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Is it rape if he's my boyfriend

feminazi

you're ridiculous (as i said, feminazi knitting circle crazy)

the guy gets into a bad mood after not being allowed to finger the girl = coercion for rape

seriously

think about what you're trying to say here

are girls who manipulate men to buy them stuff thieves as well then? you're absolutely ridiculous, no wonder 85% of rape cases go unreported because people like you consider this rape and there's no way this would go through in any court

Reply 61

Bellissima

16

i would class that as rape.

Reply 62

Dragon_Keeper

Original post by Teenage Pirate

ok so basically you posted like one relevant fact so I'll address that

how is a tantrum threatening behaviour (in the OP they say he got angry)? no evidence of that in the OP. emotional blackmail is not coercion.

stop whiteknighting

throwing a tantrum would indicate a loss of control and usually by definition rage and out of control behaviour......

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tantrum

tantrum [ˈtæntrəm]
n
(often plural) a childish fit of rage; outburst of bad temper

ergo it would indicate a threatening manner ergo would be deemed to be coercion

emotional black mail would be a form of coercion

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coercion

Coercion

(See also EXTORTION.)

force [someone’s] hand To pressure someone into taking a stand or revealing his beliefs or intentions; to compel someone to act immediately and against his will. In print since the mid-19th century, this expression perhaps derives from card games in which one player forces another to play a particular card and thereby reveal the contents of his hand. Another possible theory is that force [someone’s] hand is like twist [someone’s] arm, suggesting that the present figurative use derives from actual physical force.

knobstick wedding The forced marriage of a pregnant, unwed woman; a shotgun wedding. Churchwardens (lay officers who dealt with the secular affairs of the church and who were the legal representatives of the parish) formerly used their authority to ensure such marriages. The term knobstick ‘a knobbed stick, cane, or club used chiefly as a weapon’ refers to the churchwarden’s staff, the symbol of his office, used as an instrument of coercion, or cudgel.

put the screws to To compel action by exercise of coercion, pressure, extortion, blackmail, etc. The expression derives from an early method of torture involving the use of thumbscrews to extract confessions.

put the squeeze on To pressure another for one’s own purposes; to demand payment or performance by means of harassment or threats.

She hired me to put the squeeze on Linda for a divorce. (Raymond Chandler, High Window, 1942)

shotgun wedding Any union, compromise, agreement, etc., brought about by necessity or threat; originally a wedding necessitated or hastened by the bride-to-be’s pregnancy, a forced marriage; also shotgun marriage. The allusion is to an irate father attempting to protect his daughter’s reputation by using a shotgun to threaten the man responsible for her condition into marrying her. Use of the expression dates from at least 1927.

Werdel … characterized the Brannan plan as a “shotgun wedding between agriculture and labor.” (California Citrograph, January, 1950)

when push comes to shove See EXACERBATION.

definitions are just for clarity please note the use of the words blackmail in coercion and fit of rage in tantrum

just for clarity if you do not understand the word rage

here is its definition

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rage

rage (rj)
n.
1.
a. Violent, explosive anger. See Synonyms at anger.
b. A fit of anger.

as for whiteknight .. I don't see me rescuing any damsel in distress .. however rather be me than someone who sees fir to take oportune moments to sexually assauly peope or rape them ...... maybe getleman would e a better turn of phrase.. although I do like the old knights code of honour and respect :smile:

good day to you Sir

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 63

Schmokie Dragon

17

Original post by Teenage Pirate

you're ridiculous (as i said, feminazi knitting circle crazy)

the guy gets into a bad mood after not being allowed to finger the girl = coercion for rape

seriously

think about what you're trying to say here

are girls who manipulate men to buy them stuff thieves as well then? you're absolutely ridiculous, no wonder 85% of rape cases go unreported because people like you consider this rape and there's no way this would go through in any court

If someone is coerced into handing money or goods over to someone else, that is also wrong. Well done.

Rape is having sex with someone without their consent. Cases of coercion, pressure and manipulation seriously cloud whether the consent was meant and could be considered willing. Before he had sex with her, he violated her consent not to be sexually/intimately touched.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why is his desire to get his dick wet so much more defendable in your eyes than her (clearly expressed) desire to be left alone?

People like you are the reason so many rapes go unreported - because the victim feels as though they will be belittled, laughed at, called a prick-tease (or some other derogatory name), told to 'get over it' or that they deserved it for not spraying mace in their attackers face or for having sex with/hanging out with/flirting with the person before the attack happened.

I know what I'm trying to say. I am very, very clear about what I mean. I'm sorry that my liberal, 'lets not help ourselves to others' bodies without their consent', 'how about we don't pressure people into sex', 'no means no' attitude is so difficult for you to get your head around.

Try countering my points rather than just going for the ad-hominems.

Reply 64

Teenage Pirate

13

Original post by Schmokie Dragon

If someone is coerced into handing money or goods over to someone else, that is also wrong. Well done.

Rape is having sex with someone without their consent. Cases of coercion, pressure and manipulation seriously cloud whether the consent was meant and could be considered willing. Before he had sex with her, he violated her consent not to be sexually/intimately touched.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why is his desire to get his dick wet so much more defendable in your eyes than her (clearly expressed) desire to be left alone?

People like you are the reason so many rapes go unreported - because the victim feels as though they will be belittled, laughed at, called a prick-tease (or some other derogatory name), told to 'get over it' or that they deserved it for not spraying mace in their attackers face or for having sex with/hanging out with/flirting with the person before the attack happened.

I know what I'm trying to say. I am very, very clear about what I mean. I'm sorry that my liberal, 'lets not help ourselves to others' bodies without their consent', 'how about we don't pressure people into sex', 'no means no' attitude is so difficult for you to get your head around.

Try countering my points rather than just going for the ad-hominems.

What points? FOr instance most of this post had absolutely nothing to do with the OP. You talked about victimization of rape victims blahblahblah completely irrelevant crap that so often gets thrown around in these arguments.

My last post was almost entirely about how your definition of coerce is ridiculously loose and encompasses a ton of non-criminal behaviour. In the words of the OP, "purely because he's in sucha bad mood." Your idea of coercion is being upset at not being able to finger your girlfriend...

And no, the guy didn't violate consent at an earlier stage. Sex was consensual and he accepted the "no" at every step of the way.

It's pretty sad that you're unable to understand just how ridiculous your views are. Have you ever had a boyfriend? Seriously, you're completely out of touch with the fact that sometimes there's pressure to do stuff sexually in normal relationships...

edit to clarify though, I'm not saying that this extent of pressure is normal or nice, but it's not rape either. some pressure is normal in relationships (though you don't apparently seem to get this), this guy was just a lot more persistent than is normal. but it's hardly coercion for him to get into a bad mood and it's not coercion because if this was rape (you know, a serious crime instead of this thing you seem to be describing) and seriously harmful to her she could have been sterner or just put her clothes on

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 65

Dragon_Keeper

Original post by Teenage Pirate

It's pretty sad that you're unable to understand just how ridiculous your views are. Have you ever had a boyfriend? Seriously, you're completely out of touch with the fact that sometimes there's pressure to do stuff sexually in normal relationships...

yes she has had a b/f I am one of them :biggrin:

her view is not ridiculos to anyone with a grain of common decency or respect for a partner, F/buddy YOU are the one missing the point there should not be any pressure to do stuff sexually or not if you dont want to do it you dont want to do it .. being as you put it 'persistent' is coercion and is not tolerable in decent society

if you find this form of behavior acceptable maybe you should look in the mirrror and seriously ask yourself are YOU a sex pest ??? maybe you should ask yourself if someone did this to your sister/mother/daughter/girlfriend/friend would you find it acceptable or would you 'want to have a word with them'

just a little late night food for thought

Reply 66

Schmokie Dragon

17

Original post by Teenage Pirate

What points? FOr instance most of this post had absolutely nothing to do with the OP. You talked about victimization of rape victims blahblahblah completely irrelevant crap that so often gets thrown around in these arguments.

I'm throwing victim blaming around irrelevantly? You're the one that keeps saying 'she could have walked away' and 'she could have put her clothes on'. You've effectively said that 'if she really felt like a victim, she would have taken further steps to prevent him', thus suggesting she is partially to blame for how far things went by not physically stopping him.

My last post was almost entirely about how your definition of coerce is ridiculously loose and encompasses a ton of non-criminal behaviour. In the words of the OP, "purely because he's in sucha bad mood." Your idea of coercion is being upset at not being able to finger your girlfriend...

You keep talking about 'normal relationships' having sexual pressure and the like, and seem to completely ignore that in 'normal relationships' people will do things they don't want to because they're upset that their partner is angry, that they feel the relationship is threatened by the situation they are in, that they don't feel emotionally strong enough to push their partner away (verbally or physically) or refuse them something. It is concievable that by getting angry with her, after putting her under considerable pressure, she felt unable to continue to say no despite not wanting to have sex. Getting angry is coercive, especially when aimed at someone because of a 'percieved' failing of theirs. In this case, it was pretty clearly an attempt to coerce her because he got angry, she gave in and then he had sex with her. He got what he wanted as a result of his continued pressure. How is pressuring someone not coercive?

At the end of the day, he should not have put her in a position where she felt her only option was to give in. Whether she had other options or not (as you say, to get out of bed or put her clothes on) is not that important - she may have felt that such actions were going to further anger her boyfriend and cause further problems.

And no, the guy didn't violate consent at an earlier stage. Sex was consensual and he accepted the "no" at every step of the way.

OMFG.

You've ignored my point about giving consent under pressure. It's not worth the paper it's written on (or not, in this case).

He touched her, she said no, he stopped. Fine, I agree. However, he then touched her again, having been told to stop, without explicitly establishing consent which had been previously withdrawn and which he did not have good reason to believe had been reinstated. If someone says 'no, I don't want that', you do NOT give it a few minutes and try again! If someone said 'no, I don't want sex', would it be acceptable to insert your penis into her a few minutes later on the basis that she might be up for it this time? No, because that would be RAPE. This is no different. By fingering her, despite having every reason to believe she didn't want it, he sexually assaulted her. As I have said, I agree that 'no doesn't mean never' but when you have been told no, to try again without establishing consent in the same situation (or even at a later date) is at best risking violating consent and at worst a direct violation of her right to consent.

It's pretty sad that you're unable to understand just how ridiculous your views are. Have you ever had a boyfriend? Seriously, you're completely out of touch with the fact that sometimes there's pressure to do stuff sexually in normal relationships...

Have I ever had a boyfriend? Firstly, that's not at issue here and isn't relevant to the quality of my views. Secondly, yes I have. In fact, I currently have two. I'm pretty well briefed on sexual and relationship politics.

I am not unaware that pressure exists in relationships, including sexual pressure. However, you ignored my point earlier about 'is =/= ought'. Yes, people pressure and manipulate each other in realtionships. That is NOT justification for doing so. The normality of it is not a sign that it is justified.

There is also a difference between 'please, pretty please can we have sex tonight, I'll give you a blow-job if we do' and what this man did.

edit to clarify though, I'm not saying that this extent of pressure is normal or nice, but it's not rape either. some pressure is normal in relationships (though you don't apparently seem to get this), this guy was just a lot more persistent than is normal. but it's hardly coercion for him to get into a bad mood and it's not coercion because if this was rape (you know, a serious crime instead of this thing you seem to be describing) and seriously harmful to her she could have been sterner or just put her clothes on

Rape is serious. Serious crimes are not necessarily uncommon.

How 'stern' she was is not important in terms of determining the merit of his actions. She said no (and had to say so multiple times - that's pretty stern) and then he got angry with her, which made her feel that she had to say yes. That is violating consent (by putting her in a position of having to continually reject the same action of his) and coerced consent. This not hard to understand. Are you really suggesting that 'if this was rape' she would/should have been more forceful, as though saying 'no' isn't enough?

Reply 67

misselisepink

Hi OP,

I've been in a similar position, where I've told the guy that I did not want to do certain sex things and he kept insisting and i gave in. i feel that guys should not continue to pressure us knowing that we have stated that we do not want to do stuff. at the same time, i feel weird about it because i did eventually agree to do it. i mean the most minimal amount of consent was there and so in my situation i wouldn't consider it rape.

Honestly, this situation is what you see it as. if you are not comfortable with any part of your sexual activity, which you are clearly not, you need to recognize that and even if others don't consider it rape, it clearly is unhealthy and is making you feel bad. either talk to him about it or discontinue seeing him. I'm sorry that you end up in pain for a few days b/c of the fingering. take care of yourself and set boundaries and if he can't respect them then he is not worth it.

Reply 68

Teenage Pirate

13

Original post by Schmokie Dragon

blahblahblah

ok, my last post on the topic because you're clearly a feminazi troll

your standards for coercion are incredibly low. you're basically saying that because she felt that the relationship would be hurt by her not consenting, she had to consent. there's nothing in the op to suggest he threatened violence or anything of that nature.

if he had said "I'll break up with you unless I get to finger you" would that be rape to you? because it seems to be pretty similar. and if you actually for some crazy reason to say yes, i feel sorry for "dragon keeper" because apparently men's sexual expectations from relationships are equivalent to coercion for rape.

the only part where I remotely agree with you is where he kept repeating the advances... but to mitigate that there is the fact that it's kind of an extreme version of normal behaviour, not criminal...

Reply 69

RandZul'Zorander

11

I think it could be classified as rape. While I will agree that it may be a somewhat fuzzy area the fact of you two being in a relationship is not grounds or entitlement to sex or any kind of sexual contact. If you said no repeatedly then his advances were at the very least very inappropriate. And you're eventual 'consent' could be seen as coerced because of how it came about.

Reply 70

Schmokie Dragon

17

Original post by Teenage Pirate

ok, my last post on the topic because you're clearly a feminazi troll

your standards for coercion are incredibly low. you're basically saying that because she felt that the relationship would be hurt by her not consenting, she had to consent. there's nothing in the op to suggest he threatened violence or anything of that nature.

if he had said "I'll break up with you unless I get to finger you" would that be rape to you? because it seems to be pretty similar.

From http://thisisabuse.direct.gov.uk/worried-about-abuse/view/rape-sexual-assult/consent

Consent - what it means

Consent

•

Consent is someone giving permission or agreeing to something, after they have thought carefully about whether or not they want to do something.

•

To be able to give your consent you should be sure that it is your decision and not one you have been pressured to make.

•

The law in Britain says that both people need to give their consent before sex or any physical closeness.

•

The law also says that to consent to sex a person must be over 16 and have the ability to make informed decisions for themselves.

Being pressured
If you are being forced or pressured into doing sexual things you don't like or aren't sure about, then this is abuse. There are ways someone might try to make you do things without physically forcing you, these can include:

•

Being made to feel stupid or bad for saying 'no'

•

Being told you would do it if you loved them

•

Being bullied into having sex

•

Being encouraged to drink lots of alcohol or take drugs to make you more likely to have sex

•

Manipulating your emotions, for example saying 'If you loved me you would...'

Making sure you have got consent

•

Sex with any girl/boy under 16 is unlawful, including oral. It doesn't make any difference if permission (consent) is given or not, if you're under 16 sex is illegal.

•

Consent to one sort of sexual activity does not mean you are getting consent to everything. Permission is required for each activity.

•

Consent may be withdrawn at any time. If your partner changes their mind, it's their right to do so.

•

Even if you have had sex with someone before, you still need permission the next time.

•

Giving oral sex to someone without permission is rape.

•

If you do not get consent – it's rape.

More things to look out for to make sure you have consent

•

When it comes to sex or physical closeness you should feel safe with your partner, be able to trust them and feel that they would respect you whatever your decision.

•

Good communication between you both will help to ensure you know how your partner feels about sex or physical closeness. It is a good idea to check things out with your partner by asking if they are enjoying what you are doing and asking if they want to continue.

•

Reading body language is also important. If your partner is relaxed it is likely that they feel comfortable. If they are tense, they may be nervous or frightened and are probably trying to hide how they really feel.

•

Someone doesn't have to say the word 'NO' to withhold their permission, there are lots of ways they might say they don't want to do something or have sex.

•

Sometimes people might find it hard to say anything at all if they don't want to have sex, so you should always look out for other signs that they might not be comfortable and might not be giving their consent.

The legislation has the following to say about consent:

[If] any person was, at the time of the relevant act or immediately before it began, using violence against the complainant or causing the complainant to fear that immediate violence would be used against him [then] the complainant is to be taken not to have consented to the relevant act

Taken from: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/75

I've quote the section most relevant to this case.

Which is interesting, in that it contradicts the previous .gov.uk site which said that consent is not valid if it is gained under pressure to do so. However, they have not defined 'violence' and we do not know what the man said to the OP while he was angry.

and if you actually for some crazy reason to say yes, i feel sorry for "dragon keeper" because apparently men's sexual expectations from relationships are equivalent to coercion for rape.

Men's sexual expectations?

The unfair expectations of some men lead to coercion and rape. Fortunately, a lot of people realise that pressuring someone into sex and touching them without their consent is wrong, both legally and morally.

People have no right to enforce their sexual expectations on others - relationship or no relationship. Most people have the decency to differentiate between what they desire and what they expect or are entitled to.

I wouldn't worry about Dragon_Keeper. He's not a total moron and sexual abuser, so his 'sexual expectations' are unlikely to be a problem.

We work with safewords and he respects my right to consent free from pressure.

the only part where I remotely agree with you is where he kept repeating the advances... but to mitigate that there is the fact that it's kind of an extreme version of normal behaviour, not criminal...

He repeated the advances after consent had been withdrawn and without establishing that she was reinstating consent.

From http://www.fpa.org.uk/professionals/factsheets/lawonsex#p8vW:

Sexual assault by penetration

This new offence was introduced in England and Wales by the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the Sexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 2008, and the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009. It is an offence for someone, male or female, intentionally to penetrate the vagina or anus of another person with a part of their body or anything else, without their consent. The purpose also has to be sexual.

Sexual/Indecent assault

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland it is an offence (sexual assault) for a person intentionally to touch sexually another person without reasonable belief that they consented. Touching covers all physical contact, whether with a part of the body or anything else, or through clothing

In the best light, this man is abusive and committed sexual assault. This is not acceptable, 'normal' or otherwise. In the worst light, he is a rapist because the pressure he put his girlfriend may legally invalidate the 'consent' she gave.

Reply 71

silverbolt

19

Original post by missygeorgia

Yes, it is rape. You asked him to stop and he didn't stop. Giving in to coercion isn't consent.

But even if it wasn't technically rape - which it is - it's still abusive, and you're not safe in this relationship. Please try and talk to someone you trust about it.

This is my thoughts as well. I would call it rape and at the very very very least a sexual assualt.

You said no and he pressed the issue, he said no and he pressed the issue.

He wanted to, you didnt, he did it anyway. Its rape.

It is not consensual if she feels badgered/bullied, if he does it knowing she doesnt want it AND that its going to cause her pain. Its rape.

Original post by Teenage Pirate

Wouldn't a court recognize that she had every opportunity to leave or get dressed if she actually felt coerced?

Thats one of the issues with rape/ssexual assualt - especially in relationships. A crime should always be innocent until proven guilty however that does not mean that the victim should always be disbeleived because they didnt get up and walk away. She may have been too scared, or bullied, or beleived it was ok at the time. But that does not make it right.

Original post by Teenage Pirate

short reply to just this part because I'm low on time

she is naked in bed next to the guy. people pressure other people for sex all the time (the classic sitcom guy trying to get the girl into the mood kinda thing), there's a big difference between "no" (especially if that no has repeatedly led to a yes later on) and "I'm leaving now" or "you're really hurting me". seriously you seem completely oblivious to the context. SHE'S IN BED NAKED NEXT TO THE GUY SHE'S JUST HAD CONSENSUAL SEX WITH. this isn't like a guy coercing her into sex acts in a situation she can't get out of easily, this is a guy nagging her while she continues to lie next to him, naked. pretty that if you wanted to establish the level of coercion here to be equivalent to rape (which is a pretty serious crime you know?), you'd need to show that avoiding the coercion wasn't as simple as getting up or being more stern.

and "assailant", her responsibility blahblahblah take your loaded language back to your feminazi knitting club or slutwalk group or whatever

Ok now i just think your a prick. She could have had consensual sex with him a hundred times in the past. The second she wholly withdraws her consent for the 101st time its rape. The fact that she is naked means NOTHING- just because she does not have any clothes on does mean he has cart blanche to do what he likes with her. No means no does not mean "no means no until im too tired/worried/upset/beaten to say it anymore."

Original post by Schmokie Dragon

Rape is having sex with someone without their consent. Cases of coercion, pressure and manipulation seriously cloud whether the consent was meant and could be considered willing. Before he had sex with her, he violated her consent not to be sexually/intimately touched.

Exactly - the problem with these "grey area" arguments (or the BS the other guys coming out with) are that we are talking about a crime that is one of the most intimately vile things a human can be subjected to. Just becuase he didnt put a knife to her throat or held her down does not mean she was a willing participant.

And men and women confuse this - they think that being "talked into it" is ok, that being coerced is fine, that being badgered into submission is normal. Its bloody not. Its wrong, just becuase its hard to prove doesnt make it right.

Original post by Teenage Pirate

if he had said "I'll break up with you unless I get to finger you" would that be rape to you? because it seems to be pretty similar. and if you actually for some crazy reason to say yes, i feel sorry for "dragon keeper" because apparently men's sexual expectations from relationships are equivalent to coercion for rape.

Sweet zues and the gods above - what BS are you peddling? you seriously think its ok to blackmail someone for sexual interactions. Jesus christ.

Im a man and there is no way i would ever say something like that to my partner and it shames me to know we share the same genetalia. There is no way i would ever try to coerce my partner into having sex. and please dont back with some pathetic comment about how i must hardly get any - my sex life or its frequency are none of your concern but needless to say im perfectly satisfied with it and i dont need to resort to threats.

Reply 72

chrislpp

15

Original post by Sunshine showers

What a loving relationship you've got there.

Meanwhile the nice guys were friend-zoned.

Oh women, given the power to choose the next generation of humans with absolutely no intelligence to carry out the task properly.

:rolleyes:

Reply 73

Schmokie Dragon

17

This thread has me pretty freaked, tbh. The sheer amount of neg-rep going around in response to posts that are advocating consent is worrying. Do people really think that badgering, pestering and pressuring others into sexual activity is acceptable?

Reply 74

RichyFrench

14

Original post by Schmokie Dragon

This thread has me pretty freaked, tbh. The sheer amount of neg-rep going around in response to posts that are advocating consent is worrying. Do people really think that badgering, pestering and pressuring others into sexual activity is acceptable?

Don't worry about it, I can't see you being pressured into sex any time soon.

Reply 75

Schmokie Dragon

17

Original post by RichyFrench

Don't worry about it, I can't see you being pressured into sex any time soon.

I'm not worrying about me.

Reply 76

ParadoxSocks

22

Original post by RichyFrench

Don't worry about it, I can't see you being pressured into sex any time soon.

I think that's the point. Nobody should be pressured into sex ever.

Reply 77

RichyFrench

14

Original post by ParadoxSocks

I think that's the point. Nobody should be pressured into sex ever.

Trying to understand why you've put the emphasis on 'should'. If you're saying that because it does still happen, that's kinda irrelevant to my post.

Reply 78

silverbolt

19

Original post by Schmokie Dragon

This thread has me pretty freaked, tbh. The sheer amount of neg-rep going around in response to posts that are advocating consent is worrying. Do people really think that badgering, pestering and pressuring others into sexual activity is acceptable?

Apprently so and that is worrying in itself.

Dunno what worse - the fact that people do it or the fact that people think its ok or normal or right or allowed to happen. Its not.

Reply 79

ParadoxSocks

22

Original post by RichyFrench

Trying to understand why you've put the emphasis on 'should'. If you're saying that because it does still happen, that's kinda irrelevant to my post.

You were saying that not being pressured into sex was a bad thing. In reality nobody should be in a relationship with somebody who pressures them for sex.

Is it rape if he's my boyfriend

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