Studentus-anonymous
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basically with all this fuss about Scottish Independence in the news I'm wondering how this bears for people who aren't 100% 'pure blooded Scot' for 7 generations or something. I dunno why but it just boggles my brain.


If the SNP get their way and crown Salmond as king of his own private domain, who determines who is and isn't Scottish?

EU work and residency rights no longer apply following independence, and I can see this potential event doing nothing but fuelling xenophobia, racism and nasty nationalism.

Many English people have Scottish relatives or relatives living in Scotland long term, many Scots move down to England, marry English people or have English relatives.


Who decides if they're Scottish or not? People who have lived in Scotland for decades could potentially find themselves aliens in their own homes, potentially considered foreign or 'not quite native'.

What about people who consider themselves British living in a British territory suddenly find themselves on the 'wrong' side of the border? It seems absurd that they should suddenly consider Scotland as somehow 'foreign'.

Residents of other EU countries would suddenly find themselves without EU protections either.


Why is the SNP so obsessed with independence when there is no real political or economic mandate for it? Surely it has to be for more than some infantile kneejerk obsession with the Brave-heart movie and a unjustified grievance with highly slanted views on history?
Scotland gains nothing but gets lumped with stupid debt and political fallout, loss of influence and still economically and culturally tied to the rest of the UK as to make an international border seem utterly insane.

The Scots themselves are an amalgamation of different peoples, Picts, Britons, Gaels, Norse and even Anglo-Saxons. It's ironic that some Scots take issue with the United Kingdom while ignoring that Scotland was created in much the same fashion.


So TSR, who decides what a Scot in a 'free' Scotland is?
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tehFrance
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(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
<Snip>
Someone that has a heritage that clearly shows that the family have been in Scotland for a long time they are Scottish obviously although I am sure that someone born there would also be considered Scottish as well? the only people who are not Scottish would be those who move there à la not born there or have any previous family who were born in Scotland.

As for who decides that could be tricky although I doubt it will be much of an issue.
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Psyk
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I don't see the situation being any different to the relationship between the UK and Ireland. It wouldn't really matter if someone is a Scottish citizen or a UK citizen, because they will have equal rights in both countries. Right now Irish citizens can freely live in the UK and can vote in general elections and even run for office. I'm sure the same thing would happen with Scotland. It does still raise the question of exactly who can get Scottish citizenship, but it won't really make any practical difference to people who don't qualify for it. Scottish citizenship would probably be open to people living in Scotland on the day it becomes independent, and anyone who has at least one grandparent who was born there, or something like that. Look at Irish citizenship laws, it would probably end up being quite similar.
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L i b
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(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
basically with all this fuss about Scottish Independence in the news I'm wondering how this bears for people who aren't 100% 'pure blooded Scot' for 7 generations or something. I dunno why but it just boggles my brain.


If the SNP get their way and crown Salmond as king of his own private domain, who determines who is and isn't Scottish?
You mean 'who is an isn't a Scottish citizen'. That's separate from who is Scottish, as things stand now when Scottishness is simply a cultural identification. The answer at the moment is 'whoever has a connection with Scotland and wants to identify themselves as such'. The answer about citizenship in an independent Scotland is 'whatever the law says' - it'd be an easy enough thing to sort out really. If I had to, I'd say that citizenship should accrue automatically to anyone born in Scotland or with a parent born in Scotland and any British citizen resident in Scotland. I'd probably extend that to any person lawfully resident in Scotland should be able to opt-in.


The Scots themselves are an amalgamation of different peoples, Picts, Britons, Gaels, Norse and even Anglo-Saxons. It's ironic that some Scots take issue with the United Kingdom while ignoring that Scotland was created in much the same fashion.
The UK was formed in a far more civilised way than Scotland was. That Nationalists should moan about how the UK was formed does indeed seem like rank hypocrisy to me.
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Blue & Red Lights
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A scot is an ethnic scot, there is no such thing as a pure blood scot because ethnicity is denoted by common ancestry, heritage, physical attributes, culture, self awareness and identity.

By sayingwho isa 100% pure blood scots, shows that you have not one clue about what ethnicity is.
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username852165
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Who is Scottish?

NESSY IS!
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Arekkusu
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(Original post by Psyk)
I don't see the situation being any different to the relationship between the UK and Ireland. It wouldn't really matter if someone is a Scottish citizen or a UK citizen, because they will have equal rights in both countries. Right now Irish citizens can freely live in the UK and can vote in general elections and even run for office. I'm sure the same thing would happen with Scotland. It does still raise the question of exactly who can get Scottish citizenship, but it won't really make any practical difference to people who don't qualify for it. Scottish citizenship would probably be open to people living in Scotland on the day it becomes independent, and anyone who has at least one grandparent who was born there, or something like that. Look at Irish citizenship laws, it would probably end up being quite similar.
This, I imagine the situation would be quite permissive especially as Scotland would be joining the EU. Residency for five years or however we go about it for foreign nationals. Also Scotland must already have a way of deciding who's Scottish or not because they manage it with the tuition fees or with the healthcare breaks, that sort of devolved issue.
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Psyk
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(Original post by Arekkusu)
This, I imagine the situation would be quite permissive especially as Scotland would be joining the EU. Residency for five years or however we go about it for foreign nationals. Also Scotland must already have a way of deciding who's Scottish or not because they manage it with the tuition fees or with the healthcare breaks, that sort of devolved issue.
The tuition fee thing is based on residency. I think you have to have lived in Scotland for 3 years to qualify. Otherwise anyone would be able to get free tuition, you just have to move there before you start your course.
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Snagprophet
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When you look at it, no-one is homogeneously whatever-their-country-is. The Scots are a combination of Picts, Gaelics, Vikings, Angles and Saxons. A true, original Scot would probably be the tribe which actually came from Ireland, to be honest.
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Blue & Red Lights
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
When you look at it, no-one is homogeneously whatever-their-country-is. The Scots are a combination of Picts, Gaelics, Vikings, Angles and Saxons. A true, original Scot would probably be the tribe which actually came from Ireland, to be honest.
The current Scots today are the true Scots
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Studentus-anonymous
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(Original post by Blue & Red Lights)
The current Scots today are the true Scots
So what is the defining feature of a 'true scot'?


(Original post by Blue & Red Lights)
By sayingwho isa 100% pure blood scots, shows that you have not one clue about what ethnicity is.
Ignoring my apostrophes aside, what is ethnicity then? Where does Scottish ethnicity begin and where does it end?


(Original post by L i b)
You mean 'who is an isn't a Scottish citizen'. That's separate from who is Scottish, as things stand now when Scottishness is simply a cultural identification. The answer at the moment is 'whoever has a connection with Scotland and wants to identify themselves as such'. The answer about citizenship in an independent Scotland is 'whatever the law says' - it'd be an easy enough thing to sort out really. If I had to, I'd say that citizenship should accrue automatically to anyone born in Scotland or with a parent born in Scotland and any British citizen resident in Scotland. I'd probably extend that to any person lawfully resident in Scotland should be able to opt-in.
Dunno, I think that's my problem, right now everyone shares a common citizenship, British. Suddenly having families and what-not having to use different passports or chose between them is just...silly, especially for a separatist scheme with absolutely no justifiable basis.
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Blue & Red Lights
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(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
So what is the defining feature of a 'true scot'?




Ignoring my apostrophes aside, what is ethnicity then? Where does Scottish ethnicity begin and where does it end?




Dunno, I think that's my problem, right now everyone shares a common citizenship, British. Suddenly having families and what-not having to use different passports or chose between them is just...silly, especially for a separatist scheme with absolutely no justifiable basis.
1. The Scots are an ethnic group and anyone who is ethnically Scottish is a Scot simple.

2. Ethnicity is derived from common ancestry, heritage, culture, common physical attributes, self identity, awareness of being part of a distinct group
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FrigidSymphony
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No True Scotsman, teehee.
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L i b
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
When you look at it, no-one is homogeneously whatever-their-country-is. The Scots are a combination of Picts, Gaelics, Vikings, Angles and Saxons. A true, original Scot would probably be the tribe which actually came from Ireland, to be honest.
By historic definition, perhaps. 'Scoti' was a Roman term for Irish raiders who used to attack western Britain. They established a kingdom on the west coast of Scotland, intermingled with the Picts and eventually managed to blunder their way into Brythonic Strathclyde and the Anglic Lothians. But of course, even they were probably a ******* conglomeration of different races.
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NR09
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Right now Westminster has full say on economic, foreign policy and Military matters in Scotland and the SNP want to change that. That is ultimately why they want independance, so that the Scottish government has full control over what happens in Scotland. I don't understand why people are so enraged by this.
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L i b
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(Original post by NR09)
Right now Westminster has full say on economic, foreign policy and Military matters in Scotland and the SNP want to change that. That is ultimately why they want independance, so that the Scottish government has full control over what happens in Scotland. I don't understand why people are so enraged by this.
Because most of us reject nationalism as a backward and divisive ideology. Simply stating what the SNP want, which I find totally unacceptable, is not as important as why they want it.

I also note that you use the term 'Scottish government' for the administration in Edinburgh, yet the UK-wide administration in London somehow becomes 'Westminster'. A cheap rhetorical trick.
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Snagprophet
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(Original post by NR09)
Right now Westminster has full say on economic, foreign policy and Military matters in Scotland and the SNP want to change that. That is ultimately why they want independance, so that the Scottish government has full control over what happens in Scotland. I don't understand why people are so enraged by this.
You mean the British government has full say on economic, foreign and military matters in Britain? I mean, **** me, god damn a government in Paris having say on matters in Bordeaux. **** them.

I imagine a government in Edinburgh having full say on economic, foreign and military matters in Inverness is fine then?
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Bhumbauze
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(Original post by L i b)
Because most of us reject nationalism as a backward and divisive ideology.
Not too long ago I'd have agreed but, after 6 months living back in Scotland after 2 years in England, I honest to god don't see how it could possibly get any worse here. Small-town Scotland is ****ed. Properly, miserably ****ed. There's still money (and employment prospects) in Glasgow and Edinburgh and, to an extent, in the South West and Borders but other than that... it's a series of Junkie-infested, decaying, jobless hell-holes. Honestly, I moved from a comparable town in northern England to where I am now - ex-industrial, semi-commutable, fairly chavvy - and by comparison, the town I moved from was some sort of paradise. I'm not brushed-up enough on the distribution of wealth throughout the UK to say exactly what is going wrong, but I can state for an absolute fact that something is very wrong in Scotland. In these towns I genuinely can't see it getting much worse.
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cl_steele
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my dads scottish, my grand dad is scottish, my great grand dad is scottish etc. etc. etc. i was born in England and am therefore British ... enough of this crappy english scottish divide there is no difference ... be proud and be brittish.
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NR09
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(Original post by L i b)
Because most of us reject nationalism as a backward and divisive ideology. Simply stating what the SNP want, which I find totally unacceptable, is not as important as why they want it.

I also note that you use the term 'Scottish government' for the administration in Edinburgh, yet the UK-wide administration in London somehow becomes 'Westminster'. A cheap rhetorical trick.
Why do you find what the SNP want totally unacceptable? Alex Salmond has said numerous times that if Scotland were to gain independance we would keep the queen as head of state, and would allow people to continue to move around Britain and live where they want. There is nothing divisive about what they say other than that they want full Scottish rule for Scotland.

And I wasn't using "a cheap rhetoric trick" but was simply stating what each government is commonly known as. The UK government is referred to as "Westminster" because that is the area of London in which it is based. I wasn't aware that the Scottish government was called Edinburgh? (I suppose Holyrood is a possibility but it is still not commonly referred to that by people or the media.)
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