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    @ Teebs & Mountain

    Pure art = proper knowledge = proper, correct movements = proper applications.

    When a tkd guy tries to do wushu, or a judo guy tries to do tkd etc., it shows. It takes years to adjust and to get the correct 'way' of doing things. Teaching people abit of this, abit of that, isn't going to improve them as much as properly teaching an entire martial art.

    Of course, its always good to learn additional stuff from other styles but without proper basics and a deep understanding of at least one martial art, it will just confuse the student.
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    I can see the justification for this with similar arts, for example taekwondo and karate, I fail to see why doing judo and karate, for example, would defile the 'purity' of a martial art though. The two are essentially unrelated and act to remove each other's weaknesses very well.

    Personally, I think that the 'purity' of an art is pretty irrelevant if you're trying to learn to fight effectively if you're being taught what works from a mixture of styles. If you were to limit yourself to one style then obviously you wouldn't be as good at it as someone who studied it purely, but I see no reason why it would make you a worse fighter overall.

    Within a martial art there are often numerous styles (e.g wado ryu and shotokan in karate), within those styles there are often numerous organisations and within those organisations there are many teachers. All of these are different to each other and many might bring in aspects from other arts or their own ideas. Do they make an art any less pure?
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    Pure arts are ineffictive in a fight.

    What use is learning an entire martial art such as say Tae Kwon Do if your oppenent is bigger and stronger and bull rushes you and takes it to the ground? Your years of training are useless.

    The same would go for Judo if the opponent is not willing to clinch.

    As a hobby or for fun it probably better to master one martial art to avoid confusion. As a form of self defence wouldent most if not all martial arts in one way or another be ineffective?

    Cross training is the key.
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    Learning lots of different martial arts is good, I'm not denying that. I myself learn 2 (or 3 actually, depends on how you look at it).

    But if you choose to learn a style, learn it properly. Whats wrong are certain MMA places who teach abit of this, abit of that.

    Theres a huge difference between learning say, 6 martial arts deeply, from different teachers and places, compared to 'learning' 6 martial arts from the same teacher from the same gym in a fraction of the time taken, and inevitably, at a fraction of the actual depth of knowledge.
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    (Original post by Toing)
    Learning lots of different martial arts is good, I'm not denying that. I myself learn 2 (or 3 actually, depends on how you look at it).

    But if you choose to learn a style, learn it properly. Whats wrong are certain MMA places who teach abit of this, abit of that.

    Theres a huge difference between learning say, 6 martial arts deeply, from different teachers and places, compared to 'learning' 6 martial arts from the same teacher from the same gym in a fraction of the time taken, and inevitably, at a fraction of the actual depth of knowledge.
    What MMA places teach TMA's anyway? Unless you are talking about the McDojos that teach various martial arts under one roof. Maybe your definition of MMA is different to mine.

    These places dont care about the traditional aspect of what they do. They dont teach kata, they learn to fight MMA, and they are the best at it. What is wrong with what they do?

    Plus what MA do these MMA gyms teach anyway? I thought it was mainly Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ. To which martial art are they detrimental?
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    (Original post by lolcano)
    Pure arts are ineffictive in a fight.

    What use is learning an entire martial art such as say Tae Kwon Do if your oppenent is bigger and stronger and bull rushes you and takes it to the ground? Your years of training are useless.

    The same would go for Judo if the opponent is not willing to clinch.

    As a hobby or for fun it probably better to master one martial art to avoid confusion. As a form of self defence wouldent most if not all martial arts in one way or another be ineffective?

    Cross training is the key.
    The only way a person can really be beaten in battle, is to beat their spirit. Your spirit must beat the spirit of your enemy. A weakened spirit means defeat. If you are looking at your enemy and could only think about how big he/she is, then you have already lost, before anyone has even started.

    Battle is not a contest. It is life or death. (Life, you walk away. Death, you can't walk away. Thats how I personly see life or death in todays society where you can not just kill a man unless he is trying to kill you.)

    Have you read or even heard of "Book of Five Rings"? I suggest reading it.

    The book also states that it is good to not just study fight, but to study in other fields aswell to better your skill. Like a musical instrument.
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    The only way a person can really be beaten in battle, is to beat their spirit.
    Actually, I think your spirit is pretty irrelevent if you get knocked out on the first blow. Unconsciousness tends to make willingness to fight slightly pointless.
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    (Original post by Farrdango)
    The only way a person can really be beaten in battle, is to beat their spirit. Your spirit must beat the spirit of your enemy. A weakened spirit means defeat. If you are looking at your enemy and could only think about how big he/she is, then you have already lost, before anyone has even started.

    Battle is not a contest. It is life or death. (Life, you walk away. Death, you can't walk away. Thats how I personly see life or death in todays society where you can not just kill a man unless he is trying to kill you.)

    Have you read or even heard of "Book of Five Rings"? I suggest reading it.

    The book also states that it is good to not just study fight, but to study in other fields aswell to better your skill. Like a musical instrument.
    Youre crazy.

    I do agree though that a good proportion of a fight is mental. The false confidence people gain from MA's cant help. Id love to know how many MA guys found out the hard way their blackbelt doesent mean a thing.
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    (Original post by lolcano)
    Youre crazy.

    I do agree though that a good proportion of a fight is mental. The false confidence people gain from MA's cant help. Id love to know how many MA guys found out the hard way their blackbelt doesent mean a thing.
    Equally i'd say the confidence you gain from spending 3-4 hours a week sparring gives you a positive boost... I'd say the person most likely to 'win' the fight is the person with the best perception. After all, the better your perception of events, the most likely you will avoid a fight...

    But like most people are saying - cross training is the way forward.
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    (Original post by Teebs)
    Actually, I think your spirit is pretty irrelevent if you get knocked out on the first blow. Unconsciousness tends to make willingness to fight slightly pointless.
    Your spirit is what leads you into a fight! With a strong spirit, you block the first blow instead of getting hit and knocked out, following with a more fierce and quicker punch or kick than your enemy to cut him down. A strong spirit allows you to continue to fight after being hit with a strike, or even after being laid out on the ground. A strong spirit allows you stand where a weaker man fell. A strong spirit allows one man to fight ten, and win. Saying spirit is irrelevent shows the lact of knowledge and experience. I suggest reading "Book of Five Rings." It will change your life.
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    Hey guys!! hope you are all ok. Sorry, been busy lately so havent paid a visit..

    I was meant to go for green (after missing my first grading) on Sunday.. But then I got chicken pox, so I'm likely to miss my green belt AGAIN!!!! shocking isn't it?!?.. My Sensei reckons I'm really ready as well
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    (Original post by Farrdango)
    Your spirit is what leads you into a fight! With a strong spirit, you block the first blow instead of getting hit and knocked out, following with a more fierce and quicker punch or kick than your enemy to cut him down. A strong spirit allows you to continue to fight after being hit with a strike, or even after being laid out on the ground. A strong spirit allows you stand where a weaker man fell. A strong spirit allows one man to fight ten, and win. Saying spirit is irrelevent shows the lact of knowledge and experience. I suggest reading "Book of Five Rings." It will change your life.
    To put it bluntly, I think you're talking rubbish. While I would agree that a lack of spirit will probably cause you to lose a fight, saying that a strong spirit will allow you to fight ten people and win or think that it'll allow you to beat anyone is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how strong your spirit is if someone is far more skilled and stronger than you, it doesn't matter how strong your spirit is if so many people attack you that you are physically incapably of blocking everything they throw at you.

    The idea that there is some mystical force of spirit which will allow you to beat all odds belongs in cartoons. Sure spirit, determination, willpower or whatever you want to call it is going to be important in a fight, but not as important as skill or numbers.

    Finally, on my 'lack' of knowledge and experience, while I have a huge amount more to learn, I think I have plenty to comment on this issue.
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    OK lets do a bit of defining martial arts before we get onto what is best or pure. Sorry if definitians are mainly Japanese or Okinawan I only have a limited experience in Chinese arts.

    Sport martial arts, these are arts that are aimed at competition fighting, generally have rules and thus have a weakness in a real fight due to the combatants being in a mind set which excludes certain techniques. For example Judo, Karate (not all styles but most), Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, etc.

    Spiritual martial arts, these are the arts that have some kind of spiritual or self progressing nature. For example Aikido, Iado, Judo (some styles), Karate (some styles). Usually these styles will end in 'do' which means 'way' or 'spiritual way'.

    Military arts, these are the arts that tend to have either a basis in 'Koryu' arts or some kind of military training including tactics and fieldcraft, as well as firearms training. Please be aware that most armed forces are interested in sport so Karate, Judo and Tae Kwon Do rear their heads, but in this definition I will exclude them. These styles include Krav Maga, Jiu JUtsu, Systema, Sambo and Ninjutsu. In Japanese terms these fighting arts will tend to end in 'jutsu' meaning 'art'.

    Koryu, these are based in a long lineage and will include Jiu Jutsu, Ninjutsu, Kenjutsu and others. Generally these will be able to trace a lineage of several hundred years.

    Finally you have the mixed martial arts, these tend to be based on one style and involve bits of other styles, for example Kick Boxing (Karate, Muy Tai), some styles of Jiu Jitsu (generally made up of a mix of Karate, Judo, Aikido, and Iado).

    So that being out of the way a couple of points. Purity of style is a state of mind and will mean many things to different people.

    Mixed martial arts are coming full circle. What I mean here is that many of the traditional styles of martial arts started with striking, locking, throwing, pressure points, choking, weapons etc etc. In the late 19th early 20th centuary Kano took Kito Ryu Jiu JUtsu and took out the nasty stuff to create the sport of Judo, Funakoshi did something similar with Karate, Ushiba with Aikido (from Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu), and then Taekwon do was created in the 1950's from Shotokan Karate, Hapkido from Aikido, and Yudo from Judo, kick boxing is a cut down style of karate.

    As you can see many martial arts started as what we might now term mixed martial arts and were broken down, now we are coming full circle. The unfortunate side effect of this and I will use Jiu Jutsu as an example is that people with no experience in traditional Jiu JUtsu are taking a bit of Judo, a bit of Karate, some Aikido, and some Iado. Mixing them together and calling this Jiu Jutsu. Unfortunatly it is not which is where we have the problem of someone who does Judo not being able to easily adapt to Karate. They are seperate discaplines.

    The styles of Jiu Jutsu that I train in date back to the 9th Centuary, when I teach Judo and karate instructors all of a sudden things start to come together. Not because they do not know the technique but rather they do not understand the history.

    Hope this helps
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    Just thinking about it would anyone be interested if I ran a monthly seminar, open to all martial artists, on say the 2nd Sunday of the month?

    Goal would be not to push ego's but rather to allow students to try out various martial arts without having to commit? If we have other instructors then they could maybe teach a session.

    Cost would be say £10 and the session would be held at Salfords, Surrey (between Redhill and Gatwick just off the M23 and M25) start at 13.00 and finish at 17.00 (1pm-5pm).

    We could leave the session open to whatever people wanted to learn but essentially I could teach;

    Judo
    Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu
    Jiu JUtsu - Locking, throwing, stiking, pressure points, chokes etc.
    Ninjutsu
    competition tactics

    Weapons
    Staff weapons
    6 foot staff - Rokushaku Bo (Japanese Bo)
    4 foot staff - Jo
    3 foot staff - Hanbo
    18 inch stick - Tanbo
    6 inch stick - Yawara / Eda

    Linked weapons
    Weighted chain - Kasuri Fundo
    Kasuri Gama - Sickle and chain
    Bird rope - Tenuchi
    Rope work - Hojo Jutsu

    General weaponry
    Sunsetsu
    Iron Fan - Tessan
    Iron Truncheon - Jutte
    Site removers - Metsubishi

    Bladed weapons
    Knofe - Tanto
    Short sword - Wakazachi
    Long sword - Kenjutsu / Batto jutsu
    thrown blades - Shuriken / Shaken / Senban

    Okinawan Konudo
    6 foot staff - Bo (Okinawan Bo)
    Nunchaku
    Sai
    Sickle - Kama
    Kubotan
    Tonfa

    I can probably pull in other instructors I know to teach Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kick boxing, stage fighting, tai chi, and Wing Tsun.
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    (Original post by Teebs)
    To put it bluntly, I think you're talking rubbish. While I would agree that a lack of spirit will probably cause you to lose a fight, saying that a strong spirit will allow you to fight ten people and win or think that it'll allow you to beat anyone is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how strong your spirit is if someone is far more skilled and stronger than you, it doesn't matter how strong your spirit is if so many people attack you that you are physically incapably of blocking everything they throw at you.

    The idea that there is some mystical force of spirit which will allow you to beat all odds belongs in cartoons. Sure spirit, determination, willpower or whatever you want to call it is going to be important in a fight, but not as important as skill or numbers.

    Finally, on my 'lack' of knowledge and experience, while I have a huge amount more to learn, I think I have plenty to comment on this issue.
    I never spoke of fighting any and everyone and beating them. Especialy in a cartoonish way that you speak of. Everyone gets hit, there is no stopping that. And everyone has a possibility to lose. I never said a person could beat anyone he disires with a strong spirit. If there is someone that is stronger, bigger, faster than you, it doesn't mean that you will lose. Physical appearance means nothing.

    If there is a man who wants to mug you, than you defend yourself. But if you look at the man and notice his size, and start to question your capabilities, than you will lose. A strong spirit means trust in ones ownself. Strong spirit allows you to look past all odds and see a way out of the maze, instead of doubting your capabilities, hiding from fear, and thinking only of you losing.

    If two three men wish to jump you, than your training will allow you to walk away( fight and win). Spirit allows you to use your trainning with out flaw. Execute technique and not hesitate.

    Your spirit is what allows you stand where others have fallen. If a group of 12 men are trying to kill you. Strong spirit allows you to never give up. Stand back up when you fall( not fall as in defeat). To break bones, paralyze, or even kill your enemies.

    My statement was clear. You may walk into battle against one man or even 10 men and win. Skill alone can not get you there. And it does not mean you will always win. Someone else is could always be better than you, but you don't go into a fight thinking that. You have a strong spirit. It will allow you to use technique wisely without hesitation, to your fullest potential.

    Note:The word allow. It does not mean you will always win every single person at ease. I never said that. Spirit is the initiative to get the job done. There is always some one that can out last you. Whose spirit is stronger.

    (Original post by Farrdango)
    A strong spirit allows you to continue to fight after being hit with a strike, or even after being laid out on the ground. A strong spirit allows you stand where a weaker man fell. A strong spirit allows one man to fight ten, and win.
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    I always had an interest in Ninjutsu. Are there any good websites to go to that shows some of the history and technique?
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    A real nice kick.


    Check out this fight! What styles are these fighters? The one that begins on the left, Red fighter, is Sensei Adam Tibon. He is in Goju Ryu, but I am unsure about the other man. Can I get some help?
    Sensei Adam Tibon
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    (Original post by Farrdango)
    I always had an interest in Ninjutsu. Are there any good websites to go to that shows some of the history and technique?
    Go to the Bujinkan Britain web site. It is run by Peter King one of the top Ninjutsu Instructors in the world. He is one of Dr Hatsumi's Senior instructors in Europe. Hatsumi is one of the only authentic (recognised by the emperor of Japan) Ninjutsu masters in Japan, his teacher was Takamatsu Sensei.

    If you are looking for Ninjutsu clubs do a search for;
    - Bujinkan (Dr Hatsumi's clubs)
    - Genbukan (Shoto Tanemura, again one of Takamatsu sensei's students)
    - Jinbukan (can not remember who runs these but again they are authentic)
    - BBD (These are run by Brian McCarthy, very good and very hard)
    - Mountain Warriors (Mostly run by ex BBD, Genbukan and Bujinkan instructors)

    I think that is about it, you will also notice that most of these do not advertise as Ninjutsu (Except BBD). This is because they all teach a mixture of 9 schools of Jiu Jutsu and Ninjutsu. They tend to clasify themselves as Jiu Jutsu or Tai Jutsu.

    Be wary of clubs that are secretive and call themselves Ninjutsu clubs openly most are not or never done any Ninjutsu (or not a lot). We have one near us called 'Little Ninja's' which is wholely based on Tae Kwon Do.

    If you need any advice let me know.

    Richard
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    (Original post by mountain)
    The unfortunate side effect of this and I will use Jiu Jutsu as an example is that people with no experience in traditional Jiu JUtsu are taking a bit of Judo, a bit of Karate, some Aikido, and some Iado. Mixing them together and calling this Jiu Jutsu. Unfortunatly it is not which is where we have the problem of someone who does Judo not being able to easily adapt to Karate. They are seperate discaplines.

    The styles of Jiu Jutsu that I train in date back to the 9th Centuary, when I teach Judo and karate instructors all of a sudden things start to come together. Not because they do not know the technique but rather they do not understand the history.

    Hope this helps
    Yes it helps alot.

    This is the problem with modern day MMAs. When they pull abit of this style, abit of that style, and call it kungfu or ju jitsu or whatever, when its nothing of the sort. Or they brand it as a 'real world' martial art or some crap like that.

    While crosstraining is important, the student needs to properly 'get' each martial art. The basics of each martial art are different.
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    (Original post by Toing)
    Yes it helps alot.

    This is the problem with modern day MMAs. When they pull abit of this style, abit of that style, and call it kungfu or ju jitsu or whatever, when its nothing of the sort. Or they brand it as a 'real world' martial art or some crap like that.

    While crosstraining is important, the student needs to properly 'get' each martial art. The basics of each martial art are different.
    The thing is though pure MA themselves are ineffective. If someone goes to these places what is the problem? They arent there to learn kata and get a blackbelt, they are there for self defence.

    As long as they dont gain belts in the component martial arts, and they are just learning it for self defence wheres the need to get any martial art?

    Personally i think learning any of the traditional martial arts as a form of MMA or self defence are useless, and many would agree with me.
 
 
 
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