Feminism!

The words aren't used with sexist intent though. It is often different for words like '******' or 'faggot' (I have left these uncensored to test the swear filter) as these do have racist/homophobic undertones. I do see where you're coming from though, but I believe in unconditional free speech even if people are racists/homophobes/fascists/any other label that is negative by consensus/etc.
So basically I think it is wrong to try to censor words, even if they upset people.
Also, just because many feminists are pro-choice, that doesn't mean that the movements should be associated with each other. They are different issues.

I wouldn't support making it illegal to use the words, but I cannot see any real reason to object to people campaigning against their use.

Well to me forcing an unborn female child to die is an 'ultimate act of repression' and a 'massive step back in women's rights'. See what I did there?
I accept your opinion and understand why you hold it, but you seem to not know where I am coming from. If, hypothetically, you believed that a foetus had the same rights as a grown person, would you support abortion? I think that is the most fundamental difference between our viewpoints. You believe that they don't have the same rights yet I do. The rest of our viewpoints stem from that (would you beg to differ?). You need not consider the relevance of abortion to women's rights when forming your opinion.
BTW I am definitely in favour of contraception.
Also, I don't think that abortion should be made illegal - it would still happen either way. I do however think that people should make more of an effort to use contraception and perhaps favour adoption over abortion in the event of rape/failed condom/accident/etc.
I can go into more detail about my perspective if you like?

Again, I don't think that matters (why should I be pro-choice just because most feminists are?) but seing as people will keep fixating on this, here are a few historical feminists who were pro-life (not that it matters, but I just want to show you that old school feminists had radically different views on abortion to the likes of Gloria Steinem et al. and perhaps give you some idea as to why I don't think that the issues of women's rights and abortion should be conflated):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-life_feminism#19th-century_feminists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wollstonecraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliet_Stillman_Severance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_B._Anthony (her opinion is heavilly disputed though)
http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/
http://www.feministsforlife.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists_for_Life
...and a more modern example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

I never said it was a fact, I know that it is my opinion. Why are people fixating on this? I'll remove it if you really want (it is just my opinion after all ).
...and no, intelligence is not objective.

Most of the issues you just brought up have been debated many times over on this thread. I still think the wage gap is unfair. Even if you disagree with me that women are more intelligent it is still wrong that they are paid less? No?
IMO everyone should be paid the same, or at least have the same opportunities.
BTW businesspeople are stupid. People always blame the bankers for stuff and call them greedy but I think that businesspeople (by comparison) get away with murder with the ridiculous amounts of money that they have for doing next to nothing - at least bankers work (although I agree that they earn too much, I just think that they are treated unfairly and are the target of most scapegoats).
I know that I just went off on a tangent but oh well...

I never said it was a fact, I know that it is my opinion. Why are people fixating on this? I'll remove it if you really want (it is just my opinion after all ).
...and no, intelligence is not objective.

What I find annoying is that so often people have the wrong idea of feminism- it's not their fault, but the fault of 'man- hating' ultra- feminism which really isn't feminism at all.

By the way, did anyone see this Lynx advert on the T.V. about a man building an ark and the women coming in two by two? If so, did it annoy anyone else, from a feminist perspective, or am I just being oversensitive?

I am really not getting in to a big debate about abortion right now, largely as such debates just go in circles.

I am not saying that you should, just that I have yet to meet any feminists in person who are pro-life.

good for them...merely mentioning that feminists who I personally know/have read about are not generally pro-life.

and Sarah Palin? is that a joke?

Perhaps I should make myself clearer, if you believe that intelligence is subjective, why did you talk about averages?

Oh, fair point.
I didn't mean a statistical average, I just meant it in the sense that 'some men can be intelligent and some women can be stupid' kind of way - i.e. I don't believe that all women are more intelligent than all men. You get what I'm saying?

No. I do disagree with most of her views but I like any women who make it to the top of political institutions (even Thatcher) without selling out. Also she is, without a doubt, a perfect example of a modern feminist (although ofc she is often rejected by many feminists - don't know why . Anyway, why would you think it is a joke?
I don't want to start an abortion debate on this thread either (as it would only go one way due to the abundance of pro-choice feminists) I was just trying to nip this in the bud:
Feminism =/= pro choice viewpoint

Would it be wrong if they were paid less for doing the exact same work as men? Absolutely. Do women actually get paid less for doing the exact same amount of work in the exact same job as their male counterparts? I'd say no. For the reasons I've already given (and the fact that looking at the evidence for this claim with a fine tooth comb, and a bit of common sense shows it can't be right.)

"I believe women being more intelligent is also an axiomatic fact."

Really?

Oh absolutely that isn't what feminism should be about? But it is what feminism has been associated with, because the most vocal people who claim to be feminists hold such views. And I'm afraid that while that's not what feminism was originally about, it is what the word is now associated with.

It's unfortunate.

I do now, but you make it clear that this is only your opinion.

right...

well, I guess my primary objection to them is that they are very Right Wing and personally I regard most everything about their views to be anti-equality and also contributing to oppression...but again this is perhaps a debate for another thread

I get what you're saying, but I think it is a form of fundamentalism to reject a viewpoint just because it is held by someone who is 'right-wing' or is associated with being 'right-wing' - surely you should approach all perspectives with an open mind and form your own judgement rather than rejecting it just because your peers on the left reject it.

I'm not rejecting their views, I just disagree with them very strongly...not without reason imo, I am very familiar with the Right's views on most things but I disagree with the vast majority of their views.

As long as you are not rejecting them because they are 'right-wing' then fine, it just seemed as though you were dismissing Sarah Palin's views simply because she is right-wing without considering her arguments. Also, who is 'their', I thought we were talking about Palin?
Did I miss something?

As long as you are not rejecting them because they are 'right-wing' then fine, it just seemed as though you were dismissing Sarah Palin's views simply because she is right-wing without considering her arguments. Also, who is 'their', I thought we were talking about Palin?
Did I miss something?



I know, like I said it is just my opinion (I think real-life, day-to-day experience is valid in this context but I get what you're saying - there are so many different angles here, not least the different definition of intelligence). How is it pompous just out of interest?
Also, does anyone know how I can edit the thread page thing?

Yet a few pages back you told someone that their experience insofar as women not actually being paid less than men for doing the same work, was entirely irrelevant. But your experience is relevant?