Successful Cambridge Applicants Chat - 2006
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popop12345
I disagree!
LOTR is by no means a "kids book". The book probably has more depth than 98% of books, including fully thought out and developed cultures and characters most with their own meticulously developed and even usable languages.
There are masses of sub plots if one reads between the lines (ie. appendicies expand even further on anything you would want to question (i could point out numerous examples, if you want Pm me)). And the central plot is rather basic but this allows what Tolkien would call "applicability" making the book timeless and readable for all generations.
So please, call harry potter a childrens book but do not call "The Lord of the Rings" (second most read book this century after the bible and winner of recent BBC best book award) which is the life ambition of the professor of languages at Oxford to fill the gap in the mythological past of England; a mere childrens book.
I disagree!
LOTR is by no means a "kids book". The book probably has more depth than 98% of books, including fully thought out and developed cultures and characters most with their own meticulously developed and even usable languages.
There are masses of sub plots if one reads between the lines (ie. appendicies expand even further on anything you would want to question (i could point out numerous examples, if you want Pm me)). And the central plot is rather basic but this allows what Tolkien would call "applicability" making the book timeless and readable for all generations.
So please, call harry potter a childrens book but do not call "The Lord of the Rings" (second most read book this century after the bible and winner of recent BBC best book award) which is the life ambition of the professor of languages at Oxford to fill the gap in the mythological past of England; a mere childrens book.
Sorry, not convinced. Don't get me wrong, I love the book, and it certainly has depth in terms of the development of the fantasy world, but I meant depth as in stuff that makes you think. In that sense, it certainly doesn't have 'more depth than 98% of books.' It doesn't really say anything much about what it is to be human - that may sound grandiose, but books can do that without being overblown and preachy, and I think any book thats really 'adult' (hmm, makes it sound like I'm talking about porn) does it. Even Pratchett does it.
Who was it that said "If you don't think LOTR is the best book in the world when you're 13, there's something wrong with you. If you still think its the best book in the world when you're 43, there's definitely something wrong with you."
Wasn't it Terry Pratchett lol?
Terry Pratchett's T-shirt at the awards ceremony where he came joint top with Charles Dickens for having the most books named in a poll for best books was classic - "Not as dead as Dickens". hehe.
sassygirl
A lot of chidren's fantasy is fairly sophisticated. In fact, fantasy in general is required to be sophisticated. You can't have world-saving, doom-breaking heroes and heroines be immature--it just wouldn't work. I'd say what separates children's fantasy from adult fantasy is the use of language, the sensuality and violence of the novel, and the themes--if there is a lot of personal, mind-bending conflict, it is adult.
So a fantasy book is "Adult Fantasy" when it has more sex, longer words, more violence and more themes. You're just giving it an age rating. There's no such thing as Children's Fantasy. There are books aimed at kids, but anyone can read them. The adult fantasy books you describe are not appropriate or accessible to kids, but that doesn't make them any better. That would be like saying that only children can watch U-rated movies and adults should watch 18's all the time because they are more sophisticated.
Are you sure, when you say it's "adult", you don't just mean you like it more?
I quite liked LOTR. I liked the trolls and the sense of impending doom. I liked the battles and the clarity with which Tolkien describes the battle between Good and Evil - just because life isn't that simple doesn't mean literature can't be. So it's idealist, why's that a problem? It's nice to have simple, dependable characters who you can trust to react consistently to new situations.
But mostly I liked the trolls and the battles.
Finally someone who feels the same way I do! 
Loocy
I also kind of found the depth of the whole world a bit TOO much
correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the point of having such depth to be so that you can kinda lose yourself in the book? i myself find the depth he goes into with the history and culture and languages the thing that makes me love it so much, it's like an escape...
Loocy
I reeeally couldn't get into LOTR. At all. But I'm not exactly a fantasy fan, so I think that's partly why; I also kind of found the depth of the whole world a bit TOO much, much of the time I just wished he'd get on with the plot instead of having another elf song or whatever.
^ *fancies that*
Fantasy doesn't really appeal to me - there's too much of interest in the real world! (FYI Harry Potter *is* the real world.)
mr jim
correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the point of having such depth to be so that you can kinda lose yourself in the book? i myself find the depth he goes into with the history and culture and languages the thing that makes me love it so much, it's like an escape...
Well yeah, but only if it doesn't become so all-consuming that you lose sight of the plot.
Stop singing in Elvish and do something!
Hmph. I loved LotR because of the depth etc...though I'll concede that I always skip the Elvish songs...but other than that I couldn't fault the books. Wouldn't say they were children's books...I may've read them for the first time when I was eight, but that's entirely beside the point. I struggled a little then, and I was a very advanced reader. Read them again when I was twelve(ish...give or take three years...) and managed them fine. But I should reiterate the fact I'm a freak.
Haven't read them in a while though, so the less obvious faults could be fogged by the mists of time.
The Silmarillion, now...that was a bit mental.
Haven't read them in a while though, so the less obvious faults could be fogged by the mists of time.
The Silmarillion, now...that was a bit mental.
I first read it when I was ten - there's more than one freak here. 
On the difference between adult and children's fantasy - that was probably the wrong terminology to use. The way I was thinking of the categories, there was stuff in 'childrens' that certainly wasn't suitable for children - David Gemmel, for example. Maybe 'serious' and 'entertainment' would be better, but again that kind of misses the point - it suggests that 'serious' isn't entertaining and that 'entertainment' is totally without substance. I think I have to disagree with Sassygirl and say most fantasy isn't sophisticated at all - its just fun having these magical alternative worlds and big battles between good and evil. Unfortunately, this puts off people who don't like that, when the best fantasy is actually using alternative worlds to look in a different way at the real world. Ursula Le Guin is a master of that. Stephen Donaldson and Thomas Covenant is anoher great example - a leper who gives up on life only to be forced into trying to save a world he cannot bring himself to fully believe in beats a bunch of hobbits anyday IMO.
On the difference between adult and children's fantasy - that was probably the wrong terminology to use. The way I was thinking of the categories, there was stuff in 'childrens' that certainly wasn't suitable for children - David Gemmel, for example. Maybe 'serious' and 'entertainment' would be better, but again that kind of misses the point - it suggests that 'serious' isn't entertaining and that 'entertainment' is totally without substance. I think I have to disagree with Sassygirl and say most fantasy isn't sophisticated at all - its just fun having these magical alternative worlds and big battles between good and evil. Unfortunately, this puts off people who don't like that, when the best fantasy is actually using alternative worlds to look in a different way at the real world. Ursula Le Guin is a master of that. Stephen Donaldson and Thomas Covenant is anoher great example - a leper who gives up on life only to be forced into trying to save a world he cannot bring himself to fully believe in beats a bunch of hobbits anyday IMO.
You seem to have twisted my argument into a good book/bad book argument, that is not what i was actually addressing initially and I don’t think we could come to a reasonable agreement on that as it is all a matter of perspective.
Imp not sure what you would have Tolkien do to further 'characterise' the characters, and if you judge this in terms of how or 'crazy' they are; then perhaps they are to easy too relate to?
Well sorry it did, and what is this claim based on?
Im sure you'll agree that many other books have fans and and if it was that easy to biase the poll then surely harry potter with its constant and current fanfare of media hype would have won outright. And sorry as the mathematicians will hopefully agree that when 0.75 million votes are counted, a few extra fanatics on phones don’t stand a chance at swinging it!
I've read some very popular books that are so awful I want to vomit.
I agree, but again that is your personal opinion, and if a good book cannot be judged by its popularity (due to applicability) and timelessness, then?
And the omission of sex is just glaringly and jarringly obvious
This is completely irrelevant to the quality of a book , many modern books are ruined by an excess of it, almost falling into perversion! If you want sex yes youll need to look else ware!
Ive got to agree with you there.
but this just illustrates how it simply cannot be a children’s book, the overall plot is much to complex and spans over such a massive timeframe and there are many parts which make it unsuitable for children, there are some parts which approach horror (yes not 'King' type horror) if that’s how it can be judged kid/non kid, some of you may have more recently seen the films which you are now basing your opinions on, personally I think the films should have been rated 15 or 18 to really portray it all.
Well thanks for an outlet for a bit of disscussion people!
Imp not sure what you would have Tolkien do to further 'characterise' the characters, and if you judge this in terms of how
insane
LotR didn't win the best book award, really. It doubt that if a proper survey was done, it would come no.1. It has very obsessive fans that are willing to dial a number multiple times, that's all
Well sorry it did, and what is this claim based on?
Im sure you'll agree that many other books have fans and and if it was that easy to biase the poll then surely harry potter with its constant and current fanfare of media hype would have won outright. And sorry as the mathematicians will hopefully agree that when 0.75 million votes are counted, a few extra fanatics on phones don’t stand a chance at swinging it!
I've read some very popular books that are so awful I want to vomit.
I agree, but again that is your personal opinion, and if a good book cannot be judged by its popularity (due to applicability) and timelessness, then?
And the omission of sex is just glaringly and jarringly obvious
This is completely irrelevant to the quality of a book , many modern books are ruined by an excess of it, almost falling into perversion! If you want sex yes youll need to look else ware!
The Silmarillion, now...that was a bit mental.
Ive got to agree with you there.
but this just illustrates how it simply cannot be a children’s book, the overall plot is much to complex and spans over such a massive timeframe and there are many parts which make it unsuitable for children, there are some parts which approach horror (yes not 'King' type horror) if that’s how it can be judged kid/non kid, some of you may have more recently seen the films which you are now basing your opinions on, personally I think the films should have been rated 15 or 18 to really portray it all.
Well thanks for an outlet for a bit of disscussion people!
wanderer
I first read it when I was ten - there's more than one freak here.
On the difference between adult and children's fantasy - that was probably the wrong terminology to use. The way I was thinking of the categories, there was stuff in 'childrens' that certainly wasn't suitable for children - David Gemmel, for example. Maybe 'serious' and 'entertainment' would be better, but again that kind of misses the point - it suggests that 'serious' isn't entertaining and that 'entertainment' is totally without substance. I think I have to disagree with Sassygirl and say most fantasy isn't sophisticated at all - its just fun having these magical alternative worlds and big battles between good and evil. Unfortunately, this puts off people who don't like that, when the best fantasy is actually using alternative worlds to look in a different way at the real world. Ursula Le Guin is a master of that. Stephen Donaldson and Thomas Covenant is anoher great example - a leper who gives up on life only to be forced into trying to save a world he cannot bring himself to fully believe in beats a bunch of hobbits anyday IMO.
On the difference between adult and children's fantasy - that was probably the wrong terminology to use. The way I was thinking of the categories, there was stuff in 'childrens' that certainly wasn't suitable for children - David Gemmel, for example. Maybe 'serious' and 'entertainment' would be better, but again that kind of misses the point - it suggests that 'serious' isn't entertaining and that 'entertainment' is totally without substance. I think I have to disagree with Sassygirl and say most fantasy isn't sophisticated at all - its just fun having these magical alternative worlds and big battles between good and evil. Unfortunately, this puts off people who don't like that, when the best fantasy is actually using alternative worlds to look in a different way at the real world. Ursula Le Guin is a master of that. Stephen Donaldson and Thomas Covenant is anoher great example - a leper who gives up on life only to be forced into trying to save a world he cannot bring himself to fully believe in beats a bunch of hobbits anyday IMO.
Im sorry but how does Ursula do it any better than Tolkien??
popop12345
Im sorry but how does Ursula do it any better than Tolkien??
By engaging with reality. By experimenting with hypothetical social, political, and sexual environments, into which she puts very human characters. She uses fantastic situations to look at what we take for granted in normal life.
wanderer
By engaging with reality. By experimenting with hypothetical social, political, and sexual environments, into which she puts very human characters. She uses fantastic situations to look at what we take for granted in normal life.
sorry i didnt pick up on masses of that in the earthsea quartet, well suppose the sisteres with the maze..
I may sound like a gert philistine, but I don't really look for what may be described as 'substance' in a book, and I just go for the good fun, I get touched about simple things and the simple morals (maybe why I am a little interested in starting up reading fairytale) - Anyone know of any good places to start me off, other than Grimm brothers / Andersen?
Anyone remember Storyteller on TV, great fun that.
Anyone remember Storyteller on TV, great fun that.
popop12345
sorry i didnt pick up on masses of that in the earthsea quartet, well suppose the sisteres with the maze..
The Earthsea Quartet isn't really what I was referring to - more things like the Left Hand of Darkness, The Dispossessed, and The Birthday of the World and Other Stories - but there is still depth in there. The interesting thing there is that they're all about different things. A Wizard of Earthsea is about adulthood, basically. About having to deal with and accept a flawed world and the fact that you yourself are flawed. Ged making the choice to change from hunter to hunted, turning to face the shadow and chasing it down, before naming it with his own name, and thereby overcoming it - the symbolism is incredibly powerful, and made a profound impression on me when I was younger. There are different ideas expressed in the others - The Farthest Shore is about the nature of power, for example.
I'll admit that most of the Le Guin stuff I was referring to is technically SF, but I reckon it reads more like fantasy. Like many good writers, she blurs the boundaries.
KAISER_MOLE
I may sound like a gert philistine, but I don't really look for what may be described as 'substance' in a book, and I just go for the good fun, I get touched about simple things and the simple morals (maybe why I am a little interested in starting up reading fairytale) - Anyone know of any good places to start me off, other than Grimm brothers / Andersen?
You've got time to read? Don't you get a strange guilty feeling whenever you're doing something that isn't a STEP paper?
Have done 4 STEP questions tonight so am feeling alright
I suppose I prefer low brow computer games/television, final fantasy is amazing, first time I played a final fantasy game, around about when I just turned 13, I was overawed (FFIX, the most whimsical) ...it is interesting to consider how different things can be expressed through different mediums and be received by different senses, and how they can blend together.
I suppose I prefer low brow computer games/television, final fantasy is amazing, first time I played a final fantasy game, around about when I just turned 13, I was overawed (FFIX, the most whimsical) ...it is interesting to consider how different things can be expressed through different mediums and be received by different senses, and how they can blend together.
Quote:
So a fantasy book is "Adult Fantasy" when it has more sex, longer words, more violence and more themes. You're just giving it an age rating. There's no such thing as Children's Fantasy. There are books aimed at kids, but anyone can read them. The adult fantasy books you describe are not appropriate or accessible to kids, but that doesn't make them any better. That would be like saying that only children can watch U-rated movies and adults should watch 18's all the time because they are more sophisticated.
Are you sure, when you say it's "adult", you don't just mean you like it more?
I like reading children's and adult books. In many ways, I prefer children's books. And, yes, I'm just giving it an age rating. But the argument here is whether LotR is children's or adult's fantasy so I had to try to define what made children's fantasy (most of which isn't JUST for children anyway) and what makes an adult fantasy (okay, that definitely sounds like porn!)
I quite liked LOTR. I liked the trolls and the sense of impending doom. I liked the battles and the clarity with which Tolkien describes the battle between Good and Evil - just because life isn't that simple doesn't mean literature can't be. So it's idealist, why's that a problem? It's nice to have simple, dependable characters who you can trust to react consistently to new situations.
But mostly I liked the trolls and the battles.
Dude, I read romance novels. The vast majority of romance novels have pretty clear-cut good/bad guys. The heroes are quite villainous.. but romance is comparatively formulaic. You KNOW they're going to get together before you even open the book! You can even be sure that they're going to have a baby in an epilogue. And, if he's poor, he inherits a fortune somewhere in the middle of the book. Romance is THE most idealist genre. Men you fall in love with never cheat, the sex is always great etc. etc.
I like trolls and battles too, but just not the way Tolkien tells them.
So a fantasy book is "Adult Fantasy" when it has more sex, longer words, more violence and more themes. You're just giving it an age rating. There's no such thing as Children's Fantasy. There are books aimed at kids, but anyone can read them. The adult fantasy books you describe are not appropriate or accessible to kids, but that doesn't make them any better. That would be like saying that only children can watch U-rated movies and adults should watch 18's all the time because they are more sophisticated.
Are you sure, when you say it's "adult", you don't just mean you like it more?
I like reading children's and adult books. In many ways, I prefer children's books. And, yes, I'm just giving it an age rating. But the argument here is whether LotR is children's or adult's fantasy so I had to try to define what made children's fantasy (most of which isn't JUST for children anyway) and what makes an adult fantasy (okay, that definitely sounds like porn!)
I quite liked LOTR. I liked the trolls and the sense of impending doom. I liked the battles and the clarity with which Tolkien describes the battle between Good and Evil - just because life isn't that simple doesn't mean literature can't be. So it's idealist, why's that a problem? It's nice to have simple, dependable characters who you can trust to react consistently to new situations.
But mostly I liked the trolls and the battles.
Dude, I read romance novels. The vast majority of romance novels have pretty clear-cut good/bad guys. The heroes are quite villainous.. but romance is comparatively formulaic. You KNOW they're going to get together before you even open the book! You can even be sure that they're going to have a baby in an epilogue. And, if he's poor, he inherits a fortune somewhere in the middle of the book. Romance is THE most idealist genre. Men you fall in love with never cheat, the sex is always great etc. etc.
I like trolls and battles too, but just not the way Tolkien tells them.
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