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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1281
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#1281
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
y well balanced in the first place - so is a black belt judo in judo even needed?
In self-defence you aren't going to be the aggressor in general. The chances of someone charging at you or grabbing you is VERY LIKELY in self-defence. If you're in a situation where there's distance between yourself and the attacker you shouldn't attack them, just GTFO. Maybe you're thinking about street fights or something else. Also, as proven, height and weight doesn't mean anything against untrained opponents, skill is a much great factor. They can be called players or fighters, hear both regularly. What they're called is irrelevant. Good for drunks, also good for sober people. You pull them off balance, they don't just fall over while you hold them.
Of course i was, what other type of fight is there - a mat fight in a dojo lol ?
The odd drunk may charge straight at you or try to grab you - you really dont need any sort of high level training to cope with that.

(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvI5X0-nY1E

Sure about that? I know you think MMA is for losers but that's clear proof that being the aggressor in clinch mode isn't that difficult. Once you have a hold of them you can go to work. Those guys in there have very strong striking and grappling ability and yet still get taken by judo guys.
No, its only proof that some teenager came home from school one day and cut together some clips of judo guys rolling around on canvas against guys with gloves on, with a referee making sure both stuck to rigid rules – all set to cheesy music.
It also shows judo can be useful in a sport where going for clinches, take downs, top position and 'attempts' at submissions all score points, in the eyes of judges.


(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
You talk about 'pain receptors' and 'prone areas' like they're some sort of magical button you can just hit to take out the other guy. They're useful in theory, no real proof that they work irl. You tried to link us to a video of wing tsun or something a while back and it was a fake video, just shows that wing tsun, kung fu etc. are all just theory based, no real substance.
No I talk about them in very general terms, seeing as they are based on medical science and most of the techniques (the chinese ones anyway) follow proven principles of blood and oxygen supply, communication of the nervous system and pivot points of various joints.
If you get something jabbed in your eye, is that 'theory' or fact that it hurts quite a lot lol? Where did you pick up this thinking, in judo school?

And I didnt post any clip of fake wingtsun, you must be mixing me up with someone else youre arguing with. I offered a link to a kungfu class in which very basic cq techniques were being taught for ground fighting – in order to disprove Clips assertion that groundfighting in kung fu didnt exist.



(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
And no, I've never been in a 'real life scenario' because I avoid fights. You can go 'ha, so you don't know then' all you like, I'm not going to be the douchebag that gets into fights. That said, plenty of anecdotes of people who have used it in self-defence, such as einheri's robber's arm being damaged.
“ einheri's robber's arm being damaged” !? Im sure that was quite a story. Do you have any other sources a little more reliable than einheri, given that his exposure to martial arts is little more than a childs and has already been choked out by, what was it a 9 y/o girl?

(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
No no, you don't understand. Wrestling, boxing etc. weren't created for the small man to neutralise size differences. Not all martial arts are the oriental kind.
I know – wrestling and boxing (as we know them) were created for sport – just like judo

(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
Is this a serious comment? In COMPETITION against other TRAINED fighters it's dangerous because they can offer perform counters and land on you or simply overpower you and damage a smaller frame with far great strength. Against UNTRAINED fighters the probability of this happening is far far smaller. Unless you think that a martial art has to have a 100% success rate for it to be legitimate.
No, I think that martial art should be as effective and successful as possible for real time scenarios (ie not in a cage/dojo)
If a style trains you throw a fat guy (trained or not) with the potential consequence of him landing on your arm/leg and breaking it, it is a joke one.


(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
Well you seem to have been doing it for the past few weeks.
Disproving your ignorant comments – not the same thing im afraid.


(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
I DO muay thai. You do wing tsun, kung fu etc. and you're telling me that I don't know what a thai clinch is *facepalm*. What next, I don't know what a punch is? I don't know what judo is? (oh wait, already got past that, I thought it was a stand up martial art but clearly it's ground based!)
A I dont do wingtsun, not now anyway, I simply refered to it to again clarify einheris and your original ignorance of its use in self defence. But that was to be expected of judo kiddies I guess.
B I dont believe for a second you DO muay thai, given you have no clue of the principles of the basic or even were aware of muay techniques that proper fighters would be aware of – such as head strikes. More likely you are well versed practising moves in your bedroom aped off youtube.

(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
Because they hadn't come up yet...? You claim someone can attack with their head. I assume (rightfully) that a simple head-butt wouldn't be able to take out a thai fighter and you then claim that it's not a head-butt (and then go on later to refer to it as a head-butt) and that the person we're now fighting does have martial arts experience, in which case, THEY ARE A TRAINED OPPONENT. Why shouldn't they win a fight if they're trained? It'd be like an amateur kickboxer fighting a pro-boxer and then blaming it on the style when he/she lost.
Youre waffling now, clearly you used the word “headbutt” first not me – I was referring too the basic techniques involved in 9 point (of which forehead strike is one), such as hitting your opponents jaw/face with the top of the head in clinch – a proper fighter would have been aware of this technique instead of pretending it couldnt happen, and then backtracking.

(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
This isn't an argument. You do realise that you're the one losing an argument when you start throwing around pathetic insults for no reason. You're not actually saying anything, just putting your hands on your ears and screaming "I'm not listening!" at everything we're telling you. Yeah, proof? You go on about how I have no knowledge but you can't provide any whatsoever.
Not an insult to make an observation, the proof being your incorrect statements and complete lack of knowledge about all topics except judo (which I dont know enough about to clarify if you bull****ing about too)


(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
'Sacrifice' throws exist due to higher standard of competition and so more difficult, complex and dangerous throws need to be used. In a real life fight against an untrained opponent such throws wouldn't be necessary... simple throws and trips that won't put the judo fighter on the ground as well are very possible.
Sacrifice throws exist because the fact that judo is a sport allows them to.
In real life , you dont need judo to trip someone random drunk. If anyone ever actually felt the need to do so :rolleyes:
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1282
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#1282
(Original post by Einheri)
When was I debating that only Judo has chokes and jointlocks? Nice strawman there.



Seems pointless in posting it in the first place then - unless you were intent on putting up strawmen yourself


(Original post by Einheri)
Everyone fighting in the Olympics will be in the top 0.0001% of Judo practitioners in the world. Super high-level guy vs super high-level guy means they end up negating eachothers Judo a lot of the time and even throws that score ippon are more often than not partially reversed or countered by the other guy - but believe that if any of those throws landed on, for example, concrete the guy on the bottom would not be having such a fun time. Again, you demonstrate that you have no clue about Judo.


Most of what you said above can applied to a sumo wrestling match too.
i know that its a sport, thats all i need to know that it doesnt have a place in a discussion about proper martial arts- as you have clarified.


(Original post by Einheri)

Haha, you clearly have no idea who Kron Gracie is. And Karim Byron is a former Absolute Division champion. Either way, either of those guys would quite literally be able to rape you. And the same thing stands as what I said earlier - super high-level guys negate eachother and at the highest levels you often see stalemates.


presumably one of the many dozen gracie children of grand children? again whats your point?
who is karim byron a relative of - im sure if i let him sit on me and he ran out of breath and assed out like he did here , i might be in some difficulty -And im not sure why you think judoplayers have an interest to "literally rape" people? - doesnt bother me what you get up to in the dojo, just keep in mind thats where it belongs. how fat was the girl that choked you out, out of interest?



(Original post by Einheri)
Orly? :rolleyes:

"Judo is the study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself." - Kano Jigoro


"Yeh, that sounds like just the sort of soundbyte the westerner will gobble up to sell my new watered down ju system. Theres always a few gullible ones to hoover that sort of stuff up." Kano Jigoro
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Einheri
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#1283
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#1283
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Seems pointless in posting it in the first place then - unless you were intent on putting up strawmen yourself
Not at all. You said it was "just a sport" and I gave examples of why it isn't "just a sport" - that it has martial application unlike my examples of volleyball and tennis which are just sports.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Most of what you said above can applied to a sumo wrestling match too.
i know that its a sport, thats all i need to know that it doesnt have a place in a discussion about proper martial arts- as you have clarified.
And I'm sure that if you picked a fight with a sumo wrestler you'd be really sorry about it afterwards. Something having a sportive aspect doesn't necessarily diminish its effectiveness as a martial art.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
presumably one of the many dozen gracie children of grand children? again whats your point?
who is karim byron a relative of - im sure if i let him sit on me and he ran out of breath and assed out like he did here , i might be in some difficulty -And im not sure why you think judoplayers have an interest to "literally rape" people? - doesnt bother me what you get up to in the dojo, just keep in mind thats where it belongs.

how fat was the girl that choked you out, out of interest?
He is a very prominent, skilled and widely admired Jiu-jitsu practioner, and yes he is a Gracie.

"Literally rape" - I'm saying you'd be helpless and they could do whatever the hell they wanted with you because they're amazing grapplers.

Funny you say that when your "martial art" of choice involves hours of ill-disguised patty cake with other men.

Not fat at all. I'm not ashamed to say that I got caught and didn't tap quick enough, I wouldn't have even mentioned it if it hurt my pride at all. He shoots . . . he misses.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
"Yeh, that sounds like just the sort of soundbyte the westerner will gobble up to sell my new watered down ju system. Theres always a few gullible ones to hoover that sort of stuff up." Kano Jigoro
Despite it being the most widely practiced martial art in his native Japan? You make some spurious claim and I refute it with a quote from the founder himself and this is your response? Weak, very weak.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1284
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#1284
(Original post by Einheri)
Not at all. You said it was "just a sport" and I gave examples of why it isn't "just a sport" - that it has martial application unlike my examples of volleyball and tennis which are just sports. .


boxing is a sport, that has application in real life scenario. Judo has less so. i have nothing against sports.
Many of the techniques you described are designed for use in a dojo on mats- that point has been made on numerous occassion to your avoidance. Many are were developed specifcally in the the dojo environment and sporting competiton and therefore useless in real life -for example various collar chokes using opponents gi or using the sleeve of your gi - which only work because the judo gi material is built totally heavily for the purpose of wrestling - normal clothes will just tear with your trying these maneouvers - whereas amrtial arts students are taught this early and therefore domt waste time learning uselss techniques such as those.
Finally judoplayers only ever have to think about feet postioning, balance, grip of handels etc and have a referee to look after everything else. Outside of a dojo, the referee isnt pulling up your opponenet for breaking of strict judo rules. A proper martial artisit with training in cqc would quite frankly put you out of commission long before you even had the idea of throwing him over your hip, and probably leave you with some serious permanent damage to take back to your dojo. And you would have never even heard of him on youtube.


(Original post by Einheri)
And I'm sure that if you picked a fight with a sumo wrestler you'd be really sorry about it afterwards. Something having a sportive aspect doesn't necessarily diminish its effectiveness as a martial art. .



The last thing i would do is pick a fight with a sumo wrestler- if one was annoyed at me, i would spend a few minutes avoiding him till he lost his breath and needed to sit down- a bit like your high-level judo clip there.



(Original post by Einheri)
He is a very prominent, skilled and widely admired Jiu-jitsu practioner, and yes he is a Gracie.

"Literally rape" - I'm saying you'd be helpless and they could do whatever the hell they wanted with you because they're amazing grapplers.
.


Yeh, of course.


(Original post by Einheri)
Funny you say that when your "martial art" of choice involves hours of ill-disguised patty cake with other men. .


Again,yeh of course. :rolleyes:



(Original post by Einheri)
Not fat at all. I'm not ashamed to say that I got caught and didn't tap quick enough, I wouldn't have even mentioned it if it hurt my pride at all. He shoots . . . he misses..



Well if 18 stone fatboys can be judo champions, theres no reason why 9 year old girls cant choke out clueless judo players i supposse. No reason it should have hurt your pride, kind of fits in with all the other sub standard martial arts knowledge you display anyway.



(Original post by Einheri)
Despite it being the most widely practiced martial art in his native Japan? You make some spurious claim and I refute it with a quote from the founder himself and this is your response? Weak, very weak.
Hardly - stating facts like sumo DID influence kano in his development of judo, he did, along with japanese businessmen, try selling it to americans and the west and the fact that people describe judo as the "watered down version of ju-jistsu" that the japanese didnt want to export to the west in its full form.

Facts are hardly spurious, you need a dictionery.

PS football has become the most popular sport in my country, what does that have to do with anything?
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Dr. Bassman
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#1285
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#1285
I just wrote a big post replying to indo-chinese food and then my internet screwed up and I lost it. Ain't writing that out again, I'll let Einheri prove you wrong.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
I just wrote a big post replying to indo-chinese food and then my internet screwed up and I lost it. Ain't writing that out again, I'll let Einheri prove you wrong.
Clearly your use of the internet is adept as your martial arts knowledge.
Hopefully you can still access youtube, otherwise you would have no frame of reference
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Dr. Bassman
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#1287
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#1287
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Clearly your use of the internet is adept as your martial arts knowledge.
Hopefully you can still access youtube, otherwise you would have no frame of reference
It's funny, I didn't even reply to your post and you're still looking for ways to be douche. You go on about being a real martial artist and yet you have absolutely zero respect for people at all. That's one of the few things I actually admire about a lot of traditional martial arts... they tend to be ineffective but they at least improve a person's character. Obviously not in your case...
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1288
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#1288
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
It's funny, I didn't even reply to your post and you're still looking for ways to be douche. You go on about being a real martial artist and yet you have absolutely zero respect for people at all. That's one of the few things I actually admire about a lot of traditional martial arts... they tend to be ineffective but they at least improve a person's character. Obviously not in your case...
i have respect for lot of people, you cant train different martial arts and not have respect for different points of view. I jsut dont like one-eyed views that are frankly wrong and uninformative to people coming on tsr for advice.
Your backward view that traditional martial arts 'dont work' for self defence becuase they dont feature in simplistic ufc or sports environments - is wrong. sorry if it upsets you to hear that.
I couldnt possibly say one martial art is 'better for self defence' than the other - they all have specific effectiveness in real time scenarios, and their real effectiveness will depend on the practitioner - otherwise they would have ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. but because of tv and competiton events, sports combat grabs the attention of the ignorant student better.
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Dr. Bassman
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#1289
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(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i have respect for lot of people, you cant train different martial arts and not have respect for different points of view. I jsut dont like one-eyed views that are frankly wrong and uninformative to people coming on tsr for advice.
Your backward view that traditional martial arts 'dont work' for self defence becuase they dont feature in simplistic ufc or sports environments - is wrong. sorry if it upsets you to hear that.
I couldnt possibly say one martial art is 'better for self defence' than the other - they all have specific effectiveness in real time scenarios, and their real effectiveness will depend on the practitioner - otherwise they would have ceased to exist hundreds of years ago. but because of tv and competiton events, sports combat grabs the attention of the ignorant student better.
One-eyed views? You consistently talk crap about judo and other 'sports' martial arts and now you're trying to pretend that you respect other martial arts. Please, you're rude, ignorant and not worth anyone's time.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1290
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
One-eyed views? You consistently talk crap about judo and other 'sports' martial arts and now you're trying to pretend that you respect other martial arts. Please, you're rude, ignorant and not worth anyone's time.
i have much respect for watching judoplayers as a sporting spectacle, just like i watch football, boxing, athletics.
I dont subcribe to the dimwitted view that "duuh judo is da best cos its best for throwing ppl around like on da youtube and better dan da old martial arts i watch in da movies :dunce:
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Dr. Bassman
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#1291
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#1291
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i have much respect for watching judoplayers as a sporting spectacle, just like i watch football, boxing, athletics.
I dont subcribe to the dimwitted view that "duuh judo is da best cos its best for throwing ppl around like on da youtube and better dan da old martial arts i watch in da movies :dunce:
You clearly don't considering you constantly go on about how people are 'rolling around in their pajamas'.

I don't even believe that you should 'respect' every other martial art. You don't understand that you can disagree with a person and not personally attack them as you insist on doing. I wouldn't care if you didn't respect the martial arts that we practise, as long as you didn't put on the false guise that you did and didn't resort to ad hominem attacks when you're in no position to do so.

Also, yeah, I watch videos on youtube, watching fighting is one of the best ways to learn. I watch, take note in my head and try it out in training, often with positive effects. Oh and I train everyday
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1292
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#1292
(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
You clearly don't considering you constantly go on about how people are 'rolling around in their pajamas'.

I don't even believe that you should 'respect' every other martial art. You don't understand that you can disagree with a person and not personally attack them as you insist on doing. I wouldn't care if you didn't respect the martial arts that we practise, as long as you didn't put on the false guise that you did and didn't resort to ad hominem attacks when you're in no position to do so.

Also, yeah, I watch videos on youtube, watching fighting is one of the best ways to learn. I watch, take note in my head and try it out in training, often with positive effects. Oh and I train everyday
For you it works = you probably can learn judo online from youtube.
You cannot do the same for martial arts, its far more complex, intricate and time consuming and various techniques are guarded deliberately from the dimwit bedroom-warriors
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Dr. Bassman
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#1293
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#1293
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
For you it works = you probably can learn judo online from youtube.
You cannot do the same for martial arts, its far more complex, intricate and time consuming and various techniques are guarded deliberately from the dimwit bedroom-warriors
I still have a judo coach, and he's a 9th dan...

There's nothing wrong with watching techniques online, you can learn things and then put them into practice at the dojo. Many many pros do it.

Also, lol more ad hominem.
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SEHughes
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#1294
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Indo, I've trained in both combat sports and traditional martial arts - neither has the monopoly on complexity. You do yourself no favours by bemoaning the false dichotomy between the two while perpetuating it in all your posts.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1295
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(Original post by SEHughes)
Indo, I've trained in both combat sports and traditional martial arts - neither has the monopoly on complexity. You do yourself no favours by bemoaning the false dichotomy between the two while perpetuating it in all your posts.
We are talking about judo- which is the epitomy of combat sports - ie take a rounded and effective self-defence style (ju jitsu) and dumb it down for exclusive use in a dojo, teaching in schools to kids and eventually sports competiton. Thats the history of judo ina nutshell. mma has effectively followed the same formula, but mainly due to the money involved in sports tv boradcasting. The very fact that within judo (and sports mma) is outlawed various techniques that in a proper confrontation would be quick, effective and useful proves that "dichotomy"
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I-Am-A-Tripod
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#1296
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#1296
(Original post by Einheri)
I know; I've stopped replying to his posts unless I'm really bored. Kung Fool Logic - like Woman Logic only even more illogical, haha.

I remember that. Funny because I've never been to a Judo club that does more than 10% ne-waza. :rolleyes:


(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
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(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
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(Original post by SEHughes)
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I can settle all your *****ing in one short post -

There is grappling style in Chinese Kung Fu, its called Shuai jiao and it pre dates judo, sambo, greek wrestling etc by hundreds of years. Itself it came from one of the more ancient Indian wrestling styles whoose name escapes me now, i think from south india, where throws and also joint locks and submissions were allowed - as well as taking some influence from tibetan and mongolian wrestling.

I know this because my previous sifu competed in national championships in china few years back - in competiton it is extremly similar to judo but without the full gis, so not so much sleeves and collar takedowns, but does allow some limited distraction striking , open palm only i think.



Observe some class grappling - ignore the 60 seconds upfront of bjj guys used as comparison, the two chinese kung fu guys later take it to the level, - note 2.06m at reversal of the single leg attempt.









And for the record, im full-on kung fu trained and would wipe the floor with you all if was in the mood :lockstock:

Edit - lol Truth hurts eh?
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Einheri
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#1297
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(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
We are talking about judo- which is the epitomy of combat sports - ie take a rounded and effective self-defence style (ju jitsu) and dumb it down for exclusive use in a dojo, teaching in schools to kids and eventually sports competiton. Thats the history of judo ina nutshell. mma has effectively followed the same formula, but mainly due to the money involved in sports tv boradcasting. The very fact that within judo (and sports mma) is outlawed various techniques that in a proper confrontation would be quick, effective and useful proves that "dichotomy"
You can't train these techniques without hurting your training partners or resorting to worthless kata forms. Take Kani-Basami as an example of this - it's very easy to break uke's knee with it because it applies inward pressure to the side of the knee joint if you jump on too hard. It was banned because people were breaking their training partners' knees with it all over the place - you cannot train it safely. And of course live repetition during hard sparring is what gets you good at a technique; forms don't do much good - they're just an outdated medium for preserving techniques. Judo takes techniques that can be safely trained on a mat and repeats them live and in hard sparring over and over and over again so that you're brilliant at it if you did that with my example of Kani-Basami you'd probably have destroyed someone's leg for every 100 repetitions of it. Getting thrown on to a hard surface with most Judo throws will seriously hurt you - something like Osoto Gari will almost certainly crack your skull open on concrete.

To quote your hero Bruce Lee: "I fear not the man who has practiced a 10000 kicks once, but the man who has practiced a kick 10000 times".
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SEHughes
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#1298
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#1298
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
We are talking about judo- which is the epitomy of combat sports - ie take a rounded and effective self-defence style (ju jitsu) and dumb it down for exclusive use in a dojo, teaching in schools to kids and eventually sports competiton. Thats the history of judo ina nutshell. mma has effectively followed the same formula, but mainly due to the money involved in sports tv boradcasting. The very fact that within judo (and sports mma) is outlawed various techniques that in a proper confrontation would be quick, effective and useful proves that "dichotomy"

I love Judo, but it's not the epitome of combat sports, as you would realise if you'd ever trained in BJJ or wrestling which are equally technical.

And yes, all these banned techniques might be effective in an assault (there are no guarantees) - but if you don't have a competence in fighting gained from lots of training with resistance at all ranges, then it's of no use to you. I can't imagine the Anderson Silvas or Mirko Filipovics of this world are, relatively speaking, going to struggle punching someone on the nose or chucking in a knee kick or headbutt. Randy Couture would not struggle to use an eye gouge if the moment presented itself. But take some 10 stone guy who doesn't have the athleticism or the basic skill set to survive even club sparring in these contexts, and then expect him to be able to use some banned technique as a fightstopper in an assault... wishful thinking! Again, there are no guarantees and he might get lucky, but my money's on the guy who's learned to throw a massive right cross.

To reiterate what I said in my first response to you: the dichotomy is not between the combat athletes and the traditionalists, but between the guys who train with resistance and those who don't. I can walk into any boxing, judo, wrestling etc club and find this resistance. The same can't be said of every karate, jujitsu, gongfu etc class.
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SEHughes
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#1299
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#1299
Gong Sau please! Anyone in London?
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Indo-Chinese Food
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(Original post by Einheri)
You can't train these techniques without hurting your training partners or resorting to worthless kata forms. Take Kani-Basami as an example of this - it's very easy to break uke's knee with it because it applies inward pressure to the side of the knee joint if you jump on too hard. It was banned because people were breaking their training partners' knees with it all over the place - you cannot train it safely. And of course live repetition during hard sparring is what gets you good at a technique; forms don't do much good - they're just an outdated medium for preserving techniques. Judo takes techniques that can be safely trained on a mat and repeats them live and in hard sparring over and over and over again so that you're brilliant at it if you did that with my example of Kani-Basami you'd probably have destroyed someone's leg for every 100 repetitions of it. Getting thrown on to a hard surface with most Judo throws will seriously hurt you - something like Osoto Gari will almost certainly crack your skull open on concrete.

To quote your hero Bruce Lee: "I fear not the man who has practiced a 10000 kicks once, but the man who has practiced a kick 10000 times".

I dont know who Kani-Basami is or why she is trying to break uke's knee :confused: But the excuse of not learning a technique because it is damaging is the brainless thinking of sportsmen. Martial artists arnt such if they dont learn the most effective technique for the situation, only the ones that are safest to train. I can see the logic in teaching school kids a dumbed down version, but not grown up martial artists.


I dont know why you keep referring to “deadly techniques” because im not. Proper cqc invloves simple and direct techniques that are effective – that is the most important thing. They dont have to be practiced to full “leathality” as you refer – if you master the application, the timing, accuracy, you can deliver it hwere needed. In many cases, its little more than a firm grip. The most important thing is speed of thought, which can be trained to become second nature without necessarrily debiltating training partners. In all cases they are much faster and easier to deliver than rolling around for armbars etc. Dont thai boxers and indeed other sparrers pull their punches when trianing ? If they have control they wont necessarrily seriously injure anyone. Even so, if your scared about getting hurt – dont train martial arts, boohoo, go do something else. Gets some mats out, a referee and setup a Judo school maybe.
I couldnt count the injuries small and large ive sustained over the years in training, but then I wouldnt exchange it for all the knowledge I have gained.


There are also a variety of techniques form kung fu, for example that can be trained and employed safely as better alternative to wrestling around for throws and clinches- , Chin na is one range dealing directly with people grabbing you and trying to strike or throw – see the video clip attached to this schools website


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD8bD...layer_embedded


Understand that im not against grappling and judo throws - just the basis of creating a style that focusses 100% on it only and is based on sports rules is for kids and fun and not prinicpally for self defence.

When rolling jj with decent gracie students, there was still the odd one that spent too much time in dojo/mma environment who tried pulling guard on me and falling to his back each time – competly pointless in real life without rubber mats and canvas to support him. And then I could see his complete lack of basic p point knwledge, he was screaming in agony whenever he pulled guard an I could jab my elbow down into his sciatic. The other guys who have come from a more combat based bjj environment were much more savvy, but still pointed out to me stuff I was doing is illegal in bjj realms, in fact even some simple stuff like certain compression locks are frowned upon in some bjj circles, which makes me laugh really. In terms of self defence theres nothing I would hold back on on an attacker. So not getting familiar with this stuff/not practicing it to become instinct is brainless and basically simplistic . But thats modern mma for you.

From what I know of ”Osoto Gari” its simply a forward press and trip your opponents standing leg – it also usually leads to them falling on their side, not their head. Even if not, its laughable that the judo dimwits on this thread expect to be able to walk up to a martial artists, grab them, they proceeded to push them off balance, without receiving a debilitating strike that takes barely a fraction of a second, compared to the drawnout wrestling around judo players getup to. Thats ignoring the fact that most martial artists train for years in recognising and maintaning balance, footwork and speed.


The more you talk about this more holes appear in your basic knowledge of combat.


And like I said before there are as many techniques in judo that could end up cracking your own head on the pavement as your opponenets, so whats the point ?




You refer to bruce lee more than I do – even he said the Dos of this world (ju-do, ken-do) are just the over simplided unrealistic aborations of the figting systems (the jitsus). And the gracie bjj academies echo that.
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