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Is it just me or is there a culture of manbashing within education? watch

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    i agree with db, as a female sociologist i am open minded enough to see the inequalities that both men and women face. sure, there is a wage gape. but it is not necessarily because of male dominance. the main reason is female concentration in the part time employment sector, and why are women concentrated there? many women CHOOSE this type of employment when they have had children, they want to work around their kids. i know i would choose that option, so therefore i would be choosing to be on a lower wage. as for the domestic work thing, i think a lot of guys are actually pretty good now and it's far more equal than some women make out. i feel sympathetic towards men in some cases, i think custody issues are overlooked to a ridiculous extent, and the same applies to divorce issues. i think us girls have got it pretty good to be honest!
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    (Original post by munchkin18)
    i agree with db, as a female sociologist i am open minded enough to see the inequalities that both men and women face. sure, there is a wage gape. but it is not necessarily because of male dominance. the main reason is female concentration in the part time employment sector, and why are women concentrated there? many women CHOOSE this type of employment when they have had children, they want to work around their kids. i know i would choose that option, so therefore i would be choosing to be on a lower wage. as for the domestic work thing, i think a lot of guys are actually pretty good now and it's far more equal than some women make out. i feel sympathetic towards men in some cases, i think custody issues are overlooked to a ridiculous extent, and the same applies to divorce issues. i think us girls have got it pretty good to be honest!
    You're right about women concentrated in the low paid part time sector, yes. But why do they choose to do those sorts of jobs in the first place? Because they accept their primary responsibility as care provider for the children (see Exhibit C). This doesn't necessarily have to be the woman's role.

    And anyway, the Cumberland Infirmary case was about unequal pay for comparable jobs, and that was the point I was making. They won their case but it was hushed up for fear of sparking off a chain of huge pay claims.
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    £300m pay claim at Cumberland Infirmary here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...711016,00.html
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    (Original post by spacedonkey)
    £300m pay claim at Cumberland Infirmary here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...711016,00.html
    thank you
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    ICM Poll finds a third of people think that if a woman flirts she is partially responsible for being raped: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16618.shtml

    Rape Convictions Hit All Time Low : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4296433.stm
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    if there's one thing I can't stand, it's women who get positions of power. Have you ever noticed how women seem to love power tripping. All the women managers of companies or "bosses", seem to be taking one giant power trip. It seems they have the whole "let's get back at the men" attitude.
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    The past is the past. I don’t think it’s fair to make the men of today take responsibility for what happened a long time ago.
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    I find this thread unutterably depressing.
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    Women have a lot more space these days. Women can be feminine and to some degree masculine, while still being seen as 100% woman. A guy crosses the line into femininity and hes gay or whatever.

    While females have gotten more leeway stereotype wise, men have stayed the same

    Also, far far more work has been done into breast cancer than testicular cancer. Then theres the whole fathers rights issue.

    Its called double standards - when it goes too far the other way

    I don't have anything towards women of power though. Theres gotta be a balance. People say you can never have a perfect balance, well that doesnt mean you should ever stop trying
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    (Original post by spacedonkey)
    ICM Poll finds a third of people think that if a woman flirts she is partially responsible for being raped: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16618.shtml
    [/url]
    The sad thing is most of the people here will read that and still say with a straight face that there is no need for feminism.
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    An eye for an eye...
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    (Original post by spacedonkey)
    You're right about women concentrated in the low paid part time sector, yes. But why do they choose to do those sorts of jobs in the first place? Because they accept their primary responsibility as care provider for the children (see Exhibit C). This doesn't necessarily have to be the woman's role.
    Or you could use the word 'choose'. I think feminism is innappropriately named, I'm all for equality of the sexes though the word 'feminism' seems to imply improving womens rights only, which is unfair in my opinion, whichever sex has the better conditions.

    I think pop feminism, where man-bashing and the superiority of women is a key feature, is an increasing mentality in society - looking at kids causing trouble, increasingly its gangs of girls not boys who are getting into trouble, so obviously they feel they have the power to take their lives into their own hands.

    Im a mathemetician, not a socioligist, but its obvious that a lot of people are either pro or anti, and there are few 'lets just be equal'. Girls could whinge all day about how they're hard done by, and so could boys. At the end of the day its not actually productive, reasoned discussion is. Why only focus on rape and anti-woman things? You cant draw any conclusions without both sides of the argument.
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    (Original post by spacedonkey)
    You're right about women concentrated in the low paid part time sector, yes. But why do they choose to do those sorts of jobs in the first place? Because they accept their primary responsibility as care provider for the children (see Exhibit C). This doesn't necessarily have to be the woman's role.
    And anyway, the Cumberland Infirmary case was about unequal pay for comparable jobs, and that was the point I was making. They won their case but it was hushed up for fear of sparking off a chain of huge pay claims.

    Mabye they like looking after the children. Mabye they choose to do it on the basis that they enjoy doing it and would not want to leave there kids at school and with childminders for 8 or more hours a day. My mother took only part time work when my little brothers were born because she wanted to look after them not because it was her job. Now that she is a qualified accountant she could go to work and make more money from accounting than from the government child benefits and tax allowance but she choose to work from home so that she can pick my little brothers up from school and be with all her 5 kids when they come in. She could go out to work if she wants because me and my brother both come in usually at the right times on different days (were at college) to pick up ben and dan. Plus their school runs an after school club until six.
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    "You'll come on a message board like this, and see men being attacked far more than women, for saying similar things, or telling of having done similar things. You'll go out to a club, and find yourself being expected to buy drinks for women, just for being a man. You'll find yourself having to be the one to do the chatting up, in order to get anywhere with the opposite sex (how easy would you find it to approach a member of the opposite sex, ladies?)."

    actually ive noticed more women being told off for making sexist comments on this forum than men. tho i admit this is unusual in society in general and i have commented on it b4. The chatting up thing is sadly true. i think its mostly because the one with the highest sex drive usually does the chatting up XD. is annoying tho that more women dont have the courage to approach men but i personaly have been labled a man eater for doing so, so im not suprised. (im blatently not btw. i just have some self confidence and know what i want) i think women have a much easier job of finding a man than men do of finding a woman and i cant see that changing netime soon. unfortunate but true.

    "The Handsmaid Tale - A novel all about how a male dominated society is all
    rubbish and distopic."

    if u had payed ne attention at all u would know that this book is *anti* feminist!!!! its a dystopia about if feminism went too far on the de-objectisation of women and the anti-porn stuff. If u notice it is the women themselves who created this society!!!

    "Psychology I admit, some bits are slightly manbashing, like saying I am wanting to sleep with my mum. F*** that, she's old."

    :rofl: i havnt done phycology but Oedipus theory is just plain wrong (in the eew gross way). it isnt just about men. it also claims that women are sexually attracted to their fathers and look for men with similar qualties. its a much debated phycological theory. i rele dont think its nething about man bashing. it was thought up by a man after all.

    "Exhibit C: women still bear the bulk of the burden of domestic work, even though most of them work full time"

    sadly true but we bring it on ourselves. read topgirls. yet another "feminist" novel. all how hard it is to acheive balance both between the sexes an in a work/life kinda way. it also highlights the way women bring down both themselves and other women. i would go as far as to say that it doesnt blame modern men for *ne* of societies problems.

    "While females have gotten more leeway stereotype wise, men have stayed the same"

    if a woman acts manly every1 assumes shes a lesbian. if a man is camp every1 assumes hes gay. it goes both ways but i agree women have a little more leeway. the male stereotype hasnt stayed the same btw. its become alot more blurred. have u seen the "manly men" thread in H and R?

    "Maybe they like looking after the children. Mabye they choose to do it on the basis that they enjoy doing it and would not want to leave there kids at school and with childminders for 8 or more hours a day."

    there is also the choice to not have kids... why has no1 mentioned this b4? big feminist thing right?? i personally dont want kids but i know that if i did it would be me looking after them. lets face it how many men would agree to be house husbands??? they would have to be very secure to go against the traditional provider image and put up with other men looking down on them for it. if i was a man i wouldnt do it! coming from a household where my parents both earn i dont think its right to have no1 looking after the kids. dumping them with some1 else while u work just isnt right.

    then i guess there is the issue of housework. men now r great and will offer to do stuff but they rnt very good at it in general (mostly cos their mothers never made them do it). my bf despite living alone, for it must be about 7 years, cant cook (cba) and has trouble putting a fitted sheet on his bed lol. b4 ne1 says it he doesnt put it on for me. he rele is that useless. (omfg a sexist comment.../me waits for some1 to pounce)

    i rele dont think that men and women are ever going to acheive "equality". maybe we allready have an "equal but different" thing going on tho.

    wow that rele was a long post
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    (Original post by spacedonkey)
    I so disagree with you here DB. Where do I start?

    Exhibit A: gender pay gap still exists (see recent £30m pay settlement at Cumberland Infirmary)

    Exhibit B: recent news re: rape convictions being at all time low and attitudes to rape suggesting a regression to the old "she was asking for it" thing

    Exhibit C: women still bear the bulk of the burden of domestic work, even though most of them work full time

    Does that suggest equality? Feminism has done its job?
    Exhibit A: Well, OK, you may be referring specifically to a case of women being paid less than men, for the same work, but looking at things in a more general sense (as I'm in no position to refer to this example), the average salary figures between the genders are misleading. As I've touched upon, the average salary figures for men are skewed by a few, very high-earning men, whose figures are that many times higher than the average salary, that, in themselves, they serve to up the average salary figure for men in general, slightly; for skewed data such as this, the mean salary figure, which is quoted by feminists, is inappropriate a measure of the average; being unrepresentative of the salaries for men.

    Also, there are other considerations: might I put to you the idea that maybe men are that bit more ambitious, in the workplace? What I'm about to report as to isn't exactly brilliant evidence, but I've heard of many a survey taken by employees in certain industries, the results of which suggesting that female employees are less interested in the prospects of promotion, than are the male employees; perhaps men have more drive, and mental aggression, when it comes to business? From my own experiences, I'd say that men were more likely to, say, work on their job outside of office hours, than were women; men and women do have differing priorities to one another.

    At any rate: men are expected to earn more. How many men do you hear of dreaming of having a rich girlfriend, as compared to women dreaming of having a rich boyfriend (come on, now, admit it)? Again, the idea of 'supply and demand' kicks in as a contributory factor. Many women seem to want women to earn as much as men, yet, themselves, seem to want a boyfriend who outearns her; such a situation seems contradictory, and obviously isn't plausible. I'm not suggesting that all women are gold diggers, but it just seems that most wish for a boyfriend with at least some form of financial stability; women don't seem to be happy with the idea of a jobless boyfriend, but men seem not to care as to a girlfriend/potential girlfriend's earnings. Plus, who spends more on the other: men on women, or women on men (hint: not women)? Another social expectation placed upon men; serves to render the average pay figures not as relevant.

    Also: who want kids more: men or women? Women are the ones who have the maternal instincts, and who, as such, are more likely to make the decision of parenthood. This said, it surely follows that women are going to be more likely to bear the brunt of the responsibility of raising children, and hence in sacrificing their careers; thus going some way to explaining the disparity between the figures. Admittedly, there is also the social expectation placed upon women to be the ones to raise the children primarily, but this stems from a woman's naturally greater ability with children; related to this fact, is that that women are awarded custody of children in 95% of custody cases. If women aren't better in this area, and, hence, the social expectation discussed isn't at least slightly justified, then surely it follows that this is grossly unfair? 95% is one hell of a statistic. At any rate, I understand not as to why women feel degraded by this prevailing pattern of women sacrificing work in favour of rearing children; surely it's an admirable, important, caring role? I think that women should have the choice, though, but feel that, 99% of the time, they do. Women don't have to sacrifice their careers to look after kids; blaming it all on some sort of social expectation does seem a tad lame.

    Exhibit B: But how are these figures to be interpreted? Remember, the conviction figures are surely going to be relative (i.e. a percentage of all cases). What if more false accusations of rape (which certainly wouldn't surprise me) are taking place? And, as regards the belief by some that the woman was partly responsible: interpret with extreme care. I'm sure that no-one (spare, perhaps, a tiny number of disturbed, complete ********s)'s suggesting that women deserved to be raped; perhaps the figures imply that some people accept that women could do more to protect themselves from potential rape. These figures, I don't believe, suggest that people think any fewer convictions should be made, proportionately. I know what I'm saying is treading upon dangerous territory, so please don't take it the wrong way, but there is a difference between encouraging something, and deserving it. I mean, if I were to dress up in women's clothing, and skip past a gang of thugs (apologies for the most random of examples), I don't think I'd deserve the beating I might very well get, but I would most certainly have encouraged it; I wouldn't have acted in very responsible a manner. This idea has been discussed in the 'Do some people encourage bullying' thread; it was concluded, by many, that, while no-one deserved it, some did encourage it. Maybe this is similar to some people's belief about rape?

    Exhibit C: I have two ideas, as regards this. Firstly: whether or not men or women share an uneven amount of the housework, in any given household, I honestly know not. But, in my opinion, women seem to prefer housework, than do men. And, no, this isn't my pathetic, chauvinistic attempt at justifying such an inequality, but it's what I've observed. I had a mother who seemed house-proud in the extreme, seeing it as a sign of respect, to have a spotless abode; women seem to care more than do men, about, say, curtains being straight, or clothes being ironed. Some may argue that my example is old-fashioned, but I have other experiences which support my argument: I've shared houses with guys and girls, and, very often, the girls seemed very quick to do housework. One girl seemed to clean the floors, obsessively, every couple of days: was that through oppression/social expectation, or personal choice? Maybe a lot of the reported additional housework performed by women is optional? I'd never expect a wife or girlfriend to do more housework than me, but if she did so of her own accord, well.....also, it isn't fair, in such circumstances, to expect the man to do as much; if women have higher standards with regards to this, then they have higher standards, as regards to this. If I had a wife with such habits as those described, I'd find it unreasonable to be expected to do as much as her, as I'd consider it to be excessive. Us guys are generally a little bit more lax, in this respect, it's true; but let's not immediately brand us as chauvinists who wish to see our wives slave over the house, because it isn't always as clear cut as that.

    Also, this may be the case for housework; but what about D.I.Y.? Painting the house? Mowing the lawn? Clearing the gutters? Fixing the TV? Assembling new furniture? Doing work on the car? In my household, my mum did do more housework, in the traditional sense of the word, but my dad was responsible for other tasks, such as those described above. And, with all respect, I do think that there are certain tasks that men are better at, and hence men are going to be the ones to perform, thus making it logical that women might be that bit more likely to perform the traditional housework, to compensate. Actually, my mum did work slightly harder than my dad, but this seemed to be through choice; she seemed overly houseproud, and my dad would sometimes even suggest that she was doing too much. Maybe women, in general, are that bit more houseproud?

    In all of the examples above, I'm not dismissing entirely the idea of discrimination and unfair social expectation; but consider, also, the idea of choice.

    (Original post by munchkin18)
    i agree with db, as a female sociologist i am open minded enough to see the inequalities that both men and women face. sure, there is a wage gape. but it is not necessarily because of male dominance. the main reason is female concentration in the part time employment sector, and why are women concentrated there? many women CHOOSE this type of employment when they have had children, they want to work around their kids. i know i would choose that option, so therefore i would be choosing to be on a lower wage. as for the domestic work thing, i think a lot of guys are actually pretty good now and it's far more equal than some women make out. i feel sympathetic towards men in some cases, i think custody issues are overlooked to a ridiculous extent, and the same applies to divorce issues. i think us girls have got it pretty good to be honest!
    Very refreshing, reasonable an attitude. I wish I could find more women like you.

    (Original post by ninman)
    if there's one thing I can't stand, it's women who get positions of power. Have you ever noticed how women seem to love power tripping. All the women managers of companies or "bosses", seem to be taking one giant power trip. It seems they have the whole "let's get back at the men" attitude.
    Well, what I have found, in my experience of work, is that female bosses somehow seem harder on male employees, than on female employees: they would take every opportunity to exercise power over the male employees, talking to them in authoritative a way, while they'd talk more casually, to the female employees; more like they would, if talking to a friend. Although, admittedly, I haven't exactly got a wealth of experience to refer to, in this area.

    (Original post by bluedreamer)
    The past is the past. I don’t think it’s fair to make the men of today take responsibility for what happened a long time ago.
    Another refreshing post. I do feel that a fair few women do seem to have a bee in their bonnets, about the past. I, quite frankly, refuse to feel any guilt, as regards the oppression suffered by women at the hands of men, of the past; I wasn't even born at the time, for God's sake. It seems too many young women - not even born until the 1980s - act as though women are still expected to be in the kitchen, perhaps not realising that it's 2006, and that this school of thinking is now all but dead.

    (Original post by dddd)
    Also, far more work has been done into breast cancer than testicular cancer. Then theres the whole fathers rights issue.
    Yes: testicular cancer is as common as breast cancer, but receives, I've heard, just one-seventh of the funding. Mind you, the recovery rates are a little higher, for testicular cancer, but still, I don't believe to anywhere near the extent to justify this disparity in funding levels.

    (Original post by high_priestess_fnord)
    actually ive noticed more women being told off for making sexist comments on this forum than men.
    Are you sure? Probably only because I'm here.

    (Original post by high_priestess_fnord)
    tho i admit this is unusual in society in general and i have commented on it b4.
    At least you agree on that one....

    (Original post by high_priestess_fnord)
    The chatting up thing is sadly true. i think its mostly because the one with the highest sex drive usually does the chatting up XD.
    Yes: I have considered the fact that there is slight justification, in that men benefit more from, shall we say, pulling (i.e. because they, arguably, enjoy sex more; you'd certainly think it, the amount blokes go on about it). I believe there is unfair a social expectation placed on men to be the assertive ones, but, as I've said for things about women, this isn't all down to sexism; the element of choice is also represented.

    (Original post by high_priestess_fnord)
    is annoying tho that more women dont have the courage to approach men but i personaly have been labled a man eater for doing so, so im not suprised.
    Accept the label with pride. Why shouldn't a woman eat men? Any way, a good post; one of my favourites of yours.

    I get the feeling that this post is going to appear (and be) fairly lengthy....
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    The sad thing is most of the people here will read that and still say with a straight face that there is no need for feminism.
    I don't believe that such things do create a need for feminism. All that is required is a bit more common sense; common sense enough to realise that rape is an appalling act that should not be condoned. 99.9% of feminism is utterly unnecessary for this realisation.
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    (Original post by dyslexic_banana)


    Very refreshing, reasonable an attitude. I wish I could find more women like you.
    aww thank you. it's very true though. i hate the way every module i do centres around the way men oppress women
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    (Original post by dyslexic bannana)
    Accept the label with pride. Why shouldn't a woman eat men? Any way, a good post; one of my favourites of yours.
    women shouldnt eat men because they dont taste v nice tho i do enjoy a nice chinese every now and again XD

    and thanks your post was interesting too. not sure about the housework thing tho. i agree many women have higher standards than men and do more work of their own accourd but its not allways the case. there are alot of men who simply wont do nething unless they r *forced* into it, and then they seem to think that they are total saints and will later argue that they do help out because they did that tiny bit. im not saying all men do it but an awful lot of them do. unless u then have endless patience to train the guy to do housework properly then its easier to just do it yourself.

    *edit* not blaming the men. their mothers should have taught them in the first place.
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    (Original post by kupoartist)
    An eye for an eye...
    ... will make the whole world blind.
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    (Original post by Esquire)
    ... will make the whole world blind.
    and then the triffids will take over the planet while we r weak :eek:
 
 
 
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