China Triumph and Turmoil? **** off

Has anyone else been following Niall Ferguson's three part series on China? I've just finished watching it and as a British Chinese I feel incredibly angry and insulted at his completely biased account of China. What does everyone else think about it? Summary at the End

Firstly the entire tone of the programs has been sinister. He seeks to portray China as an "Evil Empire" that constantly seeks to impose itself on other nations. He has absolutely nothing positive to say about China or its people. He travelled around the country being sarcastic, arrogant, and condescending to everyone he met, twisting their words to support his ridiculous arguments. One example of his **** was lasts weeks program when he was talking about China's addiction to neon lights, and he shot immdiadely from scenes of Shanghi, to the government building in Beijing hundreds of miles away. He then goes on to say "This is the only building without neon lights" or somthing similar. What an absolute dick. Who does he think he's fooling? Thats like comparing Blackpool pleasure beach to Westminster!

He equates today's Chinese government with that of the first emperor over 2000 years ago, really? China at that time was a divided country run by warlords, maybe his turmoil BS would stand up then but not now. He presents China as a country riddled with political protests and suppression of human rights. Of course these problems exist, but not on the same scale as he makes out. A lot of people in China have been lifted from absolute poverty, but it's not perfect, no country is. And as for human rights, I don't think I need to list the human rights abuses going on in a country like the USA. He says things like "China has no desire for western style democracy", well why on earth should they? It doesn't even work here so how would it work in a country with a completely different strucure, people, and tradition. British democracy has taken centuries to develop, and it is far from perfect. I think modern China isn't doing too badly for 70 odd years of existance.They instead should seek to is impliment democratic reforms, this is precisely what the Chinese government is doing. Such as reforms to the death penalty ect.

His depiction of Mao was one of the most disgusting. He constantly refers to him as a tyrant and a mass murderer, likening him to Hitler and Stalin. Mao made huge mistakes that had grave consequences, but his achievments far outweigh the negatives. And Ferguson implies that Mao actively set out, on his own, to murder his own people. So if that's true, why does everyone in China love him? Some of Hitler's policies actually benefited poor Germans, but he isn't celebrated for it is he? And there is no mention of any of the things Mao's wife or the Gang of Four did. It's all Mao's fault! The reason virtually all Chinese love Mao is because everything we see in China now, was made possible by him.


His overiding point was that the Chinese civilization is on the brink of collapse or "turmoil", and that they are constantly trying to avoid it. Well he's wrong, but what country wouldn't resist that anyway? Oh but because the "communist state" did it it's a problem! He criticises China's communism, its capitalism, and its nationalism. I sense that Ferguson is aching for turmoil in China, he wants China to collapse. But for what reason, I don't know, and don't really care either! China isn't going anywhere but up, but please people don't fear them! All the trade that China is doing across the world is above board and mutually beneficial. I think we all should be far more fearful of America's presence in the world.

Please don't let this man's poison fool you. Please feel free to criticise China if you want, but at least do it objectively, taking into consideration all points of view.

Thank you for reading if you did!


SUMMARY: Niall Ferguson is a right wing Neo-colonial dickhead who hates Chinese Civilization and wants to influence us to think like him. Don't listen to him.

China is not the UK, or the USA, or any other western country for that matter. The Chinese system has elements of Communism, Capitalism, Democracy, and Autocracy too. It will take time to develop this into a well rounded system of government, but they ARE working on it! May I remind you that China has only existed for about 70 years, give it a break already! Lets talk about British democracy shall we? A party is in power, that didn't win the election, implimenting policies that were not in their manifesto, and ignoring the opinions of the public. Ah democracy, how liberating. It more than wouldn't work, it's completely incompatable.

I was saying that Japan is no longer presented badly by the west as it is considered a conquered nation. The US has lots of influence in Japan still.
And what so, he is completely impartial in his review of China? You respect his opinions, I respect yours, why don't you respect mine?

Classy of you, you dumb-ass retard.

Links to economic reports please? I'll bet I read far more than you do and I have never read a single one that definitively states India's economic growth is finished. Of course you would read one report on India's current challenges (even though ALL nations are currently facing challenges) and wrongly take it as a decisive report of India's future.

The overwhelming majority of economic reports point out that no nation (even China) has the growth potential that India does in the next 20-30 years. Get over it. The West is close to recession. China is growing at 9%, India is growing at 7%....doesn't seem like they're doing too badly to me.

You can stick with your ignorant 'Slumdog Millionaire' mentality towards India, no problem at all. To be honest, I don't think Indians place much value on your opinion of them or India. But don't start throwing out statements on here, like you're an intelligent, educated expert on the subject of India because you've read ONE article. You're not. Your posts only expose you for the unintelligent crap-slag you are. Go ahead and reply, I look forward to making you look even stupider. HAHAHA! Suck it!

I know China isn't the UK or USA, but theres nothing intrisically different about the Chinese that means they can't have the same priviledges that we here in this country enjoy. Of course it can't be done overnight in China, I was just asking you which system is better in your opinion.

On the bit about Japan, I'm pretty sure that the government have actually requested the prescence of U.S troops. So what you said about Japan being a 'conquered nation' just doesn't make sense at all, they are a sovereign nation trading with others on the free market, so of course U.S interests will be present in Japan but this is business related, just like how China has influence in various countries that it has economic dealings with.

I respect all opinions, its just that I hold some higher in regards than others. Just like what you've said about Japan here, most of what you've commented about the documentary is without sense or proof, and is therefore little more than a biased viewpoint.

I have read multiple articles and books on India, and studied it at degree level at a redbrick uni... I also work with Indian businesses on a regular basis in my line of business. India's development will stall, not too soon because they are so far behind, but they simply cannot keep up with the rate at which their population is growing. They are already slowing slightly: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17201132

I can't be bothered reading your rambling pubescent diatribe but Chairman Mao was a cold-hearted mass murderer and the modern Chinese state is really quite clearly corrupt and autocratic

I believe the British system in its current form is better, and that the Chinese system is not as bad is made out. The apparent "priviledges" of deomocracy you speak of will come in time.

Japan was defeated by the US militarily and so the US has more freedom to influence Eastern politics through Japan, and a country like South Korea. For example the US have military exercises in the seas surrounding North Korea.
Vietnam however, was not defeated, and so the US refused to trade with it for 2 decades.

you may not be aware, but there has been a global recession, the whole world is experiencing a slow down in growth einstein. What is the eurozone growth forecast for 2012?
where is this economic report you were elluding too that backs up the crap you had stated earlier?.
And are you seriously trying to con all of us that someone in their right mind would employ someone of your standard lol?

I believe the British system in its current form is better, and that the Chinese system is not as bad is made out. The apparent "priviledges" of deomocracy you speak of will come in time.

Japan was defeated by the US militarily and so the US has more freedom to influence Eastern politics through Japan, and a country like South Korea. For example the US have military exercises in the seas surrounding North Korea.
Vietnam however, was not defeated, and so the US refused to trade with it for 2 decades.

Dude, you do realise that the U.S military can only have such a large presence in East Asia, because South Korea and Japan allow them to be there. And the reason why they want U.S troops to be based there is for their own protection against North Korea and to a lesser extent, China. Ultimately the Japanese and South Koreans call the shots, if for some biazarre reason they want the U.S out, the Americans will have no choice but to remove their troops, it simply would not be politically posible for them to remain there if that were the case.

I have read multiple articles and books on India, and studied it at degree level at a redbrick uni... I also work with Indian businesses on a regular basis in my line of business. India's development will stall, not too soon because they are so far behind, but they simply cannot keep up with the rate at which their population is growing. They are already slowing slightly: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17201132

who's?

I work for myself... I would call you a name, but you'll only grass as if we are 5 year old's in a class room You would have been saying the same thing before China's false start in the 90s... and India is doing absolutely nothing to sort out it's population crisis to boot. The country will be totally screwed if they grow as expected.

You studied India at degree level at a redbrick uni.........? What Indian business do you work with, on what line of business? And how does working with small Indian businesses qualify you to speak on the Indian economy today let alone 20 years from now? Does a company importing paper clips from China make them an expert on the Chinese export model of economic growth?

How will its population growth slow India economic growth? If anything it will increase it. Ever heard of a demographic dividend? It's one of the main reasons economists say India will grow not slow in the next few decades. And how on earth does that article indicate that India's growth will slow in the future. All it states is that growth in ONE QUARTER was lower than usual, understandable given the high interest rates which are set to come down in the next month or two.

India still has plenty of reforms in the bag. It's growth is driven by domestic consumption which is only going to benefit from it's large, growing population. When the recession hit the world a few years ago, China had to pump in over $580bn to keep it's growth going. India only had to pump in $18bn because it's growth (only a few % lower than China's) is steady and strong. India hasn't even gotten going yet and you are already predicting it's slowdown? Ha.

Basically what you did was you searched on Google, clicked on the first link and used it to back up your weak argument, without even realising it was a weak article to back you up.

For every poorly researched article you can quote, I can quote one that contradicts you.

This is thread about China not India. If you have a reply that isn't full of lying BS do so. Otherwise stop wasting my time.

India will have shortfalls in infrastructure, skills, and creativity, all holding it back. These a problems they are barely addressing, and they will slam into them in a big way in a decade or two. (http://www.economist.com/node/17145035) They might sort it out, and they will probably grow after they hit this wall. But the fact exists, on current projections it exists.

I couldn't find the other article, I can't really be bothered to find my old economists and rifle through them page by page, then find the corresponding web article, for what I can only assume from the red gems are worthless posters more interested in winding people up than debate.

By all means post your evidence and academic agreement that India will grow and grow and grow pretty much indefinitely, and i'll take a look at that. O, you don't have evidence that your'e basing your point on? It's just a vague feeling. Ok, i'm glad we cleared that up

That is correct... I studied India from independence to today. Above you can see 2 more articles which agree with me, and highlight problems India will face. Yes, more population generally means more GDP, but we have never seen how a country with that many citizens copes with such ridiculous burden. I didn't say India is going to stall any time really soon, I think it will stall in the next decade or two, when the population, the lack of/impossibility to create infrastructure, food shortages, disease, skills shortages, poor government policies which can't help but be over centralised and corrupt etc. etc. all catch up with it.

It's strange that you say you can quote like for like one that contradicts me, yet you haven't? Great work o wise one. Better go do some google searching LOL.

Actually the rate of population growth of both china and india has been falling in the last 3 years, is there any subject you are not completly ignorant on? And we have already established you have no understanding about economic growth during a global recession, or comparative international gdp figures. That being the case, is this the best thread for you to be partaking in, couldnt you find one about how to tie a shoe lace or whats your favourite crisps flavour?
And why would i "grass" as if you were " a 5 yearold in a class room" Having said that why would any one with more than one braincell threaten to "call you a name" like a 5 year old.

India will have shortfalls in infrastructure, skills, and creativity, all holding it back. These a problems they are barely addressing, and they will slam into them in a big way in a decade or two. (http://www.economist.com/node/17145035)