Insanity : The Anti-Ciccu Mission Thread

toto8462

This is hypocritical. You saying christianity is a lie is no different to saying christianity is true. There is no more evidence upon which to decide it is a lie as there is to decide it is truthful. Its all a matter of belief and oppinion. The argument is all too facile for me im afraid.

Surely the amount of evidence is the same? The question is whether it points to Christianity being false or not. Positing the idea of a god, like any other theory, requires evidence. You can't expect people to actively falsify any theory you come up with. I would say that Christians have so far failed to make any sort of case for the existence (let alone omnipotence) of their god.

Reply 43

DrCube

However, were you actually able to levitate, regardless of evidence, one would clearly be wrong to call you a liar.

As far as I am aware lying implies some element of deception or knowledge that what is being said is false. Presuming that at least some people are honest with regards to what they claim to believe; I can't really see that explaining those beliefs can be said to be lying (without proof of course).

Why call people liars when what you're really saying is "I disagree"?

You might still call it lying when the statement is not based on any kind of evidence or rational thought, since they have no reason to think that what they say is true.

Reply 44

DrCube

oldthrashbarg

I would say that Christians have so far failed to make any sort of case for the existence (let alone omnipotence) of their god.

Well that's nice to know, I'm sure they think they have.

oldthrasbarg

You might still call it lying when the statement is not based on any kind of evidence or rational thought, since they have no reason to think that what they say is true.

I disagree. Speaking without evidence (of the truth or otherwise of whatever you're saying) doesn't make one a liar, just uninformed. Lacking rational thought doesn't either (foolish maybe). Also I think you'll find they (usually) do have a reason to think what they say is true, you might not follow their reasoning but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Reply 45

CamSPSer

Seriously, leave them alone, if people are stupid enough to associate ciccu with all christians then they aren't worth associating with. I don't associate ciccu with the whole of christianity at cambridge and i dont know anyone stupid enough to (whether christian, atheist or any other religion). Although I disagree with them I think they should be allowed to do what they do, they provide a meaningful structure to a lot of peoples lives. I've seen one or two people go from being utter idiots, taking drugs and screwing about, to becoming evangelical christians and despite the annoyance of avoiding being converted every 5 minutes its anexcellent change on their behalf. Am sick to death of christians and atheists not realising the benefit of this

Also if it was a muslim group doing this they would get nowhere near as much crap

Reply 46

apd35

cambridgemuscle

The poster campaign isn't really that funny really.

However.... My political mates and I got wasted after Thursday's debate and decided I should run for CUSU President on a New Christian Right agenda. I would turn up at CICCU meetings starting this week with the campaign they're doing and try and co-opt their support.

At CUSU hustings I could answer questions with 'Are you some sort of liberal East Coast girly man' and so forth. Other people thought of proposing 'prayer before CUSU council', getting rid of contraceptive campaigns and replacing CUSU Welfare with the 'CUSU Department Of Faith and Religiosity.'

Surely that would be decent satire, no??

I remember that conversation well, I was the random non-CULC member involved in that conversaton.

Reply 47

musicbloke

17

cambridgemuscle

The poster campaign isn't really that funny really.

However.... My political mates and I got wasted after Thursday's debate and decided I should run for CUSU President on a New Christian Right agenda. I would turn up at CICCU meetings starting this week with the campaign they're doing and try and co-opt their support.

At CUSU hustings I could answer questions with 'Are you some sort of liberal East Coast girly man' and so forth. Other people thought of proposing 'prayer before CUSU council', getting rid of contraceptive campaigns and replacing CUSU Welfare with the 'CUSU Department Of Faith and Religiosity.'

Surely that would be decent satire, no??

Nah, we already have adequate satire thanks. Sabbs (or one particular sabb) turning up drunk to things, a president who sits their texting her mates and not listening whilst a fellow sabb sums up a motion of no confidence against her, a president who refuses to have sabb meetings, a services officer who has no mobile phone or email at home so is uncontactable when she's not at the office, people in power who are perfectly happy to try and disenfranchise those who have the least power etc ad nauseam.

MB

Reply 48

DrCube

Well that's nice to know, I'm sure they think they have.

I disagree. Speaking without evidence (of the truth or otherwise of whatever you're saying) doesn't make one a liar, just uninformed. Lacking rational thought doesn't either (foolish maybe). Also I think you'll find they (usually) do have a reason to think what they say is true, you might not follow their reasoning but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Surely their reasoning is either correct or incorrect. As far as I can see Christians base their beliefs on either irrational faith (which is obviously stupid) or the bible as an accurate historical document (which it is not).

Reply 49

notyourpunk

Seriously, leave them alone, if people are stupid enough to associate ciccu with all christians then they aren't worth associating with. I don't associate ciccu with the whole of christianity at cambridge and i dont know anyone stupid enough to (whether christian, atheist or any other religion). Although I disagree with them I think they should be allowed to do what they do, they provide a meaningful structure to a lot of peoples lives. I've seen one or two people go from being utter idiots, taking drugs and screwing about, to becoming evangelical christians and despite the annoyance of avoiding being converted every 5 minutes its anexcellent change on their behalf. Am sick to death of christians and atheists not realising the benefit of this

Also if it was a muslim group doing this they would get nowhere near as much crap

This seems to me to be a very strange argument. In western society we do not normally sponsor delusions to make people conform. In my opinion we should seek truth, and then try to change society instead of compensating for its deficiencies with lies.

Reply 50

bret

12

musicbloke

Nah, we already have adequate satire thanks. Sabbs (or one particular sabb) turning up drunk to things, a president who sits their texting her mates and not listening whilst a fellow sabb sums up a motion of no confidence against her, a president who refuses to have sabb meetings, a services officer who has no mobile phone or email at home so is uncontactable when she's not at the office, people in power who are perfectly happy to try and disenfranchise those who have the least power etc ad nauseam.

MB

Surely a right-wing Christain nutcase would put the icing on the cake then. I could get Geroge W Bush and Pat Robertson's endorsment.

Reply 51

snak3uk

It's just really a combination of their blind, hypocritical arrogance, and offensive self-publicity which gets me - it seems to me that most of the time their members and activists resemble the Pharisees more closely than any disciples of Jesus.

Then there's 'grace'. These 'Christians' (and I use the term advisedly, for no roman catholic, say, methodist or anglican *counts* as 'christian' in their mindset) honestly believe that they have God's 'grace' to do whatever they wish. When I was talking to one the other day and questioning him about the relevance of some of the Old Testament (e.g. the laws on the preparation of food), the answer I got back was 'Oh, it's ok. We're Christians. Our grace will guide us in what laws to obey'

Of course I don't object to freedom of religion or expression or anything - it's just the rampant self-publicity galls a hell of a lot of people, especially when they hear some of the many *true* stories, such as this:

A couple of years ago, A girl in my college's elder brother unexpectedly died, of a massive stroke. Naturally she was completely distraught. When CICCU heard that she had been bereaved, they offered some degree of 'counselling', presented in a friendly manner (cup of tea, hugs, biscuits etc.)

After about 10 minutes of talking to the CICCU reps, the girl was asked, "So, was your brother a Christian?"
She replied, "Well, he went to church occasionally..."
She was interrupted by one of the CICCU reps, "Well, sorry, he's in hell then."

This is *actually* a true story. When I was told this the other day, I simply couldn't believe how an organisation that calls itself 'christian' could act in such a cold, callous, offensive and totally insensitive way. When I questioned a friend of mine (who is unfortunately one of the indoctrine'es) about this, notable was the 'Oh, can't be helped, it's true but maybe not the best way to go about it' attitude.

Reply 52

snak3uk

This is *actually* a true story. When I was told this the other day, I simply couldn't believe how an organisation that calls itself 'christian' could act in such a cold, callous, offensive and totally insensitive way. When I questioned a friend of mine (who is unfortunately one of the indoctrine'es) about this, notable was the 'Oh, can't be helped, it's true but maybe not the best way to go about it' attitude.

To be fair that is the only way you could expect them to react, if we accept that those are their beliefs. The problem is that they believe these things, and that their beliefs are tolerated to an extent were they are allowed to harass people such as your friend.

I think this ridiculous toleration springs purely from tradition. If someone made up a random religion today and went around telling those who had lost family members that their loved ones were even now suffering eternal torment because they did not abide by certain arbitrary rules when they were alive, it would not be accepted.

Reply 53

Mr. Jim

i agree totally on the arrogance side. there's this lad at my college who's a complete homophobe catholic (actually quite funny coz he's blatantly gay), but he doesn't just sit quietly in disapproval or even say he disapproves, he actually mouths off about how all gays should be put in prison or shot.

then the other day he was ranting about elton john getting married, and how it's not marriage unless it's in a church, and preferably a catholic one ("since protestants aren't proper christians anyway"). so i said -
"er, my parents got married in a registry office..."
to which he replied -
"oh so did my auntie, that's why i didn't go."

seriously, christianity might bring hope and whatever to some people, but others are just too impressionable to the point of becoming antisocial.

Reply 54

apd35

cambridgemuscle

Surely a right-wing Christain nutcase would put the icing on the cake then. I could get Geroge W Bush and Pat Robertson's endorsment.

Don't forget Buchanan, did you go shooting then?

Reply 55

minimo

15

I really don't understand why Catholics have a problem with gay people. I'm Catholic - and I think it woul be 'sinful' for me to dislike the gay people I know simply for who they are seeing as they are lovely.

Reply 56

toto8462

I sense a lot of hatred, but try and be fair, not all christians should be branded like this. Myself and my many of my christian friends belong to no christian denomination as such. I guess i would be classed as a protestant evangelist (so by someone elses post i probably dont qualify anyway!), and i dont know any who force it down others throats. Although i like to share my beliefs with those who are interested, i dont "harass" anyone. In fact, its paramount to my faith that people are allowed to believe what they want to believe. What is the use in forcing anyone to do anything? Sounds all to primative and barbaric to me...

Reply 57

apd35

toto8462

I sense a lot of hatred, but try and be fair, not all christians should be branded like this. Myself and my many of my christian friends belong to no christian denomination as such. I guess i would be classed as a protestant evangelist (so by someone elses post i probably dont qualify anyway!), and i dont know any who force it down others throats. Although i like to share my beliefs with those who are interested, i dont "harass" anyone. In fact, its paramount to my faith that people are allowed to believe what they want to believe. What is the use in forcing anyone to do anything? Sounds all to primative and barbaric to me...

Exactly, hence the large ant-CICCU feeling, Christianity is about being kind to your fellow man, not dogmatic indoctrination.

EDIT: Man meant in the generic sense as in mankind, I don't want any accusations of sexism now, do I?

Reply 58