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    (Original post by elisabeth_rb)
    The next time I hear *any* Witness say that will be the first, and I know literally hundreds all across the northern hemisphere!
    Well, I could have the religions mixed up, we get bapists from the church down the road knocking at our door aswell, I don't pay all that much attention to which ones say what to be honest. Sorry, no offence or anything.
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    So if you got sick would you just pray and accept "gods decision".. or would you do the smart and logical thing and go to the hospital
    I am sick, I have M.E. and I have been to the GPs, the hospital and the chronic fatigue service clinic. No Witness would behave in such an irrational and irresponsible way as to not seek proper health care. The fact is that we only refuse *one* form of treatment and people refuse all sorts of treatment all the time, so it's nothing unusual.
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Don't be stupid, she is a devout believer. How else is she going to get better? She is after all broad minded... :rolleyes:
    Yes, you're quite right, it was a stupid question....
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    (Original post by Infinity)
    Well, I could have the religions mixed up, we get bapists from the church down the road knocking at our door aswell, I don't pay all that much attention to which ones say what to be honest. Sorry, no offence or anything.
    #
    Do you? Wow!!!=)LOL!!!

    None taken, no worries. It does sound like a *well* churchy thing to say. Yeeech! If I heard anyone I was with saying that, I would stop them at the end of the drive and give them a good talking to!!
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    (Original post by Gnostic)
    You make, as usual, a very good point. For thousands of years man accepted the conditions of society and the world because he thought God had ordained it. We die when God ordains it, according to this view.

    Science was only possible when man began to understand that he can create, that there is no fixed order, that all is flux - that we can cure ourselves of illness, cheat death, and live great lives.
    It would be a good pint if it were relevant, but it's not a view I hold to at all. The last thing I believe is that God has planned every step of my life!
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    (Original post by elisabeth_rb)
    It would be a good pint if it were relevant, but it's not a view I hold to at all. The last thing I believe is that God has planned every step of my life!
    Ha! Good pint! Get that! Milk or beer, guys???
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Don't be stupid, she is a devout believer. How else is she going to get better? She is after all broad minded... :rolleyes:
    See I can't understand that at all, there is a family here in town (well they are in jail now) they lost 2 children to ear infections, because they wouldn't get treatment for them, when the 2nd child died they investigated and arrested the parents for neglect. How could anyone sit by and allow their child to die when preventitive measures are available? Which religion is that beleives in faith healing?
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    (Original post by elisabeth_rb)
    It would be a good pint if it were relevant, but it's not a view I hold to at all. The last thing I believe is that God has planned every step of my life!
    Why do you not accept blood transfusions though? because it is not your blood?? what about organ transplants?
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    (Original post by Infinity)
    See I can't understand that at all, there is a family here in town (well they are in jail now) they lost 2 children to ear infections, because they wouldn't get treatment for them, when the 2nd child died they investigated and arrested the parents for neglect. How could anyone sit by and allow their child to die when preventitive measures are available?
    Blooming good question! They're obviously where they deserve to be! If they're Witnesses, I'm heartily ASHAMED of them. For the record, we do NOT refuse all medical treatment, that is a total myth. We only refuse transfusions of blood and blood components. Given the fact that *all* surgery can be done without blood and that there are dozen of substances that can be transfused into the veins to increase the plasma volume, (which is what it's all about in the end), this isn't a remotely dangerous stand to take. In fact, doctors are reported to be the 2nd largest group of people refusing blood and, what with all the risks involved, there are even non-Witnesses claiming to be Witnesses so that they're not given blood.
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    (Original post by Infinity)
    See I can't understand that at all, there is a family here in town (well they are in jail now) they lost 2 children to ear infections, because they wouldn't get treatment for them, when the 2nd child died they investigated and arrested the parents for neglect. How could anyone sit by and allow their child to die when preventitive measures are available? Which religion is that beleives in faith healing?
    Ya in the Canada they made case law so that the government can step in if it is in the best interest of the child.. they did this because a jehovah witness didnt allow their child to get a blood transfusion when it would have saved their life
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    Why do you not accept blood transfusions though? because it is not your blood?? what about organ transplants?
    Well I can't say much there as my people don't beleive in giving or receiving the blood or organs of others either. Their beleif (as out there as it is) is that if the body is seperated from it's organs or blood, the spirit will remain after death and search for those missing pieces. Yeah I know it's far fetched.
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    Why do you not accept blood transfusions though? because it is not your blood?? what about organ transplants?
    It's simply a scriptural command to 'abstain from blood'. Blood represents the life of an animal and, when the human diet was enlarged to include meat, Noah and team were told that it had special value to God and was not to be messed with. I'll give you the references if you like but you can get much more detailed info at:

    www.watchtower.org and
    www.jw-media.org

    under FAQs and Medicine etc

    Organ transplants are not commented on in the scriptures and are left to the individual to decide.
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    (Original post by Infinity)
    Well I can't say much there as my people don't beleive in giving or receiving the blood or organs of others either. Their beleif (as out there as it is) is that if the body is seperated from it's organs or blood, the spirit will remain after death and search for those missing pieces. Yeah I know it's far fetched.
    ya well it would be ok if they didnt make the decision for their children.. i think religion should be banned for those under 21... until you can study it and see if you believe it
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    Ya in the Canada they made case law so that the government can step in if it is in the best interest of the child.. they did this because a jehovah witness didnt allow their child to get a blood transfusion when it would have saved their life
    This is often debatable. Sadly, if a case is considered this critical, it's not likely that blood will make the necessary difference. I wonder though, how many lives have been lost because medical staff have delayed, putting pressure on people instead of just using one of the plentiful alternatives available.
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    ya well it would be ok if they didnt make the decision for their children.. i think religion should be banned for those under 21... until you can study it and see if you believe it
    I wouldn't like to leave my children to chance! Anyway, you should know that Witness kids study for themselves and have to make their own decisions. There have been some touching cases where the minor child's opinion was sought and it was found that they not only agreed with their parents, but also could fully explain why!
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Says the person that believe in Christainity, and does not know of the science of the Koran.
    pardon me for not having devoted my life to studying absolutely everything!
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    ya well it would be ok if they didnt make the decision for their children.. i think religion should be banned for those under 21... until you can study it and see if you believe it
    Yeah, I agree there. I once posed this question to my uncle who holds firmly in the old beliefs...
    "what about a victim of a car crash or other freak accident who as a result lost an arm or leg, and that limb was for whatever reason unrecoverable, will his spirit then wander endlessy searching?"
    He gave me some stupid answer in story form, about how the river flows into the sea on the backs of many fish, or something along those lines.
    I personally would never refuse treatment if I had a child and that child needed a tranfusion or a transplant.
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    (Original post by grace)
    what i don't understand is why people seem to think that 'evidence' is the only way of knowing something?! Faith, in terms of epistemology, is a perfectly valid unit of understanding, just like logic, perception and trust. Personally i feel that it is ridiculous to dismiss science, but it is just as ridiculous to dismiss the supernatural. They CAN go together you know.
    Because evidence IS the only way of knowing something. Science is wholly and totally based on the provision of evidence. Moreover, everything you ever do in your entire life, without a single exception (apart from those who, sadly, make major life decisions and interpretations based on evidence-less faiths) is based on evidence and it is natural to require proof for anything before you will believe it. Do you trust the conman until it is proven he is a liar? Do you believe the rhetoric of politicians until you see them fail? Would you believe me if I told you that there is a china teapot orbiting the sun in perfect elliptical orbit until it could be proven that I was wrong? Of course not. You'd have to be mad. a) you'd get fleeced by the conman, b) you'd get screwed over by the government, and c) you'd be violating everything so far known about the solar system.

    Faith and evidence are entirely opposite things. In fact, from the dictionary, the one requires the lack of the other, by definition:

    faith n. ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)

    "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief."

    Ergo, faith requires the suspension of reason and logic. I believe it was Nietschze who said that (correct me if I'm wrong) and he was a thoroughly sensible man.

    Every drug you take, every piece of food you eat, everything you ever do in your life will be subject to rigorous, repetitive testing and analysis before you subject yourself or, more importantly, your children to it...

    ...with the obvious and startlingly worrying exception of religion, which is forced on children of all backgrounds, societies and cultures when they are young and therefore at their most impressionable (how is a child learning the ins and outs of life supposed to discriminate the good ("things marked poison will kill you") from the bad ("we believe in tridentine transubstantiate myths, not otherwise...when you're older, this will be a good reason for you to nailbomb a pub down the road here in Northern Ireland, killing, maiming and psychologically scarring countless innocent individuals")) with no respect for the necessary provision of evidence. Encouraging and teaching children ignorance (which is, by definition, exactly what this is), can *never* be a good thing.

    So my ultimate point is that unfortunately, no, they cannot go together. The one (science) immediately has infinitely more going for it than faith - the little thing called evidence. Subject faith to the same level of scrutiny and inspection, testing and logical processes and it will show itself to be nothing more than an shallow, hollow, empty, spin-doctored sham.
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    The only reason people believe in God is becuase other people do. If you didn't know about religion, and some guy came up to you and told you about god, you'd think they were out of their mind. It's only becuase so many people believe that it doesn't seem crazy. But the harsh truth is that many people really are out of their minds
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    You do have a point, Maddock - although I'd argue that it's not the *only* reason. It's a part of it, certainly, but I think the vastly overwhelming part of being "religious" is having been indoctrinated into a specific way of thought as an impressionable child.

    For example, all religious people should ask themselves the following question:

    Why do I believe in *this* set of beliefs (say, Christian beliefs) as opposed to any other set (say, Islam beliefs)? Is it because I surveyed all the world's faiths and analysed everything each had to offer, and made an informed decision based on my analysis?

    The answer is, to all intents and purposes, no. While I admit there are some people who "get" religions later in life or who "convert" from one religion to another, the numbers are so vanishingly small as to be statistically nonexistent. We're talking winning-the-lottery small.

    If you are religious, it is overwhelmingly statistically probable that your parents had the same religion, and brought you up in the same way as themselves, indocrinating their children without giving them free choice. In fact, there has been a study done of world religions and it turns out you can accurately trace family trees (or rather, sets of trees) through previous generations based on nothing but religious inclination, and come out with an extraordinarily accurate epidemiological (population) study based on the findings.

    Epidemiology, not evidence.

    To further develop your point, there are two things that should be said.

    1). Unfortunately these people do exist in society. They're called "preachers". Surprisingly, as you say, a significant proportion of people seem to be not in their right minds.

    2). A great example showed itself to me the other day. I am a medical student, and my clinical rotation led me to Bethlehem mental hospital in south London. There was a man in there who claimed that he received a message from aliens and that it was vitally important that he warn everyone on Earth to vow allegience to the aliens, for when the attack came (which could be any day) they would kill only those who hadn't. He'd even gone to the lengths to write an entire set of "scriptures", fabricated either from nothing or from grossly distorted news items about aliens from the past 20 years or so, which he claimed were original texts from the Alien homeworld.

    Most of you reading this thread will of course now be scoffing at this "insane" idea. But I ask those of you doing that who have a religious inclination to ask yourselves the following: What differentiates this man, who has, for his beliefs, been labelled as "delusional" and locked up in a mental hospital, from the man in the street who proclaims almost identical things, only using the word "God" instead of "aliens". The answer seems to be only that one is more socially acceptable than the other - namely, that tradition says it's ok to believe in god, but once you believe in aliens, you'd better be locked up because you're clearly a wack-job. Yet each has precisely the same amount of evidence as the other.

    This begs the final question: "what, then, is the difference between religion and delusion?". To which my answer would be "nothing".

    M
    --
 
 
 
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