Oxford or UCL for law

Reply 20

14

I'll ignore your tortured prose for now.

With respect, you've referred to one particular chambers (albeit a large one) which specialises in criminal and human rights law. That, on its own, is not representative of the profession as a whole - especially not the commercial bar which makes up a substantial proportion. Furthermore, it comes as no surprise to see that their website says that the institution where you studied doesn't matter - they are hardly likely to say "Applicants from Oxbridge only please" are they?

Take a look at the following article in the Times last year. A survey of the top 8 chambers found that 89% of barristers under the age of 39 had been to Oxbridge. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,4003-1621285,00.html

Chalks.

Reply 21

lukeyboy

1

it isnt just their website, my point is that i did a mini-pupillage there and got advice regarding my career from the head of chambers @ 2gc. The proclaimed 'institution doesnt matter' is truly their philosophy, one of the Barristers i was shadowing came from an ex-poly, another from Manchester. Though i accept your point that many go to oxbridge it is important to note that many had also attended other good departments ("If they had not been to Oxbridge, they had attended one of the other the universities with the most highly rated law departments" which includes UCL). My point may have been jaded by my emotive response but what i meant to say was there is little difference in the prestige between UCL and oxford for Law, surely it is more important for you to go where you feel suited and comfortable and indeed many chambers take a more liberal approach. Interestingly enough, the most important thing that both 2 garden court and another chamber barrister said to me was "dont get a degree in law, get a degree in history, politics, philosophy, ppe then convert". I do take your point though chalks, a large amount of barristers come from oxbridge, this is undeniable, but as is the fact that if your well prepared and suited to the role of a barrister there is a still a fair chance of you getting a position, especially at a chambers such as 2gc.

Reply 22

PDJM

4

"you'll find that the best Barristers chambers dont take into account where your degree comes from"

You may be interested in carrying out a quick glance over the CVs of the most junior members (ie the most recent intake) of leading chambers such as Blackstone, Essex Court, One Essex Court, Brick Court, Fountain Court, Maitland and Wilberforce (which no-one contests are some of London's finest Chambers) that those with an Oxbridge degree are predominant. That is not to say that an Oxbridge education is necessary- but it would appear to be an advantage.

Reply 23

lukeyboy

1

Of course, PDJM i have just accepted that my comment was somewhat egregious. I think for a left wing, labour activist such as me Two Garden Court is where i want to go and im already quite connected there, so i make somewhat blasé generalisations based on my experience which i shouldnt. For that i apologise, however, i still believe that its more important to always do what makes you happy, and in the case of Oakes i'd always say dont go for prestige, go for whats going to suit you personally. Treat every moment as an end with in itself and not a means to an end "for the lord of the dead waits not for the done or the undone"

Reply 24

bryan

10

Alias667

Interestingly enough, the most important thing that both 2 garden court and another chamber barrister said to me was "dont get a degree in law, get a degree in history, politics, philosophy, ppe then convert".

Did they explain why?

Reply 25

lukeyboy

1

Yes actually, they said that in a Law degree you dont do that much jurisprudence or critique of law, you are mostly learning how to apply the law and all the various precedents and statutes. They said that to have a grounding in a subject that requires articulation, expression and informed opinion to then convert to law to gain the basic necesary knowledge is ideal as you also have a wider intellectual experience, a grounding in politics and the philosophy of law and justice. You also come out as a more rounded person with a greatest span of knowledge. Neither of the tenants i shadowed had straight law degrees, both were conversions and they and the head of chambers advised me to do the same.

Reply 26

chalks

14

Doing a non-law degree can be a sensible option for a number of reasons.

However, I don't understand why you think that "a grounding in politics and the philosophy of law and justice" will be a benefit to you in practice as either a barrister or a solicitor? I'm not criticising you - I'm simply testing what you say.

Reply 27

lukeyboy

1

Yes, they said that a degree such as ppe or politics and philosophy gives you an invaluable grounding in articulation, expression and jurisprudence that you wouldnt get in a regular law degree. You can increase your knowledge in multiple disciplines then get the basic statutes and precedent you need to practice in your conversion course / law school.

They also indicated that there are so many law graduates now (30,000 p/y is it ?) that its hard to distinguish between them (possibly this is where the confusion about institution prestige earlier came from), so having a different degree and a conversion makes you stand out more as a candidate who is better informed than the average law graduate.

oops, sorry, it didnt appear so i had to rewrite it.

in response to chalks, Marina (tenant) explained it to me as to construct an argument thats convincing to the Jury, you often involves things that arent law. Politics etc racial climate, current events, tension is very important in the structure of your argument. there have also been cases for example darrow (lawyer) got his clients sentence reduced on a purely philosophical argument that convinced the judge/jury on the basis of hard determinism(dont quote me on that as id have to consult my textbooks, and i do believe it was in america but theres been similar things in the uk.

it is darrow, heres the link to Clarence Darrow's summation http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/leoploeb/LEO_SUMD.HTM

Reply 28

chalks

14

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read that - I'll try to at some point.

Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I don't see much scope for you to wheel out purely philosophical arguments when you're defending a shoplifter or a guy on a common assault charge.

Anyway, I have work to do. Best of luck in whatever you choose to do.

Reply 29

bryan

10

chalks

Doing a non-law degree can be a sensible option for a number of reasons.

What are the benefits of doing a non-law degree?

Reply 30

lukeyboy

1

theyve already been explained. pretty much. fair enough chalks, but its happened !

Reply 31

chalks

14

First and foremost, the opportunity to study a subject which you have a real passion for. Sometimes I wish I had studied English at Uni, rather than law for example. Continuing to study a language would be another good example.

Experience of another discipline does, arguably, make you a more well-rounded candidate.

Some argue that you may have a better chance of getting a higher degree result by studying a subject other than law. That can only help come application time.

Doing a non-law degree means you keep your career options open longer.

Just some thoughts.

Reply 32

bryan

10

chalks

First and foremost, the opportunity to study a subject which you have a real passion for. Sometimes I wish I had studied English at Uni, rather than law for example. Continuing to study a language would be another good example.

Experience of another discipline does, arguably, make you a more well-rounded candidate.

Some argue that you may have a better chance of getting a higher degree result by studying a subject other than law. That can only help come application time.

Doing a non-law degree means you keep your career options open longer.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks!

Reply 33

different?

2

*sniff* Although I agree the person should take Oxford, this whole UCL is nowhere near as good emphasis etc etc is not good for enforcing the message to Oxford rejects like me, that not getting into Oxford is by no means the end of the world concerning one's future. It's not the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination.

Reply 34

helki

1

Oxford- (nuff said)

Reply 35

pixikicks

The year in America is only available to people who do considerably well in their first year - otherwise there really is no point in applying for it. Also, it is only available to a couple of people each year, literally two or three.

I'd say go for Oxford. If you get a good degree, it's easy enough to sit the American exams to convert.

Reply 36

President_Ben

15

I'm surprised the video hasn't been posted on this thread.

Career speaking, Oxford sounds like the safe and sound bet. Lawyers at UCL though... they really do have the f.ing time of their life.

Reply 37

different?

2

President_Ben

I'm surprised the video hasn't been posted on this thread.

Career speaking, Oxford sounds like the safe and sound bet. Lawyers at UCL though... they really do have the f.ing time of their life.