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SEHughes
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#1401
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#1401
Fight's OWWWNNNNN!
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Clip
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#1402
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#1402
Einheri is right.

BJJ is rooted entirely in Judo, not Traditional Jiu-jitsu.

Except for the modern guards and some technical embellishments, all the original Gracie stuff came direct from Judo, even if they weren't legal for shiai.

Except for the Kodokan being fussy about exporting it to Brazil, it would probably be called Brazilian Judo (and have the unfortunate abbreviation of "BJ") except for Count Koma being prevented from using the word "Judo" when he went over.
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#1403
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#1403
(Original post by SEHughes)
Fight's OWWWNNNNN!
Seriously. I think this might be the only way to solve this.
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SEHughes
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#1404
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#1404
Would anyone else in London like to come? We could turn it into a proper throwdown.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1405
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#1405
(Original post by Einheri)
Then it wasn't Vale Tudo - Vale Tudo is Brazilian Portugese and means "anything goes". Vale Tudo refers to no holds barred fights in Brazil, especially during the early 20th century. Don't use incorrect terminology and then expect people to know what you're trying (and failing) to refer to. I'm well aware that challenge matches and NHB matches existed in Japan; I was talking last time about Kano Jigoro's challenge matches with Jujutsu schools.

BJJ came from Judo, BJJ is basically Judo with an emphasis on ne-waza rather than on tachi-waza - Maeda Mitsuyo, the guy who is the recognized first generation of what can be called Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was a Judoka and a 7th Dan directly under Kano Jigoro, and Hélio Gracie was a 6th Dan under Kimura Masahiko sooooo . . . yeah, BJJ has plenty to do with Judo.

Yes, but evidently you don't.
This is all fine if we were actually talking about the origin of BJJ, which we are not, i was talking quite clearly about vale tudo, which is independant of bjj, and allowed for various styles to compete.

Besides which you fail to pointout is what Maeda taught Carlos AND Helio gracie was not judo - else it would be called Brazilian judo- at the time it was known as "'Kano jiu-jutsu'"- he taught them effectively combat jujitsu (whcih judo was specialised from) to include standing strikes and knees, plus elements of boxing, european and indian catch wrestling he had learnt in vale tudo style bouts throughout his life. It also included eye gouging, groin strikes, head stamps, even biting was not unheard of. That is the typical bjj/catch wrestling that you may find in a vale tudo bout.
Its isnt the wrestling you do in your pre-fab cage on a wednesday night.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1406
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#1406
(Original post by SEHughes)
Fight's OWWWNNNNN!
i need a reply to my PM
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1407
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#1407
(Original post by Clip)
Einheri is right.

BJJ is rooted entirely in Judo, not Traditional Jiu-jitsu.

Except for the modern guards and some technical embellishments, all the original Gracie stuff came direct from Judo, even if they weren't legal for shiai.

Except for the Kodokan being fussy about exporting it to Brazil, it would probably be called Brazilian Judo (and have the unfortunate abbreviation of "BJ") except for Count Koma being prevented from using the word "Judo" when he went over.
the Kodokan orignally didnt train ground grappling or locks in its techniques, Kano only added them to his orignal simplistic judo formula when the traditional ju jitsu schools defeated his class in their sports competitions ysing submissions from guard. Its those techniques that formed the basis of orignal bjj (plus as i said the various other styles that influenced vale tudo fighters) Hence why it is known as a jitsu, not judo.

get your facts straight or dont bother contributing.
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laughing_cow
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#1408
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#1408
Hi guys, this thread is awesome. Lots of cool stories and that! I'm 16. I'm a 2nd Dan in Freestyle Karate and a 1st Dan in Jujitsu, and i've been training since i was 9!
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Einheri
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#1409
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#1409
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
This is all fine if we were actually talking about the origin of BJJ, which we are not, i was talking quite clearly about vale tudo, which is independant of bjj, and allowed for various styles to compete.

Besides which you fail to pointout is what Maeda taught Carlos AND Helio gracie was not judo - else it would be called Brazilian judo- at the time it was known as "'Kano jiu-jutsu'"- he taught them effectively combat jujitsu (whcih judo was specialised from) to include standing strikes and knees, plus elements of boxing, european and indian catch wrestling he had learnt in vale tudo style bouts throughout his life. It also included eye gouging, groin strikes, head stamps, even biting was not unheard of. That is the typical bjj/catch wrestling that you may find in a vale tudo bout.

Its isnt the wrestling you do in your pre-fab cage on a wednesday night.
You said that BJJ has nothing to do with Judo. I pointed out that it does. Stop backpedaling.

I just didn't mention it; I'm well aware that Carlos Gracie taught Hélio (or as the legend goes Hélio learned from watching him teach classes). Umm, yeah, Kimura gave Gracie a 6th Dan ranking in Judo after their fight, which was how Judo rank was given back then; someone of higher Dan rank than you says you're a certain rank and that's what you were - it's even registered at the Kodokan. Judo was known as many things and spelled variously at the time Maeda was in Brazil: Judo, Jiu-do, Jujitsu, Jujutsu, Jiu-jitsu, Kano Jiu-jitsu, Kano Jujutsu, et cetera. So why did you say BJJ has nothing to do with Judo (you change your argument so many times it's ridiculous)? Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the various styles Maeda picked up in his prize-fighting career and travels - you'll notice I already posted about that many pages ago. And of course gouges and bites were allow in a no holds barred fight - that's why it's a "no holds barred fight"; it's still a part of BJJ and GJJs syllabus (it's just rarely practiced because there is no way to do so safely without resorting to kata forms, besides who needs training to gouge someone's eyes when you have them in full mount?).

Try Monday night, Tuesday morning and night, Wednesday night, Thursday morning and night, Friday night, Saturday morning, afternoon and night. Personal attacks and insinuations do not make an argument.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1410
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#1410
(Original post by Einheri)
You said that BJJ has nothing to do with Judo. I pointed out that it does. Stop backpedaling.

I just didn't mention it; I'm well aware that Carlos Gracie taught Hélio (or as the legend goes Hélio learned from watching him teach classes). Umm, yeah, Kimura gave Gracie a 6th Dan ranking in Judo after their fight, which was how Judo rank was given back then; someone of higher Dan rank than you says you're a certain rank and that's what you were - it's even registered at the Kodokan. Judo was known as many things and spelled variously at the time Maeda was in Brazil: Judo, Jiu-do, Jujitsu, Jujutsu, Jiu-jitsu, Kano Jiu-jitsu, Kano Jujutsu, et cetera. So why did you say BJJ has nothing to do with Judo (you change your argument so many times it's ridiculous)? Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the various styles Maeda picked up in his prize-fighting career and travels - you'll notice I already posted about that many pages ago. And of course gouges and bites were allow in a no holds barred fight - that's why it's a "no holds barred fight"; it's still a part of BJJ and GJJs syllabus (it's just rarely practiced because there is no way to do so safely without resorting to kata forms, besides who needs training to gouge someone's eyes when you have them in full mount?).

Try Monday night, Tuesday morning and night, Wednesday night, Thursday morning and night, Friday night, Saturday morning, afternoon and night. Personal attacks and insinuations do not make an argument.

I didnt say BJJ had nothing to do with Judo,
i said "vale tudo had **** all to do with judo" learn to read, that might have saved you typing a lot of irrelevant rubbish.

I also know that orginal BJJ and Judo arnt the same, bjj has just as much in common with japanese ju jitsu, hence its deveolpemnt of ground grppling and submissions, which werent orignally in Kanos first competition judo style.
And you wouldnt use those from full mount, they were used in order to assist passing guard. They arnt taught in mma standard clases, i think again ive explained this to you before, which you at that time tried to deny.
There youve learnt something today.
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Einheri
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#1411
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#1411
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
I didnt say BJJ had nothing to do with Judo,
i said "vale tudo had **** all to do with judo" learn to read, that might have saved you typing a lot of irrelevant rubbish.

I also know that orginal BJJ and Judo arnt the same, bjj has just as much in common with japanese ju jitsu, hence its deveolpemnt of ground grppling and submissions, which werent orignally in Kanos first competition judo style.

And you wouldnt use those from full mount, they were used in order to assist passing guard. They arnt taught in mma standard clases, i think again ive explained this to you before, which you at that time tried to deny.
There youve learnt something today.
BJJ = variant of Judo, hence Judo has a lot to do with Vale Tudo. Not to mention the fact that Judo was and still is used independently of BJJ in Vale Tudo. And Maeda Mitsuyo was the guy who popularized Vale Tudo by calling people out and fighting them in NHB fights. :rolleyes:

Kano Jigoro added in the ne-waza of Fussen Ryu jujutsu before Maeda came to Brazil.

Why wouldn't I gouge someone's eyes from mount? You have perfect control of them, you can reach their eyes in a high mount or s-mount and they can't reach yours. How the Hell would an eye gouge assist in passing a guard? Wut? I'm guessing your talking about being in closed guard. Try to gouge inside a guard and you'd be giving them the armbar or triangle choke.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1412
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#1412
(Original post by Einheri)
BJJ = variant of Judo, hence Judo has a lot to do with Vale Tudo. Not to mention the fact that Judo was and still is used independently of BJJ in Vale Tudo. And Maeda Mitsuyo was the guy who popularized Vale Tudo by calling people out and fighting them in NHB fights. :rolleyes:

Kano Jigoro added in the ne-waza of Fussen Ryu jujutsu before Maeda came to Brazil.

Why wouldn't I gouge someone's eyes from mount? You have perfect control of them, you can reach their eyes in a high mount or s-mount and they can't reach yours. How the Hell would an eye gouge assist in passing a guard? Wut? I'm guessing your talking about being in closed guard. Try to gouge inside a guard and you'd be giving them the armbar or triangle choke.
i dont think you understand english too well, Judo has **** all to do with vale tudo, even if judo players took part. Capoeira practitioners also took part, doesnt mean all vale tudo fighters have interest in capoeira, they will owe their techniques largely to boxing, ju jitsu and catch wrestling.

And yes ,i just told you that kano added submission grappling to judo in my earlier posts- showing he knew his system of throwing peopple over his shoulder was a in-effective style. Hence why BJJ fighters dont bother with most of the trash you learn in judo school either - they focus on submission grappling first and foremost, but traditional bjj, in vale tudo from also included striking and dirty boxing, taking it even further awy from judo.

You arnt at a level of jj to even begin discussing this, you already made me laugh trying to claim you couldnt do or reach anything in guard without being triangled lol, Till i posted a clip of someone doing exactly that. That was one of those posts where you suddenly became silent for a few days. If you want to talk jj, go find one of the other dimwits you usually converse with that are on your level.
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Einheri
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#1413
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#1413
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i dont think you understand english too well, Judo has **** all to do with vale tudo, even if judo players took part. Capoeira practitioners also took part, doesnt mean all vale tudo fighters have interest in capoeira, they will owe their techniques largely to boxing, ju jitsu and catch wrestling.

And yes ,i just told you that kano added submission grappling to judo in my earlier posts- showing he knew his system of throwing peopple over his shoulder was a in-effective style. Hence why BJJ fighters dont bother with most of the trash you learn in judo school either - they focus on submission grappling first and foremost, but traditional bjj, in vale tudo from also included striking and dirty boxing, taking it even further awy from judo.

You arnt at a level of jj to even begin discussing this, you already made me laugh trying to claim you couldnt do or reach anything in guard without being triangled lol, Till i posted a clip of someone doing exactly that. That was one of those posts where you suddenly became silent for a few days. If you want to talk jj, go find one of the other dimwits you usally converse with that are on your level.
Retarded argument. If Judoka took part in vale Tudo then Vale Tudo has something to do with Judo as much as it has to do with BJJ, catch wrestling and boxing.

Throwing people is not "ineffective". Throw someone to the concrete and they're done. I threw a big guy last week in my wrestling class with Harai Goshi and he had to sit out the rest of the class - it's very effective. The problem is when people don't have good groundwork because they've focused too much on throws. The Fussen Ryu guys were dragging people to the ground (pulling guard) and submitting them before they could throw them. You need to be well rounded hence why I train BJJ, Judo, wrestling and complement it with a bit of boxing.

The post of the Chinese guy "fighting" compliant and non-resistant opponents wearing BJJ gis and purple belts? That was ridiculous; that wasn't hard, alive sparring that was no different to the crap 99% of TMAs do. I didn't respond to that because a) it was retarded and any idiot could see it was compliant, and b) I'd had enough of you and your stupidity already, like I have now. Go to a BJJ open mat session, try to grab an upper belts balls from the guard and watch him take your arm home as a trophy and/or choke you until you're even stupider.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1414
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#1414
(Original post by Einheri)
Retarded argument. If Judoka took part in vale Tudo then Vale Tudo has something to do with Judo as much as it has to do with BJJ, catch wrestling and boxing.

Throwing people is not "ineffective". Throw someone to the concrete and they're done. I threw a big guy last week in my wrestling class with Harai Goshi and he had to sit out the rest of the class - it's very effective. The problem is when people don't have good groundwork because they've focused too much on throws. The Fussen Ryu guys were dragging people to the ground (pulling guard) and submitting them before they could throw them. You need to be well rounded hence why I train BJJ, Judo, wrestling and complement it with a bit of boxing.

The post of the Chinese guy "fighting" compliant and non-resistant opponents wearing BJJ gis and purple belts? That was ridiculous; that wasn't hard, alive sparring that was no different to the crap 99% of TMAs do. I didn't respond to that because a) it was retarded and any idiot could see it was compliant, and b) I'd had enough of you and your stupidity already, like I have now. Go to a BJJ open mat session, try to grab an upper belts balls from the guard and watch him take your arm home as a trophy and/or choke you until you're even stupider.
Its the fat guys fault for letting you throw him in the first place. Im talking about vale tudo, not two retards in judo class taking it in turns to throw each other till they dislocatea shoulder.


No, i posted a seperate clip showing 'dirty tactics' as you called it , being applied in jj, given that you 'claimed its impossible to do it' and your proof was, a clip of two guys in a complaint bjj demo. good circular thinking there. I raised that as a point becuase ive seen it done in a proper jj class, with top level guys who ive been priviledged to roll with , for a short time. talking gracie jj with basic judo/mma wrestling morons who clearly dont have a clue about working ground submissions is tbf disprespectful and why i dont really want to waste time with you on this topic like i said before. If you want to drivel on about judo mats and wrestling moves etc fine, i can tolerate, but your ignorance in other areas is offensive to me.
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Einheri
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#1415
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#1415
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Its the fat guys fault for letting you throw him in the first place. Im talking about vale tudo, not two retards in judo class taking it in turns to throw each other till they dislocatea shoulder.


No, i posted a seperate clip showing 'dirty tactics' as you called it , being applied in jj, given that you 'claimed its impossible to do it' and your proof was, a clip of two guys in a complaint bjj demo. good circular thinking there. I raised that as a point becuase ive seen it done in a proper jj class, with top level guys who ive been priviledged to roll with , for a short time. talking gracie jj with basic judo/mma wrestling morons who clearly dont have a clue about working ground submissions is tbf disprespectful and why i dont really want to waste time with you on this topic like i said before. If you want to drivel on about judo mats and wrestling moves etc fine, i can tolerate, but your ignorance in other areas is offensive to me.
Oh man, you really are dumb; your level of stupid is just too much. And two pages later you still haven't backed up your initial position that Freestyle/Catch/Greco-Roman/etc wrestling are not martial arts. I'm done, try to argue with someone else.
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SEHughes
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#1416
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#1416
How much to fly from Reykjavik to London?
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Einheri
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#1417
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#1417
(Original post by SEHughes)
How much to fly from Reykjavik to London?
About 150-200GBP.
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SEHughes
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#1418
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#1418
I slept on Indo's offer of a fight in the "sparring room" of a Wing Chun instructor in North London. Now I'm just left with the feeling that such a setup is raaaather dodgy.

Indo, at first you made me laugh. Now I worry I'll turn up and get stabbed, so if we meet up it's going to be during the day and in a public place. If you don't think you have the skill to spar in such an environment without causing me serious injury, then it's better we don't meet at all.
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Indo-Chinese Food
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#1419
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#1419
(Original post by Einheri)
About 150-200GBP.
(Original post by SEHughes)
I slept on Indo's offer of a fight in the "sparring room" of a Wing Chun instructor in North London. Now I'm just left with the feeling that such a setup is raaaather dodgy.


Indo, at first you made me laugh. Now I worry I'll turn up and get stabbed, so if we meet up it's going to be during the day and in a public place. If you don't think you have the skill to spar in such an environment without causing me serious injury, then it's better we don't meet at all.
No, i never really believed youd have the plums even for a civilised sparring session, despite all the bedroom tough guy talk lol. Ill still be there on tuesday, on the tiny off chance you grow a pair

Dont worry about getting stabbed - according the einheri you can use wrestling and judo moves and be invunerable
I think I would pay the morons airline ticket from the arse -end of northern europe just to see that, him walking up to one of the scrotes that stand outside the tesco metro and saying "duuuuh me gonna grab u an wrestle u and judo throw u on da floor duuuh", then waking up in a&e with mutiple puncture wounds to his kidney
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Einheri
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#1420
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#1420
(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
No, i never really believed youd have the plums even for a civilised sparring session, despite all the bedroom tough guy talk lol. Ill still be there on tuesday, on the tiny off chance you grow a pair

Dont worry about getting stabbed - according the einheri you can use wrestling and judo moves and be invunerable
I think I would pay the morons airline ticket from the arse -end of northern europe just to see that, him walking up to one of the scrotes that stand outside the tesco metro and saying "duuuuh me gonna grab u an wrestle u and judo throw u on da floor duuuh", then waking up in a&e with mutiple puncture wounds to his kidney
What did you quote me for? I never said I was gonna fly out from frickin' Iceland to watch you get metaphorically buttraped. Stop trying to rustle my jimmies.

SEHughes, are you really going to puss out now? He's a bloody Chunner; what's he going to do slap you to death? Drown you in his own blood? :rolleyes:
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