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    (Original post by innitman_uk)
    Very good.

    If humans have 'adapted that way', then surely by following a vegetarian diet, I should be dead by now. But this does not happen - I lower my chances of loads of diseases like heart disease, cancers etc.

    Your argument hinges on evolution being 'a good thing', and evolution relies upon survival of the fittest and natural selection. But these are the very things you deny farm animals when you farm them. The only escape I can think of for a meat eater is to claim that humans are superior to animals. But this has problems I pointed out earlier.

    I agree that it is only because of the society we live in (as opposed to the wild) that we have a choice to follow a vegetarian diet. It is also only because of the society we will in that we can treat short-sightedness, help disabled people to move around and stop some people from starving to death. If we were in the wild, we'd have to let these people suffer. But we aren't in the wild, and we should use the benefits of our society to minimise suffering. We can do this by giving humans who need them glasses, wheelchairs and food. If you believe animals also suffer, then by extension we should not kill animals (at least where unnecessary ).
    Hmmm... good points, but the 'I lower my chances of loads of diseases like heart disease, cancers etc.' is only true if you are overweight, which a lot of people, mainly americans, are because of all the steak they eat. A normal, healthy weight person would not need to avoid meat for these reasons.
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    (Original post by innitman_uk)
    You do know that the animals are primarily there because they are farmed for meat?
    Of course I know that. But what I'm saying is that you can't just go killing all these animals just because people aren't eating them anymore.
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    (Original post by innitman_uk)
    You do know that the animals are primarily there because they are farmed for meat?
    Exactly. The whole world isn't going to turn vegetarian over night, so if there is a surplus this will gradually sort itself out. The animals don't have to be slaughtered.

    And this isn't a moral argument anyway. There's no justification for slaughtering animals just because you don't know what else to do with them. There is a surplus of humans in the world too, and people are still outraged when one of them gets murdered.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    How is a pig different to a cabbage? Because it has a brain and oinks? We don't think twice about digging up a cabbage to eat. All vegetarians are doing is cutting out the middleman in their food chain.
    True. With 2 advantages:
    a) Much more efficient use of Earth's resources
    b) No suffering involved.

    (I don't believe that plants have feelings as they don't have a brain or nerves. But I admit you can't be sure. I am pretty sure however that animals feel pain.)
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    (Original post by Cate)
    Hmmm... good points, but the 'I lower my chances of loads of diseases like heart disease, cancers etc.' is only true if you are overweight, which a lot of people, mainly americans, are because of all the steak they eat. A normal, healthy weight person would not need to avoid meat for these reasons.
    True - it is possible to be a meat-eater and be healthy. I'm just saying it doesn't follow that "You're a vegetarian, so you're sacrificing your health", and giving facts which seem to support me.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    How is a pig different to a cabbage? Because it has a brain and oinks? We don't think twice about digging up a cabbage to eat. All vegetarians are doing is cutting out the middleman in their food chain.
    Well generally it is useful to eat something, so i choose to eat vegetables and not animals (which are likely to suffer in the process). If you say that all things (even plants) suffer then what will we eat, sand? Or will that suffer too.
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    I may become one in the future. I dislike the look of meat also how the animals are treated/killed to how they end up in the shops & on our plates.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    So is this all about pain? Most animals are slaughtered humanely, with pain supposedly minimised.
    Would you like to be electrocuted and have your throat slashed? "Humane" slaughtering is a very subjective thing, but I don't think that putting a captive bolt through a cow's head is something any civilised human should be doing.

    (Original post by piginapoke)
    To me, pain or not, you're still just killing a life form.
    Ian Huntley killed two life forms. Hitler indirectly killed thousands. If they were morally right to do this, I'm a banana.
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    ok ok i didnt want this thread to turn into a debate i just wanted to know what kind of chemicals etc they pump into animals etc so they are good quality meat...
    I heard they pump about 50 chemicals into chickens mainly oestrogen to make them think they are pregnant so they are more bulky thus more milk.......how sick is that! is this a scare story?
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    (Original post by Nafisa)
    ok ok i didnt want this thread to turn into a debate i just wanted to know what kind of chemicals etc they pump into animals etc so they are good quality meat...
    I heard they pump about 50 chemicals into chickens mainly oestrogen to make them think they are pregnant so they are more bulky thus more milk.......how sick is that! is this a scare story?
    Milk from chickens???
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    (Original post by Heather_1)
    I may become one in the future. I dislike the look of meat also how the animals are treated/killed to how they end up in the shops & on our plates.
    Well (as you might have gathered from my posts), I think you should give it a go. When I turned veggie, I did it gradually. Over the course of a month or so, I stopped eating meat altogether and barely realised I was doing it. I've now given up eating anything which contains gelatine or cochineal, although that doesn't bother me as much.

    One piece of advice: get yourself a nice big cookbook. Because you're limiting your choices, you might find yourself going back to eating meat because you're bored of veggie dishes, but you can make really interesting meals if you know how.
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    (Original post by Nafisa)
    ok ok i didnt want this thread to turn into a debate i just wanted to know what kind of chemicals etc they pump into animals etc so they are good quality meat...
    I heard they pump about 50 chemicals into chickens mainly oestrogen to make them think they are pregnant so they are more bulky thus more milk.......how sick is that! is this a scare story?
    Eh? I don't want chicken milk!
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    hehe *falls off her chair in laughter* I meant cows
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    I'm not being all animal rights by posting this before someone starts having a go at me Nafisa asked for information so i am replying to that.



    http://www.kfccruelty.com/animals.html

    It is legal in the U.S. to feed ruminants (e.g., elk, deer, cows, and sheep) to pigs, chickens, turkeys, and fish and then to feed those animals back to cows and sheep, who are natural herbivores.
    http://www.goveg.com/feat/madcowads.html

    "What’s wrong with drinking milk? Don’t dairy cows need to be milked?"
    In order for a cow to produce milk, she must have a calf. "Dairy cows" are impregnated every year in order to keep up a steady supply of milk. In the natural order of things, the cow’s calf would drink her milk (eliminating her need to milked by humans). But dairy cows’ babies are taken away within a day or two of birth so that humans can have the milk nature intended for their calves. Female dairy calves may be slaughtered immediately or raised to be future dairy cows. Male dairy calves are confined for 16 weeks in tiny veal crates too small for them even to turn around in.

    The current high demand for dairy products requires that cows be pushed beyond their natural limits, genetically engineered and fed growth hormones in order to produce huge quantities of milk. Even the few farmers who choose not to raise animals intensively must both eliminate the calf (who would otherwise drink the milk) and eventually send the mother off to slaughter after her milk production wanes.
    http://www.goveg.com/feat/faq.html

    "It’s okay to eat eggs because chickens lay them naturally. The eggs we buy in the supermarket are sterile and not unborn fetuses."
    This is true, but the real cruelty of egg production lies in the treatment of the "laying hens" themselves, who are perhaps the most abused of all factory-farmed animals. Each egg from today’s factory farms represents 22 hours of misery for a hen packed in a cage the size of a filing cabinet drawer with up to five other chickens. Cages are stacked many tiers high, and feces from cages above fall onto the chickens below. Hens become lame and develop osteoporosis from forced immobility and calcium lost to produce egg shells. Some birds’ feet grow around the wire cage floors; they starve to death because they are unable to reach the food trough. At just two years old, most hens are "spent" and they are sent to the slaughterhouse. Egg-laying hatcheries don’t have any use for male chicks; they are killed by suffocation, decapitation, crushing, or are ground up alive.

    http://www.goveg.com/active/cmp-ffa4.html

    Torture in a Crate
    A byproduct of the dairy industry, veal production takes the lives of about 1 million baby cows each year. Male calves are separated from their mothers within a day of birth and loaded onto transport trucks—headed either to auction to be bought and raised for veal or straight to the veal farm. There, they are confined, often tethered so that they can’t move at all, and isolated in dark crates. They are fed an anemia-inducing diet to make their muscles pale and weak for veal. If you are eating veal, you are consuming a sick baby animal. Safeway should require its suppliers to improve conditions for veal calves in ways similar to existing United Kingdom and European standards.



    There are so many more things that i could post that instead of sending you the whole lot in the longest post ever, heres the link check out the webpage.
    http://www.goveg.com/feat/a-favs-farm.html
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    (Original post by Nafisa)
    hehe *falls off her chair in laughter* I meant cows
    LOL!!!!
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    All you and 'morality' are doing is giving various life forms different levels of importance.
    I wasn't doing that at all. You said "To me, pain or not, you're still just killing a life form". You claimed that pigs and chickens are no different from cabbages because they are all life forms. Well, so are humans. If you're not willing to differentiate between cabbages and pigs, why are humans any different?

    And once you start on the "we are superior" business, you're getting into very dodgy territory. Hitler used this as an excuse to slaughter Jewish people. We are not superior, we just have the means by which to kill efficiently for our own benefit. So we do.
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    Oh **** viviki i didnt know half the stuff that went on im seriously considering being a vegetarian or even a vegan could you tell me what vegans arent allowed to eat: i know anything related to animals but could you tell me finer things like any e numbers or anything like that
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    I am willing to differentiate between humans and animals - this is my morality. I don't differentiate between plants and animals - this is also my morality. So, your morality is different to mine on this issue, as it surely is on a lot of other things too.
    Ok, it's obviously something we'll never agree on; it was the way you put it that confused the issue.


    (Original post by piginapoke)
    Don't put words into my mouth. I said we value human life highly.

    If we're not 'superior' to animals, do you fancy affording them the same rights as humans?
    Yes, actually. I don't mean we should have them wearing clothes and presenting TV shows, but we should at least afford animals the right to live and die with dignity and to have a basic standard of living which we humans can easily provide. I'm not trying to start another fight - I'm just answering your question.
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    They dont eat anything that is produced by animals, so thats no eggs, milk, cheese, cream etc. things like gelatine which are in sweets and jelly. Its really a matter of looking at the labels on products you can get things like vegan chocolate from Holland and Baratts which ok arent as tasty as normal chocolate but arent completely minging.
    I am veggie at the moment but working towards being vegan or at least semi vegan by phasing out milk etc from my diet.




    Its actually in some ways more healthy too

    the average vegan cholesterol level is about 133, while the average vegetarian cholesterol level is 161. And the average meat-eater’s cholesterol level is 210. Although the medical establishment may say “Well, you’ve done your best,” at 210, people are still dropping like flies.

    Its also better for the environment
    E, the respected environmental magazine, noted in 2002 that more than one-third of all fossil fuels produced in the United States are used to raise animals for food. This seems a conservative figure. If we have to grow massive amounts of grain and soy (with all the tilling, irrigation, crop dusters, and so on that that requires), truck all that grain and soy to factory-style farms and feedlots, feed it to the approximately 10 billion land animals who are raised for food in the U.S. each year, truck those animals to automated slaughter facilities, truck the dead animals to processing centers, run the processing and packaging machines, and then truck the packaged meat to grocery stores—well, there’s a lot of energy being used up at each one of those stages.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    In that case what about the rights of plants? What is it about animals which makes them better than plants?
    Animals think and feel pain. This doesn't make them "better" than plants as such, but it does mean that we shouldn't knowingly cause them pain or suffering if we don't have to. Pain is not good.
 
 
 
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