ShipBroker. Watch

TheSquareMile
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Hi all,

I am aware that this is have no relevance to IB&C but I was wondering if any onw on here as some sort of experince/or knows a little about shipbroking.

If so how does compensation work within the industry? and What is the sort of work involved, is it like interdealer broking but with Cargo/Physical products?

Cheers
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TheSquareMile
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Jakeh
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I didnt know much about it, and got pwned by ICAP in an AC for not knowing their ship broking rivals. I could not find information out anywhere.
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crcr
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(Original post by Jakeh)
I didnt know much about it, and got pwned by ICAP in an AC for not knowing their ship broking rivals. I could not find information out anywhere.
I may have misunderstood but are you actually saying you couldn't find out about other shipbrokers? Did you try typing shipbrokers into google? Clarksons is publicly traded...to the OP, just as disclaimer before I say anything, I only know what I know from researching Clarksons (and other UK brokers) as investments so I am not an expert but I have talked to a few people. If your really interested look at Maritime Economics by Stopford or the Clarksons Annual Report.

Basically, the business model is the same as any broker, the main cost is staff and the pay is good. The job isn't trading products but ships so, as a very vague/oversimplified example, you might have a Greek shipowner call up Clarksons looking to lease out their boat or an oil refiner call up looking for a boat to transport some oil to their refinery. The brokers job is connect people who have ships with those who need ships. BP, for example, has a ship trading division that deals with brokers and co-ordinates all their trading (BP probably owns some ships as well btw). There are lots of divisions as certain types of products need special ships i.e chemicals and it isn't always easy to swap what a ship can carry. Most brokers usually have sale/purchase arms for people looking to buy/sell permanently and banking arms for people looking to buy newbuilds as well as port service divisions.

In my opinion, it is a great job, way more interesting than trading financial products, and is underrated by grads. Obviously, it is less flash than IB and rates aren't in a great place atm but Clarksons have weathered the storm pretty well.

EDIT: pay per employee for Clarksons was just over £200k in the last year which is decent considering that it has port services which probablly knocks down the average a bit. in other words, pay is good.
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Jakeh
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(Original post by crcr)
I may have misunderstood but are you actually saying you couldn't find out about other shipbrokers? Did you try typing shipbrokers into google? Clarksons is publicly traded...to the OP, just as disclaimer before I say anything, I only know what I know from researching Clarksons (and other UK brokers) as investments so I am not an expert but I have talked to a few people. If your really interested look at Maritime Economics by Stopford or the Clarksons Annual Report.

Basically, the business model is the same as any broker, the main cost is staff and the pay is good. The job isn't trading products but ships so, as a very vague/oversimplified example, you might have a Greek shipowner call up Clarksons looking to lease out their boat or an oil refiner call up looking for a boat to transport some oil to their refinery. The brokers job is connect people who have ships with those who need ships. BP, for example, has a ship trading division that deals with brokers and co-ordinates all their trading (BP probably owns some ships as well btw). There are lots of divisions as certain types of products need special ships i.e chemicals and it isn't always easy to swap what a ship can carry. Most brokers usually have sale/purchase arms for people looking to buy/sell permanently and banking arms for people looking to buy newbuilds as well as port service divisions.

In my opinion, it is a great job, way more interesting than trading financial products, and is underrated by grads. Obviously, it is less flash than IB and rates aren't in a great place atm but Clarksons have weathered the storm pretty well.

EDIT: pay per employee for Clarksons was just over £200k in the last year which is decent considering that it has port services which probablly knocks down the average a bit. in other words, pay is good.
Yeah, i honestly didn't find anything. I felt like such a ********, i knew ICAP rivals, I knew ICAP's derivatives, but just not ICAP shipping broker competitors..
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TheSquareMile
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(Original post by Jakeh)
Yeah, i honestly didn't find anything. I felt like such a ********, i knew ICAP rivals, I knew ICAP's derivatives, but just not ICAP shipping broker competitors..
Out of interest...What was the interview like? Was there much in the way of technical knoweledge? I have an interview Clarksons funninly enough , within there FFA division (Basically hedging Frieght risk) so any advice/tips will be useful...tbh I'm not sure if it's what I want to do, but I might aswell go to the interview

Cheers
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Jakeh
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(Original post by TheSquareMile)
Out of interest...What was the interview like? Was there much in the way of technical knoweledge? I have an interview Clarksons funninly enough , within there FFA division (Basically hedging Frieght risk) so any advice/tips will be useful...tbh I'm not sure if it's what I want to do, but I might aswell go to the interview

Cheers
The interview was mainly competency, but as I'm sure you can imagine, after the second question being, "Can you name our shipping broking competitors?" And I had none. It went all downhill haha. Not much i guess you could know at grad level about shipping in terms of technicals? Like I knew some stuff from my internship, and knew about funds buying ships now as they're going cheap and people predict the market to go back, but nothing much.
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[email protected]
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(Original post by Jakeh)
The interview was mainly competency, but as I'm sure you can imagine, after the second question being, "Can you name our shipping broking competitors?" And I had none. It went all downhill haha. Not much i guess you could know at grad level about shipping in terms of technicals? Like I knew some stuff from my internship, and knew about funds buying ships now as they're going cheap and people predict the market to go back, but nothing much.
I bet your ICAP Interview AC was better than mine. I aced the AC up until the final round interview on the first floor.

I opened the door for the HR + Broker interview, and as soon as he saw me he said "oh **** off" under his breathe haha!

I didn't get an offer for Electronic broking summer internship.

I think I came across to upper class for those brutal thugs xD
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Teenage Pirate
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(Original post by [email protected])
I bet your ICAP Interview AC was better than mine. I aced the AC up until the final round interview on the first floor.

I opened the door for the HR + Broker interview, and as soon as he saw me he said "oh **** off" under his breathe haha!

I didn't get an offer for Electronic broking summer internship.

I think I came across to upper class for those brutal thugs xD
Seeing as this is like the third post I've noticed from you talking about how upper class you are, I would've rejected you as well.

It's one thing to be from a wealthy background, it's another to constantly feel the need to broadcast it. (assuming that since you do here, you probably do it in real life as well)
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Jakeh
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(Original post by [email protected])
I bet your ICAP Interview AC was better than mine. I aced the AC up until the final round interview on the first floor.

I opened the door for the HR + Broker interview, and as soon as he saw me he said "oh **** off" under his breathe haha!

I didn't get an offer for Electronic broking summer internship.

I think I came across to upper class for those brutal thugs xD
Lol! When did you AC bro.
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[email protected]
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(Original post by Jakeh)
Lol! When did you AC bro.
Spring 2010. It was possibly the worst one I had tbh.
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Hernán Cortés
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Sorry to bump this thread but I think my post will be useful for future searches about shipbroking.

I currently work for a shipbroking company in London so would like to give my advice to anyone interested in the industry.

There are two types of shipbroking - chartering and sales & purchase (SNP).

Chartering is to do with 'fixing a ship' or a cargo. Main cargoes are bulk/wet/containers. It can be anything from coal, grain, crude oil, chemicals, fresh water, animals, cement and many others. Cargo is usually only fixed for one specific voyage between loading port(s) and discharging port(s). Chartering can also be fixing a ship to a charterer for a few months up to 5 years, from rates of $5000 - $150000+ per day. Chartering brokers usually have quite repetitive work and often work with the same clients quite frequently.

Sales and purchase (the broking I'm involved in) is to do with exactly that. SNP broking is usually better paid that chartering because the values of the ships can run into hundreds of millions of dollars, with SNP brokers taking typically 1% com (charterering brokers take 3.75%). Owners don't tend to go to brokers to buy ships very often, so a good relationship over years is needed with owners, built on trust. It is more of a long term game with work less frequently, but of greater value. SNP brokers can also be involved with the breaking of a ship (selling it to be scrapped on a beach - see Alang beach, India).

Some of the biggest shops are: Clarksons, Gibsons, Howe Robinson, Simpson Spence and Young, ACM Shipping & RS Platou.

For anyone looking to get into shipbroking it is an industry that has avoided attention. Salaries can range from 25k-4m for some of the most senior brokers in Clarksons etc. A good broker after 5 years can expect to earn around 80k. You can work and live across many countries, with salaries as good as any industry. It is a highly specialised, valued career in the shipping world.

I would suggest you read as much as you can about ship types, values, different types of cargo, broking companies and shipping hubs. Trade winds is an industry newspaper which is packed with valuable information, but is quite expensive to subscribe. You really need to stand out if you're going to make it here. Competition is tough and a lot of people get here through the 'old boy' network of contacts.

Finally if you have the time/money have a look at the Intitute of Chartered Shipbrokers website. This is the only real industry qualification and is worth considering. If you don't want to take the exams you can buy the texts books.

Drop me a line if you would like any more information.
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non
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(Original post by Hernán Cortés)
Sorry to bump this thread but I think my post will be useful for future searches about shipbroking.

I currently work for a shipbroking company in London so would like to give my advice to anyone interested in the industry.

There are two types of shipbroking - chartering and sales & purchase (SNP).

Chartering is to do with 'fixing a ship' or a cargo. Main cargoes are bulk/wet/containers. It can be anything from coal, grain, crude oil, chemicals, fresh water, animals, cement and many others. Cargo is usually only fixed for one specific voyage between loading port(s) and discharging port(s). Chartering can also be fixing a ship to a charterer for a few months up to 5 years, from rates of $5000 - $150000+ per day. Chartering brokers usually have quite repetitive work and often work with the same clients quite frequently.

Sales and purchase (the broking I'm involved in) is to do with exactly that. SNP broking is usually better paid that chartering because the values of the ships can run into hundreds of millions of dollars, with SNP brokers taking typically 1% com (charterering brokers take 3.75%). Owners don't tend to go to brokers to buy ships very often, so a good relationship over years is needed with owners, built on trust. It is more of a long term game with work less frequently, but of greater value. SNP brokers can also be involved with the breaking of a ship (selling it to be scrapped on a beach - see Alang beach, India).

Some of the biggest shops are: Clarksons, Gibsons, Howe Robinson, Simpson Spence and Young, ACM Shipping & RS Platou.

For anyone looking to get into shipbroking it is an industry that has avoided attention. Salaries can range from 25k-4m for some of the most senior brokers in Clarksons etc. A good broker after 5 years can expect to earn around 80k. You can work and live across many countries, with salaries as good as any industry. It is a highly specialised, valued career in the shipping world.

I would suggest you read as much as you can about ship types, values, different types of cargo, broking companies and shipping hubs. Trade winds is an industry newspaper which is packed with valuable information, but is quite expensive to subscribe. You really need to stand out if you're going to make it here. Competition is tough and a lot of people get here through the 'old boy' network of contacts.

Finally if you have the time/money have a look at the Intitute of Chartered Shipbrokers website. This is the only real industry qualification and is worth considering. If you don't want to take the exams you can buy the texts books.

Drop me a line if you would like any more information.
To get into this industry is it like IB where you need to get internships and get a degree from a university or do you have to take the qualifications that you mentioned as well?
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Hernán Cortés
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(Original post by non)
To get into this industry is it like IB where you need to get internships and get a degree from a university or do you have to take the qualifications that you mentioned as well?
You don't need to do anything really (if you look hard enough/get lucky/work hard/fit in).

I got into the industry without having gone to uni. I think now though it is harder, and certainly the big shops will ask for grads for their trainee schemes.

The ICS is a good course to study because It will make you stand out from other candidates and give you a great understanding of the industry.

I would certainly try to get an internship to develop some exposure.
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lego
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A friend of mine graduated with a 1st from one of the few UK universities, which offers a degree in maritime business and he could not get a job in this sector. AFAIK he was even the best student in his class, speaks 4 languages, other impressive ECs and still nothing. In his words, you need connections more than anything else to get in, pedigree does not matter that much.
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Riderz
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(Original post by lego)
A friend of mine graduated with a 1st from one of the few UK universities, which offers a degree in maritime business and he could not get a job in this sector. AFAIK he was even the best student in his class, speaks 4 languages, other impressive ECs and still nothing. In his words, you need connections more than anything else to get in, pedigree does not matter that much.
Pedigree does matter, but its the same in all small, highly specialised industries. Knowing someone will do you better than knowing 'stuff'. They get a lot of good graduates, more often than not with Masters degrees and some kind of market analyst or junior role experience - so a graduate with great paper skills but no experience isnt that valuable.

As it happens, I very nearly went down the shipbroker-ing route, but decided something else was more my cup of tea. Thing with SB is that its a fairly long term game, although you can move anywhere in the world you need a few years in one place to build up contacts, trust and knowledge. I decided I wanted something more flexible and more generic.
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non
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(Original post by Riderz)
Pedigree does matter, but its the same in all small, highly specialised industries. Knowing someone will do you better than knowing 'stuff'. They get a lot of good graduates, more often than not with Masters degrees and some kind of market analyst or junior role experience - so a graduate with great paper skills but no experience isnt that valuable.

As it happens, I very nearly went down the shipbroker-ing route, but decided something else was more my cup of tea. Thing with SB is that its a fairly long term game, although you can move anywhere in the world you need a few years in one place to build up contacts, trust and knowledge. I decided I wanted something more flexible and more generic.
So how did you almost get into ship broking? Did you use contacts, what universities and what degrees did you get? What about internships. Do you have to have a specialised degree or a generic one like IB? Also what are you doing now?
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Riderz
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(Original post by non)
So how did you almost get into ship broking? Did you use contacts, what universities and what degrees did you get? What about internships. Do you have to have a specialised degree or a generic one like IB? Also what are you doing now?
I have a generic - although reputable - management degree, from a top tier uni. As to how I almost got into it, I have contacts within the shipping industry and applied for a specialised masters degree which would have led into that line of work.

Instead of that Im off into commodity trading, currently working as a market analyst, and hope within 2 years to be in a junior trading role. Cereals and oilseeds are my specialties. The skills are pretty similar in many ways, but the agricultural industry reflects my background and interests better.
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non
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(Original post by Riderz)
I have a generic - although reputable - management degree, from a top tier uni. As to how I almost got into it, I have contacts within the shipping industry and applied for a specialised masters degree which would have led into that line of work.

Instead of that Im off into commodity trading, currently working as a market analyst, and hope within 2 years to be in a junior trading role. Cereals and oilseeds are my specialties. The skills are pretty similar in many ways, but the agricultural industry reflects my background and interests better.
I thought you needed a very quantitative degree such as Maths or physics for trading or is that just for vanilla products?
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Riderz
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(Original post by non)
I thought you needed a very quantitative degree such as Maths or physics for trading or is that just for vanilla products?
Not really, any IB or grad scheme will take only the top 0.1% of people who apply because they can afford to be selective. Look away from the grad schemes and IBs and everyone moves up with experience rather than degree classification. I know a few traders without any degree at all. You wont be trading shares, but experience is much more valuable in any commodity market, ship brokerage market, carbon credits market etc.
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