The Martial Arts Society
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Original post by Einheri
Nah, there are a lot of legitimately good kickboxing schools. They're just more limited in the strikes they use than Muay Thai. However, I do agree with you that Muay Thai > Kickiboxing.
Aikido only works on semi-compliant opponents. So it is useful for low-level law enforcement, mental health professionals, et cetera - basically on people who are resisting but aren't really resisting.
That's a good thing; practising kata forms is an obsolete method of training. Hell, kata weren't even originally meant as a learning tool; they were meant to preserve techniques in an age before widespread literacy, video, internet, et cetera.
I've sparred with many Aikidoka. They all robotically (awkward movement; it's obviously they practise rigid forms more than spar) grab for your wrist, off-balance themselves in the attempt and get foot-swept.
Haha, you like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu now? I thought all we did was hug eachother in pajamas?
Aikido only works on semi-compliant opponents. So it is useful for low-level law enforcement, mental health professionals, et cetera - basically on people who are resisting but aren't really resisting.
That's a good thing; practising kata forms is an obsolete method of training. Hell, kata weren't even originally meant as a learning tool; they were meant to preserve techniques in an age before widespread literacy, video, internet, et cetera.
I've sparred with many Aikidoka. They all robotically (awkward movement; it's obviously they practise rigid forms more than spar) grab for your wrist, off-balance themselves in the attempt and get foot-swept.
Haha, you like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu now? I thought all we did was hug eachother in pajamas?
You are mixing your pyjama sports, your men hugging clips were all judo i beleve, which is what i was referring to.
i have no problem with jj, i trianed gracie no gi and gi while was i was in the US. It isnt the be all and end all of martial arts though. But certainly much more useful than judo chops and and hugging men till the get tired.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
I think, going back to how this originally started, my point is that no wing chun or aikido guy is going to seriously give a kickboxer any real competition. Ok, sweet, glad we got this settled, you can go slap some coathangers now.
It depends on the rules though. I don't think either of them are necessarily better than each other because they can both be extremely practical. If you look at MMA even pure boxing is becoming more popular. Nick Diaz, JDS etc. have all been plowing through guys using pretty much just their hands. Obviously in a MT fight a MT fighter will do better than most kickboxers but in an MMA fight it's more complicated than that, plenty of MT guys get destroyed by boxers (think Nate Diaz vs Cerrone etc.)
It depends on the rules though. I don't think either of them are necessarily better than each other because they can both be extremely practical. If you look at MMA even pure boxing is becoming more popular. Nick Diaz, JDS etc. have all been plowing through guys using pretty much just their hands. Obviously in a MT fight a MT fighter will do better than most kickboxers but in an MMA fight it's more complicated than that, plenty of MT guys get destroyed by boxers (think Nate Diaz vs Cerrone etc.)
Seriously lad, you need to be careful what you type if you are going to try and regain some level of credibility -again you are using MMA as some sort fo yardstick for martial arts - how many high level Muay Thai guys have fought in MMA do you think? If Cung le is the pinnacle of technical strikers of (im not going to use the term 'kickboxing') in lets call it Indochinese fighting styles - then this conversation is over.
LIke i pointed out to you Buakaw entered K1 as a youngster in rules unfamiliar to him and destroyed all the kickboxers
Which MT guys get destroyed in the UFC ? (just looked up Cerrone - he describes himslef as a MT fighter who has never fought outside the USA
And i said horses for courses - in cq, a top end wing tsun would put you to sleep in a few seconds im sure, despite your arabic kickboxing or whatever it was
MT guy is a differnt kettle of fish.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
Seriously lad, you need to be careful what you type if you are going to try and regain some level of credibility -again you are using MMA as some sort fo yardstick for martial arts - how many high level Muay Thai guys have fought in MMA do you think? If Cung le is the pinnacle of technical strikers of (im not going to use the term 'kickboxing') in lets call it Indochinese fighting styles - then this conversation is over.
LIke i pointed out to you Pramuk entered K1 as a youngster in rules unfamiliar to him and destroyed all the kickboxers
Which MT guys get destroyed in the UFC ? (just looked up Cerrone - he describes himslef as a MT fighter who has never fought outside the USA
And i said horses for courses - in cq, a top end wing tsun would put you to sleep in a few seconds im sure, despite your arabic kickboxing or whatever it was
MT guy is a differnt kettle of fish.
LIke i pointed out to you Pramuk entered K1 as a youngster in rules unfamiliar to him and destroyed all the kickboxers
Which MT guys get destroyed in the UFC ? (just looked up Cerrone - he describes himslef as a MT fighter who has never fought outside the USA
And i said horses for courses - in cq, a top end wing tsun would put you to sleep in a few seconds im sure, despite your arabic kickboxing or whatever it was
MT guy is a differnt kettle of fish.
I never said Cung Le is the greatest striker ever. You keep putting words into my mouth. That said, he went undefeated as a kickboxer, he's very good.
Donald Cerrone is just an example of a MT fighter getting torn apart by a boxer. Nate Diaz has NO pro-boxing experience and yet annihilated him with ease. Cerrone had pretty much been plowing through the lightweight division and then got beaten by a boxer. It's a perfect example of how MT guys don't always beat other styles just because they have more tools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUH-UfNPoRk
Here's another example.
Also, lol at wing tsun doing anything. There's literally zero evidence that wing tsun does anything. Hitting coathangers isn't a substitute for actual people fighting back.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
I never said Cung Le is the greatest striker ever. You keep putting words into my mouth. That said, he went undefeated as a kickboxer, he's very good.
Donald Cerrone is just an example of a MT fighter getting torn apart by a boxer. Nate Diaz has NO pro-boxing experience and yet annihilated him with ease. Cerrone had pretty much been plowing through the lightweight division and then got beaten by a boxer. It's a perfect example of how MT guys don't always beat other styles just because they have more tools.
.
Donald Cerrone is just an example of a MT fighter getting torn apart by a boxer. Nate Diaz has NO pro-boxing experience and yet annihilated him with ease. Cerrone had pretty much been plowing through the lightweight division and then got beaten by a boxer. It's a perfect example of how MT guys don't always beat other styles just because they have more tools.
.
I have never even heard of Donald Cerrone - has he ever fought outside the US? He cant be called a MT fighter, if that is the case i am a mixed martial artist lol
I asked you who is the best indochinese style striker in mma? you are the one that has brought up cung le. Who else is there , fillipovic? never won anything of note. Thats why the standard of striking is so substandard in mma and laregly grapplers dominate it. Even the best ever kick boxer rob kaman, was beaten by top MT guys ( even though he himslef trained MT as well)
The fight you posted was horrilbe and basically proves what is was saying about low standard of mma - just looked like two guys fighting outside a pub, both with zero guard, throwing chin up sloppy haymakers and painfully slow kicks till one of them gassed out and got knocked out - that is a typical cage fight for you. suggest again you look at some championship MT fights, if one of those guys landed the same kick on nick diaz unprotected front leg, he is either breaking it or busting apart his knee - fight over inside 2 minutes
Its not just extra techniques that makes MT far superior, training menthods, technique, speed, power, clinch game are all superior.
But that is the 'beauty' of MMA - a non boxer fighting a non MT fighter in acage with a referree and judges for drunken toothless idiots to watch between budweiser adverts. I guess you can call yourself whatver you like in cage fighting and no one will bat an eye lid. In terms of quality, the only high standard of represented discplines that compete are wrestlers and a lessor extent bjj , becuase the mma rules benefit their style the most.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Also, lol at wing tsun doing anything. There's literally zero evidence that wing tsun does anything. Hitting coathangers isn't a substitute for actual people fighting back.
Also, lol at wing tsun doing anything. There's literally zero evidence that wing tsun does anything. Hitting coathangers isn't a substitute for actual people fighting back.
well i did offer you and the other to visit my old wing tsun school when last there, all i got back was silence and excuses, so we all know how cheap talk is
Internet kiddies dont sound the same when offered a chance to test their pre-conceived ideas in real life , so why not change the record
PS what is this obsession with coat hangers?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
I have never even heard of Donald Cerrone - has he ever fought outside the US? He cant be called a MT fighter, if that is the case i am a mixed martial artist lol
I asked you who is the best indochinese style striker in mma? you are the one that has brought up cung le. Who else is there , fillpic? never won anything of note. Thats why the standard of striking is so substandard in mma and laregly grapplers dominate it. Even the best ever kick boxer rob kamen, was beaten by top MT guys ( even though he himslef trained MT as well)
I asked you who is the best indochinese style striker in mma? you are the one that has brought up cung le. Who else is there , fillpic? never won anything of note. Thats why the standard of striking is so substandard in mma and laregly grapplers dominate it. Even the best ever kick boxer rob kamen, was beaten by top MT guys ( even though he himslef trained MT as well)
No you didn't. I posted Cung Le as an example of a kickboxer to show that not all kickboxing was 'cardio kickboxing'. Stop putting words into my mouth, again.
I know the standard of striking in MMA is largely poor. That's a shame, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the closest thing to a fight that can actually be regulated and shows that the greatest strikers in the world probably wouldn't last very long in 'real' fights. That's the beauty of it. How good you are at MT is irrelevant once you're on the ground and if you think just being good at MT is good enough then you're wrong. It's a shame that the striking is largely pretty awful in MMA (except higher up in the divisions, e.g. A. Silva, Aldo etc. That's why I like to watch striking competitions too.
Its not just extra techniques that makes MT far superior, training menthods, technique, speed, power, clinch game are all superior.
Cool but there's not really any proof for that when it comes to real fighting. Maybe the best MT fighter can beat the best 'kickboxer' but that doesn't really prove much because these are just individuals. Kickboxing and boxing have proven to be highly practical in real fighting, there are MMA champions who don't even use their feet and take out MT guys.
But that is the 'beauty' of MMA - a non boxer fighting a non MT fighter in acage with a referree and judges for drunken toothless idiots to watch between buweiser adverts. I guess you can call yourself whatver you like in cage fighting and no one will bat an eye lid. In terms of quality, the only high standard of represented discplines that compete are wrestlers and a lessor extent bjj , becuase the mma rules benefit their style the most.
Most of the UFC champions right now are largely stand up fighters nowadays. Sure, they wouldn't stand a chance against the top MT guys in a MT fight but if you put a MT guy in the cage they're going to be choked in about two seconds and suddenly MT is useless.
well i did offer you and the other to visit my old wing tsun school when last there, all i got back was silence and excuses, so we all know how cheap talk is
Internet kiddies dont sound the same when offered a chance to test their pre-conceived ideas in real life , so why not change the record
PS what is this obsession with coat hangers?
Internet kiddies dont sound the same when offered a chance to test their pre-conceived ideas in real life , so why not change the record
PS what is this obsession with coat hangers?
I already explained why I'm not going to your weird schools. I shouldn't actually have to in the first place. If WT actually offered anything useful there would be at least a shred of evidence available on the internet. Anything, aside from choreographed fighting of course
EDIT:
Your weird wooden toys that you slap resemble coat hangers.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Dr. Bassman
No you didn't. I posted Cung Le as an example of a kickboxer to show that not all kickboxing was 'cardio kickboxing'. Stop putting words into my mouth, again. .
Again, i was taking originally with einheri about highly technical striking, and then you brought up cung le. Its a bit lke talking about quality cars then bringing up a nissan micra. Then you progress to arabic kickboxing and i dont know whether you are being serious anymore.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
I know the standard of striking in MMA is largely poor. That's a shame, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the closest thing to a fight that can actually be regulated and shows that the greatest strikers in the world probably wouldn't last very long in 'real' fights. That's the beauty of it. How good you are at MT is irrelevant once you're on the ground and if you think just being good at MT is good enough then you're wrong. It's a shame that the striking is largely pretty awful in MMA (except higher up in the divisions, e.g. A. Silva, Aldo etc. That's why I like to watch striking competitions too. .
I know the standard of striking in MMA is largely poor. That's a shame, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the closest thing to a fight that can actually be regulated and shows that the greatest strikers in the world probably wouldn't last very long in 'real' fights. That's the beauty of it. How good you are at MT is irrelevant once you're on the ground and if you think just being good at MT is good enough then you're wrong. It's a shame that the striking is largely pretty awful in MMA (except higher up in the divisions, e.g. A. Silva, Aldo etc. That's why I like to watch striking competitions too. .
again thats simplistic naivety based on too much youtube mma, which makes you detached form the real world and practical self defence. Proper mua thai train clinch balance, its very difficult to throw or take a decent guy down, i ve seen these guys defend sweeps standing on one leg. Plus when you are in a thai clinch you will know about it, and in muay boran, they train clinch throws and hip tosses too. The reason none trains a high stansard of striking is becuase mma rules are in place to negate striking techniques.
there is no beauty to mma, i was being sarcsastic - and it is nothing like a real fight, as has been discussed to death on this thread alone. in real scenarios mma fighters anrt protected by rules favouring grapplers such as protection from eating knees, elbows or kick to the head when diving in for a takedown. All a wrestler has to do in the ufc is drop to a knee or all fours and all of a sudden the striker has all his options prohibitted. which is why its described as sport not combat.
Again try charging for a take down to a decent muay thai fighter, he will kick your head off its shoulders i promise you, or if you managed to survive that, he will put your nose into the back of your skull with a few knees - bit like andersen silva did to rich franklyn in their ufc fight, even though silva is hardly a world class muay thai fighter.
decent muay boran guys can kick huge chucks out of tree trunks, they are more than capable of breaking your arm or leg even trying to block a kick.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Cool but there's not really any proof for that when it comes to real fighting. Maybe the best MT fighter can beat the best 'kickboxer' but that doesn't really prove much because these are just individuals. Kickboxing and boxing have proven to be highly practical in real fighting, there are MMA champions who don't even use their feet and take out MT guys. .
Cool but there's not really any proof for that when it comes to real fighting. Maybe the best MT fighter can beat the best 'kickboxer' but that doesn't really prove much because these are just individuals. Kickboxing and boxing have proven to be highly practical in real fighting, there are MMA champions who don't even use their feet and take out MT guys. .
again i asked you to name these MT guys that have been ' taken out' and you named a nobody. The clip you posted was aparently an MMA title fight, in whcih both guys were striking and defending like a pair of drunks. so is suposse in that realm and not real life, general kick boxing does suffice, but then so may boxercise classes.
MMA guys are jack of all trades , or like to think they are, but have mastered none - i dont subscribe to this nonsesne that "80% of fights end up grappling on the floor"
maybe 80% fights of two drunks that cant stay standing up, which forms the majrority of fights. But 100% of fights start on the feet - so if your stand up is not up to scratch, fight will be over before it begins. Its not that easy to take someone down that knows what they are doing (and keep them down) and even more diffucult to avoid serious injury in trying.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Most of the UFC champions right now are largely stand up fighters nowadays. Sure, they wouldn't stand a chance against the top MT guys in a MT fight but if you put a MT guy in the cage they're going to be choked in about two seconds and suddenly MT is useless. .
Most of the UFC champions right now are largely stand up fighters nowadays. Sure, they wouldn't stand a chance against the top MT guys in a MT fight but if you put a MT guy in the cage they're going to be choked in about two seconds and suddenly MT is useless. .
Again you are living in cuckoo land. any quality MT guy will wipe the floor striking with a typical MMA guy - but will he be able to take him down? in the UFC possibly where rules allow protection to do so, not in reality. And then youd have to contend with the strength of the thai clinch, a few rib breaking knees and jaw breaking elbows and the balance used to stay on their feet. i havent seen any mma fight where a decent knee has been thrown, in a muay thai fight no one would just plough in and try and judo throw an opponent, becuase they would get their rib smashed into their lung within a few seconds.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
I already explained why I'm not going to your weird schools. I shouldn't actually have to in the first place. If WT actually offered anything useful there would be at least a shred of evidence available on the internet. Anything, aside from choreographed fighting of course
EDIT:
Your weird wooden toys that you slap resemble coat hangers.
I already explained why I'm not going to your weird schools. I shouldn't actually have to in the first place. If WT actually offered anything useful there would be at least a shred of evidence available on the internet. Anything, aside from choreographed fighting of course
EDIT:
Your weird wooden toys that you slap resemble coat hangers.
its called a wooden man, it trains speed and transition from blocking to counter punching through an opponents guard. again if a decent WT guy can land through the wooden man consistently, in range he can comfortabley land 4-5 punches on you before you had a chance to change levels or even counter.
I suggessted to you before that you wont get any experience of what wing tsun is capable of on the internet. If you want, i could post you a youtube clip of a kung fu duan piercing a full size water melon with two fingers, yknow, if videos make you happy,
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
Again, i was taking originally with einheri about highly technical striking, and then you brought up cung le. Its a bit lke talking about quality cars then bringing up a nissan micra. Then you progress to arabic kickboxing and i dont know whether you are being serious anymore.
You weren't actually having a discussion, it was just you saying 'I know nothing about kickboxing', which you've shown, evidently.
again thats simplistic naivety based on too much youtube mma, which makes you detached form the real world and practical self defence. Proper mua thai train clinch balance, its very difficult to throw or take a decent guy down, i ve seen these guys defend sweeps standing on one leg. Plus when you are in a thai clinch you will know about it, and in muay boran, they train clinch throws and hip tosses too. The reason none trains a high stansard of striking is becuase mma rules are in place to negate striking techniques.
MMA rules aren't nearly as limited as you make them out to be. Even then, back in Pride days, you could knee and kick a downed opponent in the head and MT guys were far from invincible so you're really talking out of your arse here.
there is no beauty to mma, i was being sarcsastic - and it is nothing like a real fight, as has been discussed to death on this thread alone. in real scenarios mma fighters anrt protected by rules favouring grapplers such as protection from eating knees, elbows or kick to the head when diving in for a takedown. All a wrestler has to do in the ufc is drop to a knee or all fours and all of a sudden the striker has all his options prohibitted. which is why its described as sport not combat.
What is a real fight then? Street fight, nah, too many external factors. MMA is the closest to a real, fair fight that you'll ever get. Either way, it's less limited than MT, MB etc. and yet you sing their praises as if they're somehow more realistic than MMA. The fact is that these MT guys would struggle in MMA because they can't handle grappling. You get a world class MT guy to learn grappling and now he's just a world class MMA fighter.
Again try charging for a take down to a decent muay thai fighter, he will kick your head off its shoulders i promise you, or if you managed to survive that, he will put your nose into the back of your skull with a few knees - bit like andersen silva did to rich franklyn in their ufc fight, even though silva is hardly a world class muay thai fighter.
Again, proof is there. This rarely happens in MMA. Reason why? MT by itself isn't that effective if you're fighting a well-rounded fighter. This whole idea that MT fighters can knee any opponent shooting for a takedown is ridiculous. People like Jose Aldo are ridiculously good at it but he's the exception and he's not a MT fighter, he's an MMA fighter who does MT and BJJ.
decent muay boran guys can kick huge chucks out of tree trunks, they are more than capable of breaking your arm or leg even trying to block a kick.
Yeah great, except what I personally do is irrelevant. Put them in an MMA fight and they will lose, even if you allow headbutts, they will lose because they can't grapple.
again i asked you to name these MT guys that have been ' taken out' and you named a nobody. The clip you posted was aparently an MMA title fight, in whcih both guys were striking and defending like a pair of drunks. so is suposse in that realm and not real life, general kick boxing does suffice, but then so may boxercise classes.
They are MT fighters who have been out-struck by boxers. They don't need to be world-class strikers, it's just proof that MT does not always beat other striking. My point is perfectly clear. And Nick Diaz is far from a slouch, his style is weird and unorthodox but it works against pretty much everyone, likewise, Santos is no slouch either, he was gassed by body shots and Diaz' aggressive style. He also has pretty bad cardio in general tbf though.
MMA guys are jack of all trades , or like to think they are, but have mastered none - i dont subscribe to this nonsesne that "80% of fights end up grappling on the floor"
maybe 80% fights of two drunks that cant stay standing up, which forms the majrority of fights. But 100% of fights start on the feet - so if your stand up is not up to scratch, fight will be over before it begins. Its not that easy to take someone down that knows what they are doing (and keep them down) and even more diffucult to avoid serious injury in trying.
maybe 80% fights of two drunks that cant stay standing up, which forms the majrority of fights. But 100% of fights start on the feet - so if your stand up is not up to scratch, fight will be over before it begins. Its not that easy to take someone down that knows what they are doing (and keep them down) and even more diffucult to avoid serious injury in trying.
Then feel free to explain why no pure MT fighter (as far as I'm aware) has ever successfully transferred to MMA? Firstly, I'll tell you that it's not because they think it's a worthless sport, and secondly it's got nothing to do with limited rules. The simple fact is that MT alone isn't good enough to beat MMA fighters. That's nothing against MT, I love MT as an art, but if you aren't well-rounded, you're never going to be great at MMA.
Again you are living in cuckoo land. any quality MT guy will wipe the floor striking with a typical MMA guy - but will he be able to take him down? in the UFC possibly where rules allow protection to do so, not in reality. And then youd have to contend with the strength of the thai clinch, a few rib breaking knees and jaw breaking elbows and the balance used to stay on their feet. i havent seen any mma fight where a decent knee has been thrown, in a muay thai fight no one would just plough in and try and judo throw an opponent, becuase they would get their rib smashed into their lung within a few seconds.
Cuckoo land? I'm the one with evidence that I'm right, you just say things and assume they are. You do realise you're doing that you know? MT is awesome for MMA and it has been successful in stopping grapplers going for takedowns but MT alone doesn't suffice and never will. No pure MT fighter will ever be good enough to compete at the top of MMA. The whole 'UFC protects grapplers' thing is also sort of untrue, given that Pride didn't have these rules and MT fighters didn't run around demolishing everyone with ease. They'd probably be even worse off now, considering how much MMA has evolved.
its called a wooden man, it trains speed and transition from blocking to counter punching through an opponents guard. again if a decent WT guy can land through the wooden man consistently, in range he can comfortabley land 4-5 punches on you before you had a chance to change levels or even counter.
Yeah great, it's awesome when your opponent doesn't fight back.
I suggessted to you before that you wont get any experience of what wing tsun is capable of on the internet. If you want, i could post you a youtube clip of a kung fu duan piercing a full size water melon with two fingers, yknow, if videos make you happy,
I just find it remarkable how this supposedly great martial art has absolutely no evidence of it actually working. Like, literally none. Beating up sticks and fruit doesn't count by the way.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
No you didn't. I posted Cung Le as an example of a kickboxer to show that not all kickboxing was 'cardio kickboxing'. Stop putting words into my mouth, again. .
Again, i was taking originally with einheri about highly technical striking, and then you brought up cung le. Its a bit lke talking about quality cars then bringing up a nissan micra. Then you progress to arabic kickboxing and i dont know whether you are being serious anymore.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
I know the standard of striking in MMA is largely poor. That's a shame, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the closest thing to a fight that can actually be regulated and shows that the greatest strikers in the world probably wouldn't last very long in 'real' fights. That's the beauty of it. How good you are at MT is irrelevant once you're on the ground and if you think just being good at MT is good enough then you're wrong. It's a shame that the striking is largely pretty awful in MMA (except higher up in the divisions, e.g. A. Silva, Aldo etc. That's why I like to watch striking competitions too. .
I know the standard of striking in MMA is largely poor. That's a shame, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the closest thing to a fight that can actually be regulated and shows that the greatest strikers in the world probably wouldn't last very long in 'real' fights. That's the beauty of it. How good you are at MT is irrelevant once you're on the ground and if you think just being good at MT is good enough then you're wrong. It's a shame that the striking is largely pretty awful in MMA (except higher up in the divisions, e.g. A. Silva, Aldo etc. That's why I like to watch striking competitions too. .
again thats simplistic naivety based on too much youtube mma, which makes you detached form the real world and practical self defence. Proper mua thai train clinch balance, its very difficult to throw or take a decent guy down, i ve seen these guys defend sweeps standing on one leg. Plus when you are in a thai clinch you will know about it, and in muay boran, they train clinch throws and hip tosses too. The reason none trains a high stansard of striking is becuase mma rules are in place to negate striking techniques.
there is no beauty to mma, i was being sarcsastic - and it is nothing like a real fight, as has been discussed to death on this thread alone. in real scenarios mma fighters anrt protected by rules favouring grapplers such as protection from eating knees, elbows or kick to the head when diving in for a takedown. All a wrestler has to do in the ufc is drop to a knee or all fours and all of a sudden the striker has all his options prohibitted. which is why its described as sport not combat.
Again try charging for a take down to a decent muay thai fighter, he will kick your head off its shoulders i promise you, or if you managed to survive that, he will put your nose into the back of your skull with a few knees - bit like andersen silva did to rich franklyn in their ufc fight, even though silva is hardly a world class muay thai fighter.
decent muay boran guys can kick huge chucks out of tree trunks, they are more than capable of breaking your arm or leg even trying to block a kick.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Cool but there's not really any proof for that when it comes to real fighting. Maybe the best MT fighter can beat the best 'kickboxer' but that doesn't really prove much because these are just individuals. Kickboxing and boxing have proven to be highly practical in real fighting, there are MMA champions who don't even use their feet and take out MT guys. .
Cool but there's not really any proof for that when it comes to real fighting. Maybe the best MT fighter can beat the best 'kickboxer' but that doesn't really prove much because these are just individuals. Kickboxing and boxing have proven to be highly practical in real fighting, there are MMA champions who don't even use their feet and take out MT guys. .
again i asked you to name these MT guys that have been ' taken out' and you named a nobody. The clip you posted was aparently an MMA title fight, in whcih both guys were striking and defending like a pair of drunks. so is suposse in that realm and not real life, general kick boxing does suffice, but then so may boxercise classes.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Most of the UFC champions right now are largely stand up fighters nowadays. Sure, they wouldn't stand a chance against the top MT guys in a MT fight but if you put a MT guy in the cage they're going to be choked in about two seconds and suddenly MT is useless. .
Most of the UFC champions right now are largely stand up fighters nowadays. Sure, they wouldn't stand a chance against the top MT guys in a MT fight but if you put a MT guy in the cage they're going to be choked in about two seconds and suddenly MT is useless. .
Again you are living in cuckoo land. any quality MT guy will wipe the floor striking with a typical MMA guy - but will he be able to take him down? in the UFC possibly where rules allow protection to do so, not in reality. And then youd have to contend with the strength of the thai clinch, a few rib breaking knees and jaw breaking elbows and the balance used to stay on their feet. i havent seen any mma fight where a decent knee has been thrown, in a muay thai fight no one would just plough in and try and judo throw an opponent, becuase they would get their rib smashed into their lung within a few seconds.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
I already explained why I'm not going to your weird schools. I shouldn't actually have to in the first place. If WT actually offered anything useful there would be at least a shred of evidence available on the internet. Anything, aside from choreographed fighting of course
EDIT:
Your weird wooden toys that you slap resemble coat hangers.
I already explained why I'm not going to your weird schools. I shouldn't actually have to in the first place. If WT actually offered anything useful there would be at least a shred of evidence available on the internet. Anything, aside from choreographed fighting of course
EDIT:
Your weird wooden toys that you slap resemble coat hangers.
its called a wooden man, it trains speed and transition from blocking to counter punching through an opponents guard. again if a decent WT guy can land through the wooden man consistently, in range he can comfortabley land 4-5 punches on you before you had a chance to change levels or even counter.
I suggessted to you before that you wont get any experience of what wing tsun is capable of on the internet. If you want, i could post you a youtube clip of a kung fu duan piercing a full size water melon with two fingers, yknow, if videos make you happy,
Original post by Dr. Bassman
You weren't actually having a discussion, it was just you saying 'I know nothing about kickboxing', which you've shown, evidently .
.
i knew more about kickboxing than you, who claimed to do it, ie the rules and what techniques arnt used, which you did not. evidently
Original post by Dr. Bassman
MMA rules aren't nearly as limited as you make them out to be. Even then, back in Pride days, you could knee and kick a downed opponent in the head and MT guys were far from invincible so you're really talking out of your arse here. .
MMA rules aren't nearly as limited as you make them out to be. Even then, back in Pride days, you could knee and kick a downed opponent in the head and MT guys were far from invincible so you're really talking out of your arse here. .
Who is talking about Pride , i watched this along with the first UFcs back in the 90s, you were talking about MMA today, which is a sport.Even in pride, elbows werent allowed to be used, so check your facts again. And even then plenty of MT' style 'boxers fighters competed- shogun, fillipovic, wanderlei etc. MMA today is nothing like UFC 1. i could list a whole host of anti fighting rules that exist today if i had the inclination. Therefore mma practitioners dont bother learning those techniques anymore.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
What is a real fight then? Street fight, nah, too many external factors. MMA is the closest to a real, fair fight that you'll ever get. Either way, it's less limited than MT, MB etc. and yet you sing their praises as if they're somehow more realistic than MMA. The fact is that these MT guys would struggle in MMA because they can't handle grappling. You get a world class MT guy to learn grappling and now he's just a world class MMA fighter. .
What is a real fight then? Street fight, nah, too many external factors. MMA is the closest to a real, fair fight that you'll ever get. Either way, it's less limited than MT, MB etc. and yet you sing their praises as if they're somehow more realistic than MMA. The fact is that these MT guys would struggle in MMA because they can't handle grappling. You get a world class MT guy to learn grappling and now he's just a world class MMA fighter. .
A real fight is exactly that, it could be in a street, a pub, your grandmas house for all intents and purposes. The fact that is un rehearsed, unpoliced by rules, unrefereed and probably not televised or on youtube for you to watch and develop your pretty dumb ideas from, makes it real. No point rehearsing for fights in "predictable protected scenarios without external factors" is there?
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Again, proof is there. This rarely happens in MMA. Reason why? MT by itself isn't in that effective if you're fighting a well-rounded fighter. This whole idea that MT fighters can knee any opponent shooting for a takedown is ridiculous. People like Jose Aldo are ridiculously good at it but he's the exception and he's not a MT fighter, he's an MMA fighter who does MT and BJJ. .
Again, proof is there. This rarely happens in MMA. Reason why? MT by itself isn't in that effective if you're fighting a well-rounded fighter. This whole idea that MT fighters can knee any opponent shooting for a takedown is ridiculous. People like Jose Aldo are ridiculously good at it but he's the exception and he's not a MT fighter, he's an MMA fighter who does MT and BJJ. .
so this aldo is the exception , but he isnt even a recognised top class MT practioner. The fact hes trained BJJ and MT doesnt make him an MMA fighter - MMA is a sport, i train multiple styles but im no MMA sportsmen, in the same way i have boxed before but im no competitve boxer. like i said in my last post your experience of mma bouts doenst show the reality that various mua thai guys have great stand up defence, becuase in muay boran bouts, both are allowed to throw and take down if they wish. but they prefer , generally , to stand and deliver knees in the clinch which has more chance of ending the fight quickly.
I watched the Fight science program which offerred all martail artists to try generate the most damaging force to a dummy with one strike of choice-it included boxers and mma fighter punches, taekwando spinning kicks etc. Unsurprisingly the Muay thai guy using one Knee from clinch and regsitered over 1000 psi, by far the most impact and computer gen showed it would have cracked 3 ribs and probably triggered internal bleeding.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Yeah great, except what I personally do is irrelevant. Put them in an MMA fight and they will lose, even if you allow headbutts, they will lose because they can't grapple. .
Yeah great, except what I personally do is irrelevant. Put them in an MMA fight and they will lose, even if you allow headbutts, they will lose because they can't grapple. .
yes of course
Original post by Dr. Bassman
They are MT fighters who have been out-struck by boxers. They don't need to be world-class strikers, it's just proof that MT does not always beat other striking. My point is perfectly clear. And Nick Diaz is far from a slouch, his style is weird and unorthodox but it works against pretty much everyone, likewise, Santos is no slouch either, he was gassed by body shots and Diaz' aggressive style. He also has pretty bad cardio in general tbf though.
.
They are MT fighters who have been out-struck by boxers. They don't need to be world-class strikers, it's just proof that MT does not always beat other striking. My point is perfectly clear. And Nick Diaz is far from a slouch, his style is weird and unorthodox but it works against pretty much everyone, likewise, Santos is no slouch either, he was gassed by body shots and Diaz' aggressive style. He also has pretty bad cardio in general tbf though.
.
Your making fantasical comparisons. In MMA you have ex wrestling and bjj international and proven champions competing but no top end MT guys, so they are never going to be tested. From the clips you have shown me, i could safely say ive sparred with better strikers than nick diaz, and hes an mma title holder??
I can also safely say if he approached any decent muay boran guy the way he did in that clip and took that many leg kicks, he wouldnt be able to stand inside the first round. so how is he going to grapple/punch/ win the fight in real life again?Original post by Dr. Bassman
Then feel free to explain why no pure MT fighter (as far as I'm aware) has ever successfully transferred to MMA? Firstly, I'll tell you that it's not because they think it's a worthless sport, and secondly it's got nothing to do with limited rules. The simple fact is that MT alone isn't good enough to beat MMA fighters. That's nothing against MT, I love MT as an art, but if you aren't well-rounded, you're never going to be great at MMA. .
Then feel free to explain why no pure MT fighter (as far as I'm aware) has ever successfully transferred to MMA? Firstly, I'll tell you that it's not because they think it's a worthless sport, and secondly it's got nothing to do with limited rules. The simple fact is that MT alone isn't good enough to beat MMA fighters. That's nothing against MT, I love MT as an art, but if you aren't well-rounded, you're never going to be great at MMA. .
it could be that lots of people who arnt spotty teenagers, dont actually give a toss about MMA, ever thought of that possiblilty? Laregly people only compete in MMA for the money, even fomr the start it ahs hardly attracted the great and good of martial arts legend, apart from a few wrestlers and vale tudo brazilians. The greats of Muay thai won everything at home (thailand) then went to europe america and japan to beat all the known kickboxers. Some then went into convential boxing too and became world champions (payakaroon), probably werent compelled to enter largely a grappling sport.
I could ask the same question of you, ie why dont 'mma fighters enter the WBC thais championships, or even just the lumpinee nationals under Thai rules - the reason is they would last minutes and proabbly hobble away with a career threatening injury . I think a couple probably have,but got trashed so we never heard about it.
Why risk this when they can make a comfortable living in a padded cage in the ufc .
Original post by Dr. Bassman
You get a world class MT guy to learn grappling and now he's just a world class MMA fighter .
You get a world class MT guy to learn grappling and now he's just a world class MMA fighter .
No you dont, you get a MT fighter that can grapple (which many can aready do in standing form) Some train other styles too, but then they are jsut fighters that have mastered more than one style - this idea wasnt invented by dana white nor does it mean they are 'mma fighters' all of a sudden, 'mma' is jsut an americanised branding given by tv networks to excite nerdy teenage fight fans.
Original post by Dr. Bassman
Yeah great, it's awesome when your opponent doesn't fight back.
I just find it remarkable how this supposedly great martial art has absolutely no evidence of it actually working. Like, literally none. Beating up sticks and fruit doesn't count by the way.
Yeah great, it's awesome when your opponent doesn't fight back.
I just find it remarkable how this supposedly great martial art has absolutely no evidence of it actually working. Like, literally none. Beating up sticks and fruit doesn't count by the way.
jsut a means to developing speed,power and accuracy. Do hanging bags fight you back in MMA now lol?
(edited 11 years ago)
I'm thinking about doing something along with the gym to help me if put into a fight situation- I was thinking Muay Thai. Would you recommend Muay Thai?
Original post by Ryan2159
I'm thinking about doing something along with the gym to help me if put into a fight situation- I was thinking Muay Thai. Would you recommend Muay Thai?
Well rounded striking and clinching with alive training, sounds good for unarmed self defence.
Original post by BillyBongos
There's so much violence in this world. If we were all peaceful, then martial arts really isn't necessary, and we could spend our time in more meaningful pursuits. people in society still fight and hurt each other? Its so medieval, and I have stopped doing martial arts as there are more important things out there to study.
(trained in boxing, karate, and Wing Chun kung fu)
(trained in boxing, karate, and Wing Chun kung fu)
What's the point of this post, are you trying to convince people to stop doing something they find enjoyable because you look down on it, to me that doesn't seems like a very modern and progressive viewpoint. It's so medieval.
Original post by BillyBongos
There's so much violence in this world. If we were all peaceful, then martial arts really isn't necessary, and we could spend our time in more meaningful pursuits. people in society still fight and hurt each other? Its so medieval, and I have stopped doing martial arts as there are more important things out there to study.
(trained in boxing, karate, and Wing Chun kung fu)
(trained in boxing, karate, and Wing Chun kung fu)
Then i guess you havn't truly understood the term 'martial arts'.
Original post by BillyBongos
There's so much violence in this world. If we were all peaceful, then martial arts really isn't necessary, and we could spend our time in more meaningful pursuits. people in society still fight and hurt each other? Its so medieval, and I have stopped doing martial arts as there are more important things out there to study.
You do realise people studying physics and chemistry got more people killed than martial arts ever did
Original post by BillyBongos
please explain it to me
If you havn't understood the true meaning of martial arts by training in boxing karate and wing chun i dont think anything i would say would change your opinion lol.
does anyone here like to invent their own moves/techniques etc?
[INDENT]
what have you invented
Original post by High VOLTAGE
does anyone here like to invent their own moves/techniques etc?
what have you invented
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
[INDENT]
what have you invented
what have you invented
not invented but like improvise, like picking stuff up from different forms and maybe combining techniques and what not
Original post by BillyBongos
why do you think I said it? you've only interpreted what I've said towards one particular point of view, yet there are many ways to view what I posted. Try a more balanced approach
Let's not kid ourselves I am biased as hell, and so are you. You came into this thread the "Martial Arts Society" and tried to bash martial arts, now I am no Sherlock Holmes but I think you have an agenda.
You didn't make a objective retort to my imitation of your argument, you instead chose to babble in an obscure fashion about views and balanced opinions. Nothing of value in reality, maybe you are trying to become the riddler or something. I can't pretend to know your intention; but make a point because so far you haven't made a valid one.
Worst of all you made me agree with Indo-Chinese Food, who cares who studies what martial art on what night on what time on whatever, it's irrelevant. People die every day of many different reasons' life is too short to care what hobby a guy or girl does on a Wednesday night.
You stated,
If we were all peaceful
You went on to say,
then martial arts really isn't necessary
you second mistake, of many might I add, you assumed martial arts are all about street fighting and self defense, total nonsense. There are many benefits: fitness, confidence, competition, discipline etc. people do this stuff for different reasons.
and we could spend our time in more meaningful pursuits.
Now who are you to define meaningful pursuit I will await your credentials. If you are in fact the oracle of all knowledge you can surely convince us easily. If you're not then you are just another narrow minded know it all.
and I have stopped doing martial arts as there are more important things out there to study.
Fantastic. I hope whatever you do instead of martial arts is useful to you, that doesn't give you the right to be a snob.
I hope this post will enlighten you, no one knows anything, peoples hobbies are none of your concern, don't be some judgmental.
In reality you will probably come back try to argue, waste your time (and mine), contribute nothing. Here's some advice don't do something constructive instead. Continuing to argue for arguments sake is really dumb, it's so medieval.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by BillyBongos
you sound very aggressive, it may be advisable to go outside for a while and take some lessons in Tai Chi, yoga or meditation. I assure you that it will do you the world of good. It may help your grammar too
Has this post got a point, we are in the "The Martial Arts Society" thread, you can try to defame me all you want but at the end of the day we're just anonymous people on the internet, I don't really care.
Now are you going to post a point relevant to martial arts? and if so what is it?
Hey, I do Freestyle Kung Fu and Kickboxing. It was and still is a BIG change for me, as I used to do ballet, tap dancing, jazz dancing, modern dancing, hip-hop dancing and cheerleading as well as speech, drama and singing classes. But now I have found my inner ninja! I am new to this site so...I kinda need some friends!
Martial Arts FTW!
Sophie.
Martial Arts FTW!
Sophie.
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