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    There is quite a vast difference between legitimate democracy and the version that led to the election of Hamas. True democracy does not elect armed groups in to power. And seeing as the German delegate is so fixated with the Oslo Accords, how about we mention the fact that as a terrorist, rejectionist group, Hamas had NO legal right to be running in the election in the first place? Their very participation breached the Oslo Accords in a fundamental way. And now the foolish delegate seeks to base a claim on those same accords? The hypocrisy would be astounding, did it not come from the particular delegate in question.

    Pay their employees?! Micronesia feels that a large number of Hamas members may find themselves on a pay roll of the PA now and does not think that Israel should be paying their wages. And what work has Germany done exactly? It's simply handed over money as part of the EU, ignoring all reports of the use of that money for terror and the utter corruption of the PA. Germany has done little if anything to work towards peace and its absurd demands can only damage the region further.

    To move on to France - 'of the PA itself as a democratic organisation which itself is trying to bring about peace'. Hah! You are joking, right? Or are you missing the fundamental fact that the PA is now UNDER THE CONTROL OF HAMAS. A TERRORIST GROUP. How does a PA under the control of Hamas work towards peace, exactly?

    This display of craven cowardice and sick appeasement of terrorism by the EU is sick. Moral-turpitude, backwards attitudes and the idea of making insane demands are obviously alive and well in the EU.
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    I'll ask again. Do the Palestinians not deserve democracy?
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    The Marshall Islands would like to point out that governments all over the world freeze the assets of terrorist groups, fronts and groups linked to terrorism. The US does and EU countries do it on a fairly wide scale in order to stop the funds going towards terrorism. You could make the argument that that money rightfully belongs to those terrorist groups, but France, Germany, the US et al have never seemed particularly swayed by that viewpoint. So why, when it comes to Israel stopping the open flow of funds to a terrorist group are France and Germany acting with such alarming and strange double-standards? Does Israel not have the right to stop funds falling in to the hands of terrorists, whether those funds rightfully belong to that terror group or not? France and Germany do it, why not Israel? Horrific double-standards and appeasement of Islamic terror? Hmm?
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    (Original post by Carl)
    I'll ask again. Do the Palestinians not deserve democracy?
    According to Freedom House and other institutions that monitor democracy, they don't have it.
    The Palestinian-Authority Administered Territories have a rather pathetic 5 for political rights and an even worse 6 for civil liberties in the 2005 report, giving it an overall 'Not Free' Status. It's much vaunted democracy is in reality far short of the standards that actually constitute a working democratic system.
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    When those groups have democratic legitimacy and form the majority of the PA, why should Israel stop giving money to the PA? Note it is the PA who is no longer receiving money; since when were the money going to Hamas?

    Lone Fox: irrelevant. Hamas were democratically elected and thus have democratic legitimacy. I'll ask for a third time. Do the Palestinians deserve democracy?
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    (Original post by Carl)
    When those groups have democratic legitimacy and form the majority of the PA, why should Israel stop giving money to the PA? Note it is the PA who is no longer receiving money; since when were the money going to Hamas?
    I think your first question answers your second. The money has been going to Hamas ever since Hamas formed the majority in the PA.
    Hamas, a terrorist group, AS ACKNOWLEDGED BY FRANCE AND GERMANY, will be deciding what the money that Israel gives the PA is to be spent on. And something tells The Marshall Islands that some of it may end up being spent on personnel and equipment that pose a serious threat to Israel. So when you're quite finished making the obscene and deranged demand that Israel hand over millions of dollars to be spent at the whim of a bunch of people who are committed to its destruction, we can start having civilised debate again. Until that point, The Marshall Islands condemns the heinous and disgusting viewpoints expressed by the deplorable delegates.

    (Original post by Carl)
    Lone Fox: irrelevant. Hamas were democratically elected and thus have democratic legitimacy.
    I'm sorry, why is that relevant when they still maintain all the same goals as they did previously? Is France saying that were a group who perpetrated scores of terorr attacks on French civilians voted in to power in a country that France would happily start funding that group and aiding it in carrying out its objectives solely because it had 'democratic legitimacy'. The ridiculous, obscene and pathetic nature of the demands is clear for all to see. You are demanding that Israel fund terror against its own population. Then again, who expects France to fight Islamic terror? It hasn't exactly got a distinguished reocrd for standing up in the face of evil, has it?

    (Original post by Carl)
    I'll ask for a third time. Do the Palestinians deserve democracy?
    You'll ask your inane and meaningless question for a third time, fine. What exactly does that mean anyway 'deserve democracy'? Do the palestinians have the right to elect who they want to govern them? Yes. Was that subject to certain restrictions as laid down in the Oslo Accords, which founded the PA? Yes. Were those fundamentally breached by Hamas participating in the election? Yes. Does Israel have a standing obligation to fund terrorism against its own population? No. Does France class Hamas as a terrorist group? Yes. Is France advocating that money be given to a terrorist group? Yes. Is France (and Germany) thus a state-supporter of terrorism... I'll leave that one open.
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    France does not like having words put into it's mouth and thus sees no need to continue this discussion. France acknowledges the difference between the PA and the party that govern it, and that money going to the PA also funds jobs and livelihoods of neutral civil servants and employees, as well as Hamas députés.

    From where France is, she sees signs that Hamas may be willing to negociate and to act like a political party, rather than the terrorist organisation it currently is. Cutting the funding of the PA and refusing to negociate with the democratically elected representatives of Palestine will not bring Israel the peace it supposedly desires.

    With the belligerent and undiplomatic behaviour the supporters of Israel have shown in this debate, France no longer wishes to continue this fruitless and frankly futile endeavor.
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    and that money going to the PA also funds jobs and livelihoods of neutral civil servants and employees
    So as long as the money is used for that sort of stuff as well as the planned annihilation of Israel and killing/maiming of its citizens, that's ok?

    I can see why carrying on the conversation would be inconvenient for you, considering that France is saying that Israel should provide Hamas (a terrorist organisation that France recognises as such) with funds that France knows will be used to terrorise Israel. France is effectively announcing that it has no problem with terrorism against Israel. That position is so incomprehensibly backwards, immoral and ridiculous that the only real option is a retreat, right? (another military tactic that France is famous for).

    And what signs of progress would these be? Things like Hamas leaders declaring that they won't change their policy towards Israel? Declaring that they won't make any change in response to a drop in Western aid? Declaring that they want closer ties with Iran, a country who wants to annihilate Israel?
    Micronesia sees no signs that Hamas is changing its outlook, but if France wants to live in fantasy-land, it's welcome to do so.

    Amusing too, how the delegates who are OPPOSED to giving TERRORISTS money to pursue TERRORISM are called 'belligerent' and 'undiplomatic', whilst those who advocate Israel trying to commit suicide by funding those who want to destroy it are presumably acting 'peacefully' and 'diplomatically'? Right? Craven cowardice and support of Islamic terror is diplomatic these days, is it?

    France and Germany are openly displaying moral bankruptcy, ridiculous demands, craven cowardice and downright idiocy. In the best traditions of the UN.
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    Israel would like to remind countries that no matter how democratically Hamas were elected, it still remains a terrorist group, which can only suggest the people who voted them in (the Palestinians) support terrorism. Israel refuses to send money to terrorists, as it will prove harmful to our existence. Israel would like to see other countries giving money to Bin Laden.
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    Syria condemns the suspension of tax money to the Palestinians. This will only cause more suffering and resentment within a community that is already being oppressed. Israel should have waited to see what stance the new Palestinian government would have taken. It is also hypocritical of Israel to call Hamas a terrorist organisation when Israeli soldiers continue to indiscriminately kill innocent Palestinian civilians. Syria calls on the world to take action to make sure that the Palestinian people to do suffer further at the hands of Israel.
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    (Original post by MMA)
    Syria condemns the suspension of tax money to the Palestinians. This will only cause more suffering and resentment within a community that is already being oppressed. Israel should have waited to see what stance the new Palestinian government would have taken. It is also hypocritical of Israel to call Hamas a terrorist organisation when Israeli soldiers continue to indiscriminately kill innocent Palestinian civilians. Syria calls on the world to take action to make sure that the Palestinian people to do suffer further at the hands of Israel.
    Israel's soldiers are not terrorists and only aim to kill the Palestinian terrorists, not the innocent ones. When innocent ones are killed, it is by mistake (due to terrorists conveniently situating themselves there) or by the odd rebellious soldier. Israel then launches a big investigation and condemns the soldier's action. Israel therefore rejects Syria's comments as Israel is only interested in protection of its people.

    Secondly, it is obvious what their stance is. They continually refuse to recognise Israel and stop violence. If they change their stance, then obviously, Israel will resume funding.
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    Well, if killing innocent Palestinians is a 'mistake', the Republic of Sierra Leone feels that Israel is making an awful lot of 'mistakes'.
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    (Original post by gemgems89)
    Israel's soldiers are not terrorists and only aim to kill the Palestinian terrorists, not the innocent ones. When innocent ones are killed, it is by mistake (due to terrorists conveniently situating themselves there) or by the odd rebellious soldier. Israel then launches a big investigation and condemns the soldier's action. Israel therefore rejects Syria's comments as Israel is only interested in protection of its people.
    Syria rejects this explanation. Israeli soldiers continue to shoot indiscriminately at Palestinian civilians including women and children, destroy Palestininian property and steal Palestinian land. This is no mistake, it is a clear policy designed to expand Israel's power and oppress the Palestinian population. Syria calls on Israel to remove itself from Palestinian land and to treat the Palestinians with respect.
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    (Original post by MMA)
    Syria rejects this explanation. Israeli soldiers continue to shoot indiscriminately at Palestinian civilians including women and children, destroy Palestininian property and steal Palestinian land. This is no mistake, it is a clear policy designed to expand Israel's power and oppress the Palestinian population. Syria calls on Israel to remove itself from Palestinian land and to treat the Palestinians with respect.
    When was the last time you heard of Palestinian children and women being shot? The only time Israel can remember anything about Palestinian children and women is when they try to be suicide bombers.

    Israel does not continue to "steal Palestinian land." When was the last time Israel grew, rather than handed land over? Once again, ignorance on Syria's behalf.
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    Oh, back to open crap-spewing at the UN, are we? I really don't think that Syria is in any position to be taken seriously on Israel. In recent years the Syrian ambassador to the UN has openly repeated ancient anti-semitic blood libels against Jews, simply updated to be about the Jewish State.
    It is also patently obvious to anyone who can look at facts or numbers that Israel does not indiscriminately kill civilians. First, the majority of dead palestinians were NOT civilians, they were armed fighters (in contrast to the vast majority of Israeli casualies being civilians). Secondly, the amount of civilians killed is actually very SMALL considering the threat Israel faces and the difficult conditions in which its soldiers operate. In comparable situations there are far higher casualties inflicted, you need only look at Chechnya to see the kind of response that Israel could have taken... Also, palestinian terrorists deliberately use civilians as cover, deliberately placing their own civilians at risk, hardly actions that protect them as they try to claim. Furthermore, Israel has a highly-advanced military, if it was intent on killing as many civilians as possible, it would manage far more than it has, otherwise we are witnessing the most inefficient and pathetically limited killing campaign in history.
    It seems we are back to the default lie-mode from the barbarians in Syria. Anything to distract from your own assassination of Lebanese politicians, compliance in the destruction of foreign embassies on your territory and support of terror etc.?
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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    Oh, back to open crap-spewing at the UN, are we? I really don't think that Syria is in any position to be taken seriously on Israel. In recent years the Syrian ambassador to the UN has openly repeated ancient anti-semitic blood libels against Jews, simply updated to be about the Jewish State.
    It is also patently obvious to anyone who can look at facts or numbers that Israel does not indiscriminately kill civilians. First, the majority of dead palestinians were NOT civilians, they were armed fighters (in contrast to the vast majority of Israeli casualies being civilians). Secondly, the amount of civilians killed is actually very SMALL considering the threat Israel faces and the difficult conditions in which its soldiers operate. In comparable situations there are far higher casualties inflicted, you need only look at Chechnya to see the kind of response that Israel could have taken... Also, palestinian terrorists deliberately use civilians as cover, deliberately placing their own civilians at risk, hardly actions that protect them as they try to claim. Furthermore, Israel has a highly-advanced military, if it was intent on killing as many civilians as possible, it would manage far more than it has, otherwise we are witnessing the most inefficient and pathetically limited killing campaign in history.
    It seems we are back to the default lie-mode from the barbarians in Syria. Anything to distract from your own assassination of Lebanese politicians, compliance in the destruction of foreign embassies on your territory and support of terror etc.?
    If the Israeli soldiers are anything near as hot-headed as the ambassador for Micronesia then it is no surprise that innocent Palestinians are being killed.
    If Israel is shooting innocent Palestinians by mistake then Syria urges Israel to be more careful on future operations. There seems to be too many mistakes. Syria also urges Israel to stop building settlements on land that does not belong to them and we are sure that the whole of the UN agrees on that one. Only when Israel starts to abide by its own international obligations can it gain some respect in the middle-east. Syria also demands an apology from the ambassador for Micronesia for the false and unproven allegations that have been made.
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    Micronesia will give an apology when Syria stops sponsoring terrorism, assassinating Lebanese politicians and being complicit in foreign embassies on its territory being attacked.
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    (Original post by the Greek Representative)
    Greece agrees that Germany is clearly acting out of character
    To Greece: Really? Would you be so kind as to elaborate on that by telling me what Germany's stance is on this topic?

    (Original post by Micronesian Representative)
    There is quite a vast difference between legitimate democracy and the version that led to the election of Hamas. True democracy does not elect armed groups in to power. And seeing as the German delegate is so fixated with the Oslo Accords, how about we mention the fact that as a terrorist, rejectionist group, Hamas had NO legal right to be running in the election in the first place? Their very participation breached the Oslo Accords in a fundamental way. And now the foolish delegate seeks to base a claim on those same accords? The hypocrisy would be astounding, did it not come from the particular delegate in question.

    Pay their employees?! Micronesia feels that a large number of Hamas members may find themselves on a pay roll of the PA now and does not think that Israel should be paying their wages. And what work has Germany done exactly? It's simply handed over money as part of the EU, ignoring all reports of the use of that money for terror and the utter corruption of the PA. Germany has done little if anything to work towards peace and its absurd demands can only damage the region further.
    To Micronesia: True democracy can elect whoever they want. If the Palestinian people wish to be governed by Hamas, democratically, it is their choice.
    Germany does not ask Micronesia to pay Palestinian wages. It repeatedly asks for Israel to pay the PA govt. their money, with which they will pay their employees.
    As to Germany 'simply' handing money to the EU; Money has value!
    Also Germany has send advisors to help the PA govt. establishment. (http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/e...prozess_html#4 )
    Germany has closely scrutinized the use of its money and has not ignored any reports that it has received on the use of its money. It knows its money is being used towards the construction of a democratic Palestine, and will not have its money wasted by Israel not paying Palestinian money.
    Germany does not support a terrorist organization, yet prefers a possible terrorist attack over an inevitable coup. Hamas has not made any act against Israel yet, and Germany urges Israel to hold negotiation talks with PA govt.
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    (Original post by aiman)
    To Micronesia: True democracy can elect whoever they want. If the Palestinian people wish to be governed by Hamas, democratically, it is their choice.
    Actually true democracy would not have armed groups that were legally banned from running in the election, as true democracy rests on such principles as the rule of law.

    (Original post by aiman)
    Germany does not ask Micronesia to pay Palestinian wages. It repeatedly asks for Israel to pay the PA govt. their money, with which they will pay their employees.
    With which they will pay their employees AND Hamas terrorists, as acknowledged by the French delegate.

    (Original post by aiman)
    It knows its money is being used towards the construction of a democratic Palestine, and will not have its money wasted by Israel not paying Palestinian money.
    Well, if Germany is dedicated to funding an organisation which it itself considers terrorist, then it should find other ways and not insist that Israel do it. Some countries have principles about funding terrorism.

    (Original post by aiman)
    Germany does not support a terrorist organization
    You've made it painfully clear that it does.

    (Original post by aiman)
    Hamas has not made any act against Israel yet, and Germany urges Israel to hold negotiation talks with PA govt.
    This if you discount the hundreds, possibly thousands, of successful and attempted terror attacks against Israel by Hamas in the last few years? You're asking Israel to negotiate with a group whose standing position is that they want Israel annihilated. Wow, those will be fun negotiations. 'We want you to cease to exist!' 'Er... we can't agree to that.' 'Well, it's what we want!'
    Yeah, useful.
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    I'd rather you didn't twist my words to your own ends Jon, that's not what diplomacy is about and you should know that I believe money used to fund the PA will not be used to fund terrorism.
 
 
 
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