Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#1
Like most of the people on this forum, I am critical of Israel. I think that, at times, it does not show enough restraint, that it caters to the destructive needs of ultra-orthodox Jews, and that it unnecessarily restricts certain freedoms.

Unlike most people on this forum, however, I think Israel should exist, and be able to defend itself. You see, I criticise Israel not because I think it is an abomination, but because I expect better. It is, and was founded as, a secular, democratic, liberal nation. It should behave as such, and we should expect the same of Israel as we do of the UK or the US or France.

We should not expect anything of the nations that surround Israel. Their governments are oppressive, violent, and authoritarian. Their people are deeply religious, ignorant, and intolerant. Taken together, the Arab nations represent a backward, outdated, and, frankly, dangerous culture. They will, then, naturally resort to suicide bombings, naturally elect Islamist politicians, and naturally repress gays, women, and minorities.

Israel can and should be better. Even though many of its internal problems pail in comparison to those of surrounding states, they should still be criticised. It is criticism, after all, that makes the West great, that gives it ability to transform, to adapt, to progress. Israel is a part of this legacy, and it is the duty of all Westerners to ensure it remains so.
25
reply
.eXe
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#2
Report 9 years ago
#2
This is a ludicrous argument...

So Arab nations are stupid and they should be let off easily because...well...they're stupid.

But how dare Israel also be stupid?

This is basically your argument right?

Arab countries are allowed to make mistakes but Israel has to be perfect because you are expecting it to be. If Israel doesn't live up to your expectations, then you will criticize it. Nice logic there.
6
reply
Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#3
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#3
(Original post by .eXe)
This is a ludicrous argument...

So Arab nations are stupid and they should be let off easily because...well...they're stupid.

But how dare Israel also be stupid?

This is basically your argument right?

Arab countries are allowed to make mistakes but Israel has to be perfect because you are expecting it to be. If Israel doesn't live up to your expectations, then you will criticize it. Nice logic there.
Israel cannot be perfect, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

What I do expect, as I made clear in my original post, is that Israel behaves better than its neighbors. In other words, I hold Israel to a higher standard.

The Arab nations should be treated as the unreliable, violent, basket cases that they are. We should interact with them solely in order to harvest their resources (oil) and prevent terrorism (their only other notable export).
4
reply
Darth Stewie
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#4
Report 9 years ago
#4
Israel is far from perfect and has a lot of room for improvement however you can't overlook the fact they are leading the world in technological advancements and have the best human rights in that part of the world by a long way. We should continue to apply pressure for them to reform some of their less desirable policies but should also accept that they are a nation that is under constant threat of attack and realistically we can't force them to do anything. Hopefully in the coming years we will see a more secular Israel arise however if the situation doesn't change i can't really see that happening.
4
reply
.eXe
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#5
Report 9 years ago
#5
How can you hold the oppressed to a higher standard than the oppressor?

If a man kills another, how can the victim be held to a higher standard than the aggressor? I agree there have been several decisions Israel has made that are wrong but at the end of the day it is a small country, surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it. I think it deserves a little break...not tougher scrutiny.
0
reply
Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#6
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#6
(Original post by Darth Stewie)
Israel is far from perfect and has a lot of room for improvement however you can't overlook the fact they are leading the world in technological advancements and have the best human rights in that part of the world by a long way. We should continue to apply pressure for them to reform some of their less desirable policies but should also accept that they are a nation that is under constant threat of attack and realistically we can't force them to do anything. Hopefully in the coming years we will see a more secular Israel arise however if the situation doesn't change i can't really see that happening.
I don't think I was quite clear enough.

I am a Zionist, and I support Israel. It is for this reason that I criticise it and that I hold it to a higher standard.

I have nothing but contempt for the nations, and the culture, that surrounds it. But what I fear the most is that in Israel's effort to survive it will lose what makes it the best country in the region - it's Western heritage.

(Original post by .eXe)
How can you hold the oppressed to a higher standard than the oppressor?

If a man kills another, how can the victim be held to a higher standard than the aggressor? I agree there have been several decisions Israel has made that are wrong but at the end of the day it is a small country, surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it. I think it deserves a little break...not tougher scrutiny.
Refer to my statement above.

Israel is better that the countries around it so we should expect better.
2
reply
Coolkat
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#7
Report 9 years ago
#7
Israel? Pfft.. you mean PALESTINE!

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=pal...BsdnSDw&zoom=1
11
reply
Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#8
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#8
(Original post by Algorithm69)
Has it occured to you that Israel simply does not have the luxury of being in the state of geopolitical stability that Europe enjoys,and therefore does not have the luxury of allowing the same kind of freedom Europe does, and therefore we shouldn't really expect the same from it?

To be honest, for a country constantly under threat from terrorists and hated be every country around it, Israel's situation is remarkable and commendable.
I wouldn't disagree.

I would, however, hasten to add that for Israel to continue to progress it must be criticised. Not with the intent to denigrate, but with the intent to improve.

The reason, after all, that Israel has succeeded so wildly, all while remaining freer than any country around it, is that it is liberal, secular, democratic, or, in other words, Western.
0
reply
Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#9
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#9
(Original post by Coolkat)
Israel? Pfft.. you mean PALESTINE!

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=pal...BsdnSDw&zoom=1
The Palestinian situation is almost entirely of their own making. If you keep starting, and then losing, wars, then you will lose territory.
0
reply
floridadad55
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#10
Report 9 years ago
#10
(Original post by .eXe)
This is a ludicrous argument...

So Arab nations are stupid and they should be let off easily because...well...they're stupid.

But how dare Israel also be stupid?

This is basically your argument right?

Arab countries are allowed to make mistakes but Israel has to be perfect because you are expecting it to be. If Israel doesn't live up to your expectations, then you will criticize it. Nice logic there.



All detractors of Israel should visit Haifa. You will see arabs who are Israeli citizens living in a beautiful city with their jewish neighbors. They often work as doctors and lawyers. Their very existence belies the contention of the Israeli haters.

To those detractors of Israel, I see no great clamor of arabs who are Israeli citizens trying to get OUT of Israel. Does anyone else? Given that Israel is an "evil" zionist country, the Israeli government would no doubt be glad to give them a hand to leave, but I see no one asking to leave. They are, all in all, relatively happy there, especially when compared to the alternative of moving to an arab country. If a Palestinian state is eventually established, we will see how many arabs who are Israeli citizens decide to leave Israel. I doubt many will.

And as for the Palestinians purportedly wanting to make peace, the truth is that their leaders say very different things to the British and the American public than they do to their own people. There is a new book out on this subject. I actually saw a tape where a high ranking Palestinian told a large crowd not to pay any attention to what is said to the West.

For those demanding that Israel give up the occupied territories, you might remember that Israel in fact gave back Gaza. Instead of the Palestinians responding with peaceful gestures, they immediately burned down the jewish Temple that was left behind, senselessly destroyed the greenhouses that the Israelis had built, and instantaneouly started launching thousands of shells into Israel from Gaza.

Further, if the people on The Student Room are so concerned about "occupation", why not set a good example for Israel, and demand that your own country give back Gibralter or the Falklands. Or demand that Turkey get out of Cyprus, and demand that Turkey stop occupying Kurdish land (the Kurds were promised a state after WW I, but Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran refused to give it to them). Or how about demanding that China end its occupation of Tibet (which the UN condemned at the time, but with the passage of time has basically conceded as a fait accompli) ? Why is it that only Israeli occupation that is condemned?.

And why is it that those people who go bonkers every time two Palestinians are killed when Israel fires back after being subjected to a rocket attack are totally silent while Syria kills THOUSANDS of its own people, by gunning down protestors via snipers from rooftops?

And to those who complain about the actions of the right wing government in Israel, the only reason that the right wing gained power in the first place was that the Labor Party in Israeli became totally discredited in the country when their very generous (and some say foolhardy) peace overtures to Arafat (which even Bill Clinton said was a reasonably fair deal) were met with bombings of commuter busses.

I wonder how many thousands of Brits who condemn Israel benefit everyday from the incredible advances in medical and computer technology developed by Israel. I read an article recently by a CFO of a large american computer company that said that Israel has more successful new computer companies than all of Western Europe combined.

I suspect that as London slowly evolves into Londonistan, some of you may become more sympathetic to Israel's plight. The jews there don't want to live in a state where they will be outnumbered by muslims, who share little if any of their culture, history, or European/American orientation. Would you?
9
reply
.eXe
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#11
Report 9 years ago
#11
(Original post by floridadad55)
All detractors of Israel should visit Haifa. You will see arabs who are Israeli citizens living in a beautiful city with their jewish neighbors. They often work as doctors and lawyers. Their very existence belies the contention of the Israeli haters.

To those detractors of Israel, I see no great clamor of arabs who are Israeli citizens trying to get OUT of Israel. Does anyone else? Given that Israel is an "evil" zionist country, the Israeli government would no doubt be glad to give them a hand to leave, but I see no one asking to leave. They are, all in all, relatively happy there, especially when compared to the alternative of moving to an arab country. If a Palestinian state is eventually established, we will see how many arabs who are Israeli citizens decide to leave Israel. I doubt many will.

And as for the Palestinians purportedly wanting to make peace, the truth is that their leaders say very different things to the British and the American public than they do to their own people. There is a new book out on this subject. I actually saw a tape where a high ranking Palestinian told a large crowd not to pay any attention to what is said to the West.

For those demanding that Israel give up the occupied territories, you might remember that Israel in fact gave back Gaza. Instead of the Palestinians responding with peaceful gestures, they immediately burned down the jewish Temple that was left behind, senselessly destroyed the greenhouses that the Israelis had built, and instantaneouly started launching thousands of shells into Israel from Gaza.

Further, if the people on The Student Room are so concerned about "occupation", why not set a good example for Israel, and demand that your own country give back Gibralter or the Falklands. Or demand that Turkey get out of Cyprus, and demand that Turkey stop occupying Kurdish land (the Kurds were promised a state after WW I, but Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran refused to give it to them). Or how about demanding that China end its occupation of Tibet (which the UN condemned at the time, but with the passage of time has basically conceded as a fait accompli) ? Why is it that only Israeli occupation that is condemned?.

And why is it that those people who go bonkers every time two Palestinians are killed when Israel fires back after being subjected to a rocket attack are totally silent while Syria kills THOUSANDS of its own people, by gunning down protestors via snipers from rooftops?

And to those who complain about the actions of the right wing government in Israel, the only reason that the right wing gained power in the first place was that the Labor Party in Israeli became totally discredited in the country when their very generous (and some say foolhardy) peace overtures to Arafat (which even Bill Clinton said was a reasonably fair deal) were met with bombings of commuter busses.

I wonder how many thousands of Brits who condemn Israel benefit everyday from the incredible advances in medical and computer technology developed by Israel. I read an article recently by a CFO of a large american computer company that said that Israel has more successful new computer companies than all of Western Europe combined.

I suspect that as London slowly evolves into Londonistan, some of you may become more sympathetic to Israel's plight. The jews there don't want to live in a state where they will be outnumbered by muslims, who share little if any of their culture, history, or European/American orientation. Would you?
Well said. +1
1
reply
Perseveranze
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#12
Report 9 years ago
#12
Eventually they will be conquered and Palastinians will have their land back, like they have the right to.

It's quite clear that for as long as Israel exists, it can never rest without keeping one eye open at all times.
5
reply
navarre
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#13
Report 9 years ago
#13
(Original post by Perseveranze)
Eventually they will be conquered and Palastinians will have their land back, like they have the right to.

It's quite clear that for as long as Israel exists, it can never rest without keeping one eye open at all times.
Conquered by who? Stone throwing children? Third world surrounding countries with their poor armies and their own civil wars?

Even if there was some sort of aggressor that posed a serious threat to Israel, it would soon find itself remembering pretty clearly what the Six Day War was like.

Israel is here to stay. You can try and dillude yourself into thinking that it is going anywhere, but the powerless Palestinians have few friends willing to help them- and the few that exist are too pathetically weak to do much.
2
reply
Perseveranze
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#14
Report 9 years ago
#14
(Original post by navarre)
Conquered by who? Stone throwing children? Third world surrounding countries with their poor armies and their own civil wars?

Even if there was some sort of aggressor that posed a serious threat to Israel, it would soon find itself remembering pretty clearly what the Six Day War was like.

Israel is here to stay. You can try and dillude yourself into thinking that it is going anywhere, but the powerless Palestinians have few friends willing to help them- and the few that exist are too pathetically weak to do much.
Nothing like a person who delludes himself into thinking power never switches.

Chin up, me nor you will probably get to see the day it happens :mad:
0
reply
Rand
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#15
Report 9 years ago
#15
(Original post by Komnenos)
Israel cannot be perfect, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

What I do expect, as I made clear in my original post, is that Israel behaves better than its neighbors. In other words, I hold Israel to a higher standard.

The Arab nations should be treated as the unreliable, violent, basket cases that they are. We should interact with them solely in order to harvest their resources (oil) and prevent terrorism (their only other notable export).
You´re a pretty hateful person.
2
reply
greenwhale
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#16
Report 9 years ago
#16
Their people are deeply religious, ignorant, and intolerant.
This would accurately describe a large portion of the Israeli populace.
4
reply
Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#17
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#17
(Original post by Rand)
You´re a pretty hateful person.
No, I'm simply believe that Britain should act first and foremost in it's own national interest.

(Original post by greenwhale)
This would accurately describe a large portion of the Israeli populace.
No, it describes a minority (the ultra-orthodox, who make up about 8% of the adult population).

Israel is one of the most secular countries on the planet (http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/le...ous-countries/).

Also, if Israeli's were so religious and intolerant, why would Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens. Why would prosecuted religions, like the Baha'i, move their headquarters to Israel?
0
reply
adobe
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#18
Report 9 years ago
#18
(Original post by greenwhale)
This would accurately describe a large portion of the Israeli populace.
have you ever been to israel? thought not.
0
reply
Sbapu
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#19
Report 9 years ago
#19
A bunch of zionist land grabbing ******s.
3
reply
Komnenos
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#20
Report Thread starter 9 years ago
#20
(Original post by Sbapu)
A bunch of zionist land grabbing ******s.
Maybe you should go blow up some Israeli civilians, that seems to make Palestinians feel better...
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Who is winning Euro 2020

France (103)
27.39%
England (126)
33.51%
Belgium (30)
7.98%
Germany (40)
10.64%
Spain (8)
2.13%
Italy (33)
8.78%
Netherlands (13)
3.46%
Other (Tell us who) (23)
6.12%

Watched Threads

View All