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Cate
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Cheetah)
obviously!!! what else could i have been talking about???
It looked like you were answering the question 'Also what do vegans actually eat.....'
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Cheetah
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Cate)
It looked like you were answering the question 'Also what do vegans actually eat.....'
am confuzed....you win lol
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llama boy
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Cate)
A few people, OK, quite a few people, becoming vegetarians is not going to stop the meat industry destroying rainforests and using up resources.
You can only reasonably expect to have an influence in proportion to number of people within the society.

Apathy because you won't achieve a change much greater than your corresponding importance in society is wrongheaded on that basis.

(Original post by Cate)
Therefore nobody can say whether it is right or wrong to kill animals for food, because we have so much choice these days that it is just a matter of choice whether we eat other animals or not.
Er, no. This is incoherent.

It doesn't follow from the high level of choice that it is okay to eat animals.

In fact, the exact opposite follows. As you said, in a situation where you have to eat meat to survive, it is perhaps justified. In a situation where there is a clear choice, however, and where it is beneficial to the overall food needs of everyone on the planet for people *not* to eat meat, then it is by no means justified.

Your argument seems to be partly based on the idea that vegetarianism is a luxury. Again, the opposite is true, meat eating is the luxury, given how much grain it takes to produce the same amount of meat.
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Cate
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#24
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#24
(Original post by llama boy)
where it is beneficial to the overall food needs of everyone on the planet for people *not* to eat meat, then it is by no means justified.
It is not beneficial to the overall food needs of everyone on the planet to not eat meat, because a lot of people don't have the necessary variety available to be vegetarians. What would you do with all the bulls that cows kept for milk have? Just kill them all, because they are not 'beneficial'? That seems totally wrong. Or perhaps you are suggesting that everyone stops drinking milk too?
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llama boy
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Cate)
It is not beneficial to the overall food needs of everyone on the planet to not eat meat, because a lot of people don't have the necessary variety available to be vegetarians. What would you do with all the bulls that cows kept for milk have? Just kill them all, because they are not 'beneficial'? That seems totally wrong. Or perhaps you are suggesting that everyone stops drinking milk too?
A lot of people don't have the variety available to be vegetarians? Um, well, yes, this is currently true. There are also hundreds of millions of people without the "variety" to even survive.

It wouldn't be an immediate process, but moving away from meat consumption and towards vegetarian diets would result in much greater variety of vegetarian food (ie enough variety) - and for everyone on the planet, not just the rich. (and yes, I know a fair amount of the problem is not production, but nation states)

Your point about cows etc is a red herring, a different point entirely.
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Cate
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#26
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#26
(Original post by llama boy)
Your point about cows etc is a red herring, a different point entirely.
It totally wasn't. If you are going to stop people eating meat, what are you going to do with the left-over animals?
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Trousers
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Cate)
It totally wasn't. If you are going to stop people eating meat, what are you going to do with the left-over animals?
The "left-over animals" can be kept in things I like to call "dairy farms", where they are bred and milked. You can't justify killing a sentient being just because you don't know what else to do with it!!!
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Cate
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Trousers)
The "left-over animals" can be kept in things I like to call "dairy farms", where they are bred and milked.
What about the bulls?
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Trousers
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Cate)
What about the bulls?
The bulls can be used to go on dates with the lady cows and make more cows.
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viviki
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#30
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#30
Well I am vegetarian and I am a veggie for ethical reasons and partially environmental reasons.
Ethical because of the way some animals (especially in the case of cheaply priced meats from supermarkets etc) are kept and killed. I realise that if everyone was veggie then probably the only place you would see a cow or a sheep would be in the zoo, and I also realise that its not for everyone but its a PERSONAL choice, I'm not demanding that the rest of the world becomes veggie. If I knew that the animal was kept in good conditions and lived a decent life and was ethically killed then I would eat meat but I dont know this so I dont feel that it is right to eat meat. Yes animals do kill other animals in agressive ways, but we are a rich allegedly moral and ethical society and as such we could choose not to kill animals in barbaric manner and we do not do this and as such I wont eat meat. I dont eat things like marshmellows etc which have gelatine in either and try to buy products whose companies dont test on animals.
I only eat free range eggs because the same thing applies with regards to treatment as with cattle. I would pay double if I knew it would insure ethical treatment.

I am trying to move to soya milk because of agressive farming methods of dairy cattle but I am finding this more difficult hopefully I will manage it eventually.
I dont wear leather except for occasionally leather shoes but that is mainly because i have some problems with my feet and all i can get is leather, if I could wear non animal product shoes I would buy them in preference.

Environmental reasons are a consideration I also recycle at home we recyle everything at uni I recycle glass, papers, plastic and tins, I also only drive when really necessary and car share when I can.

Giving up meat was pretty easy it just required a couple of weeks of self discipline and then I didnt need it anymore I get tempted by bacon occasionally and thats it. I dont need to take vit supplements I can have a perfectly healthy diet from fruit, veg and soya products.
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Cate
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Trousers)
The bulls can be used to go on dates with the lady cows and make more cows.
Not all of them though. At the moment they are used for meat, if we stopped eating meat we would have a massive surplus of them.
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Trousers
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Cate)
Not all of them though. At the moment they are used for meat, if we stopped eating meat we would have a massive surplus of them.
Oh right. So it's better for the bulls if we just eat them. I understand.

Not trying to be aggressive, but I just think these arguments are stupid. If you want to eat meat because it tastes nice or because you just hate animals and think they deserve to die, just say so. There are no rational moral arguments for eating meat.
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viviki
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#33
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#33
Its not really necessary to drink milk we are one of the only (if not the only) creatures who carry on drinking milk after infancy.
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Cate
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Trousers)
There are no rational moral arguments for eating meat.
There are, some people just refuse to see them. There are no rational arguments for not eating meat.
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Ramaya
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#35
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#35
I am a vegetarian (been for 7 years) but I used to be a vegan for a short while (only about 1/2 year).
I am a vegetarian simply because I do not like the idea of eating meat. But i am not against anyone who does, its my choice and people should respect that. I find alot of meat is very fattening and that is also encouraging for me not to eat it.
I was a vegan because I went through the stage of thinking 'eughhh this was inside an animal at one point' but i'm over that now. However I am slightly lactose intolerant so I can't have cows milk (soya milk'll do).
So there we go thats my reasons
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Trousers
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Cate)
There are, some people just refuse to see them. There are no rational arguments for not eating meat.
I said rational moral arguments.

If it was morally right to eat animals there would be a lot fewer vegetarians! It's not easy to cut meat out of your diet. Many people consider it a great personal sacrifice and really miss eating meat, but they do it anyway because the thought of killing animals disgusts them.

Why should we eat meat? We don't need to. We have a choice, and cutting meat out of your diet is very healthy if you do it properly. It's not compulsory to eat meat, and the more people eat meat the more animals will be killed to satisfy demand. If people want to avoid being the direct cause of an animal's suffering, why shouldn't they?

I realise that everyone has the choice, including you. The last thing I want to do is preach to you, but I really think that your arguments make no sense!
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Cate
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Trousers)
I said rational moral arguments.

If it was morally right to eat animals there would be a lot fewer vegetarians! It's not easy to cut meat out of your diet. Many people consider it a great personal sacrifice and really miss eating meat, but they do it anyway because the thought of killing animals disgusts them.

Why should we eat meat? We don't need to. We have a choice, and cutting meat out of your diet is very healthy if you do it properly. It's not compulsory to eat meat, and the more people eat meat the more animals will be killed to satisfy demand. If people want to avoid being the direct cause of an animal's suffering, why shouldn't they?

I realise that everyone has the choice, including you. The last thing I want to do is preach to you, but I really think that your arguments make no sense!
We'll have to agree to disagree then, as your arguments don't make any more sense than mine.
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Trousers
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Cate)
We'll have to agree to disagree then, as your arguments don't make any more sense than mine.
Ok. I wasn't trying to convert you, but I think a lot of people would agree that it's immoral to kill animals. Most people just ignore that because it's an accepted norm, though, and if you choose to ignore it that's your decision.
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innitman_uk
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Cate)
Your point being...?

Animals eat other animals to stay alive, it is not matter of free will and/or control. Herbivore animals don't eat other animals because they have adapted that way to survive, and it is the same with carnivorous animals. Humans, whether they are superior to other animals or not, are omnivorous. If we were in the wild we would have to eat other animals to get all the things we need, it is only because of the wide variety of food available to us today that allows people to be vegetarians and not die. Therefore nobody can say whether it is right or wrong to kill animals for food, because we have so much choice these days that it is just a matter of choice whether we eat other animals or not.
And the way we kill animals for food is certainly no worse than how animals get killed in the wild.
Very good.

If humans have 'adapted that way', then surely by following a vegetarian diet, I should be dead by now. But this does not happen - I lower my chances of loads of diseases like heart disease, cancers etc.

Your argument hinges on evolution being 'a good thing', and evolution relies upon survival of the fittest and natural selection. But these are the very things you deny farm animals when you farm them. The only escape I can think of for a meat eater is to claim that humans are superior to animals. But this has problems I pointed out earlier.

I agree that it is only because of the society we live in (as opposed to the wild) that we have a choice to follow a vegetarian diet. It is also only because of the society we will in that we can treat short-sightedness, help disabled people to move around and stop some people from starving to death. If we were in the wild, we'd have to let these people suffer. But we aren't in the wild, and we should use the benefits of our society to minimise suffering. We can do this by giving humans who need them glasses, wheelchairs and food. If you believe animals also suffer, then by extension we should not kill animals (at least where unnecessary ).
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innitman_uk
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Cate)
It totally wasn't. If you are going to stop people eating meat, what are you going to do with the left-over animals?
You do know that the animals are primarily there because they are farmed for meat?
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