'getting A Good Training Contract.easy!'
I know I'm going to be corrected but here goes anyway...
I was looking at the top 100 law firms as recognised by The Lawyer. And in all of them the PEP's are well over 100 grand. Therefore I'm pretty sure that PEP's would be more than sufficient for a pretty lavish lifestyle up until about 200th place. These are obviously PEP's but they will obviously reflect what trainees, associates etc can expect to be paid too.
Now if you go to a top 20 university, get a 2:1 or above and not completely rest on your laurels in terms of experience, I'm pretty convinced that getting into at least ONE of these firms shouldn't be too much of a problem.
I mean, say for instance you applied to all 100 of them with the prerequisites I mentioned, you would be damn unlucky not to get an offer from 1 of them. Even if you applied to 50 I'd be shocked if you didn't get one offer.
Law is able to be studied at such a ridiculous amount of universities that a lot of these statistics about how hard it is to secure training contracts and pupillages will be adversely affected by the universities outside the top 20.
I'm of the opinion that if you satisfy the requirements I stated earlier, the only thing stopping you from securing a GOOD training contract/pupillage is how hungry you are to get it. Nothing else.
Feel free to disagree. I know you will! But it will be interesting to see what everyone has to say.
Stay cool.
Baadshah.
I was looking at the top 100 law firms as recognised by The Lawyer. And in all of them the PEP's are well over 100 grand. Therefore I'm pretty sure that PEP's would be more than sufficient for a pretty lavish lifestyle up until about 200th place. These are obviously PEP's but they will obviously reflect what trainees, associates etc can expect to be paid too.
Now if you go to a top 20 university, get a 2:1 or above and not completely rest on your laurels in terms of experience, I'm pretty convinced that getting into at least ONE of these firms shouldn't be too much of a problem.
I mean, say for instance you applied to all 100 of them with the prerequisites I mentioned, you would be damn unlucky not to get an offer from 1 of them. Even if you applied to 50 I'd be shocked if you didn't get one offer.
Law is able to be studied at such a ridiculous amount of universities that a lot of these statistics about how hard it is to secure training contracts and pupillages will be adversely affected by the universities outside the top 20.
I'm of the opinion that if you satisfy the requirements I stated earlier, the only thing stopping you from securing a GOOD training contract/pupillage is how hungry you are to get it. Nothing else.
Feel free to disagree. I know you will! But it will be interesting to see what everyone has to say.
Stay cool.
Baadshah.
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I see your point.
I go to Aberystwyth uni (which I doubt is top 20), I applied for about 15 vacation placements and have had interview offers from 6. I thought I did pretty well. Now, if it is true that firms like top 20 unis more, then surely someone applying from one of them (provided they have the grades, extra curriculas etc etc) would have had even more offers than me? Or is it just a matter of luck?
I go to Aberystwyth uni (which I doubt is top 20), I applied for about 15 vacation placements and have had interview offers from 6. I thought I did pretty well. Now, if it is true that firms like top 20 unis more, then surely someone applying from one of them (provided they have the grades, extra curriculas etc etc) would have had even more offers than me? Or is it just a matter of luck?
Determination can get you anything you want. Your reasoning is not without foundation. However, many applicants think along the same lines. That's why every firm that offers TCs receives anything up to 50 applictions per each place.
Many firms' HR departments actually recommend applying only to the firms you feel you can get a place with (eg if they practice the area of law you are interested in) and spend more time on preparing the applications rather on the number of the completed forms.
Many firms' HR departments actually recommend applying only to the firms you feel you can get a place with (eg if they practice the area of law you are interested in) and spend more time on preparing the applications rather on the number of the completed forms.
The thing I do want to highlight though is how all the statistics say how hard it is to get decent training contracts, pupillages etc. Not only do they not take in to account the drive and determination of respective applicants they include the whole country.
I mean, no disrespect to TVU but you can't really include that in a group of statistics shared by oxbridge etc. It acts as an anomaly and so does Oxbridge. So what you end up is somewhere in the middle, which is actually stupid because it doesn't tell you anything. Just a normal distribution. What these statistics need to do is to take the universities in blocks of say 20 in ranking order and then come up with the statistics. Then I'm sure it will be so much more informative and accurate.
That is basically the foundation of my arguement at how easy training contracts are to get if you can be bothered to jump through the hoops and not just cruise at uni. Obviously its harder the lower your uni ranks but not impossible at all. And I'm talking GOOD training contracts too. Not shocking ones at two bit firms.
I mean, no disrespect to TVU but you can't really include that in a group of statistics shared by oxbridge etc. It acts as an anomaly and so does Oxbridge. So what you end up is somewhere in the middle, which is actually stupid because it doesn't tell you anything. Just a normal distribution. What these statistics need to do is to take the universities in blocks of say 20 in ranking order and then come up with the statistics. Then I'm sure it will be so much more informative and accurate.
That is basically the foundation of my arguement at how easy training contracts are to get if you can be bothered to jump through the hoops and not just cruise at uni. Obviously its harder the lower your uni ranks but not impossible at all. And I'm talking GOOD training contracts too. Not shocking ones at two bit firms.
Well I can really only talk from my personal experience, but I wish it was as easy as you make it sound! I have a good academic record, extra-curriculars, relevant work experience etc etc but am finding it hard even to get interviews at the moment. I've had a careers adviser look at my forms and she says they're excellent, so I'm really not sure I'm doing anything wrong. But one of the firms I applied to last year said they had over 1200 applications for just 8 places, so I think determination can only get you so far!
Well I can really only talk from my personal experience, but I wish it was as easy as you make it sound! I have a good academic record, extra-curriculars, relevant work experience etc etc but am finding it hard even to get interviews at the moment. I've had a careers adviser look at my forms and she says they're excellent, so I'm really not sure I'm doing anything wrong. But one of the firms I applied to last year said they had over 1200 applications for just 8 places, so I think determination can only get you so far!
"Even if you applied to 50 I'd be shocked if you didn't get one offer".
Be prepared to be shocked.
When I was applying for TCs nearly 10 years ago, I sent off about 50 applications, got 7 or 8 interviews and only received one offer.
Things are even harder now as the quality and number of applicants rises.
I don't know the official statistics but the ballpark figures might work like this:
No. of law grads from top 20 unis - say - 2000 (assuming 100 at each institution)
Lets cut that in half to take into account those who don't do very well, those who don't want to enter the law and those that go to the bar - that leaves 1000 applicants.
Now add those non-law grads who are going thru the CPE route. Lets add another 500.
Now add those grads who are currently on LPC and are re-applying for TCs with the benefit of added experience and their degree under their belt. Lets add another 250.
OK - that makes roughly 1750 very good quality applicants for TCs.
How many TCs are there? That's difficult to judge. The top 100 firms covers a huge range - from Clifford Chance with a 100+ TCs to the much smaller firms with, say, 1 or 2 TC places. A rough guess? Maybe 1500 TCs available for all those firms.
There are more applicants than TCs. Plus, the figures above only look at the top 20 unis - clearly students from unis out of the top 20 get TCs at those firms.
It is NOT enough to assume that if you get a 2:1 from a top 20 uni and "want it enough" then you'll get a TC. You have a very good chance, but it is not guaranteed.
Apologies for the depressing tone of the message but I have a truly shocking morning ahead.
Be prepared to be shocked.
When I was applying for TCs nearly 10 years ago, I sent off about 50 applications, got 7 or 8 interviews and only received one offer.
Things are even harder now as the quality and number of applicants rises.
I don't know the official statistics but the ballpark figures might work like this:
No. of law grads from top 20 unis - say - 2000 (assuming 100 at each institution)
Lets cut that in half to take into account those who don't do very well, those who don't want to enter the law and those that go to the bar - that leaves 1000 applicants.
Now add those non-law grads who are going thru the CPE route. Lets add another 500.
Now add those grads who are currently on LPC and are re-applying for TCs with the benefit of added experience and their degree under their belt. Lets add another 250.
OK - that makes roughly 1750 very good quality applicants for TCs.
How many TCs are there? That's difficult to judge. The top 100 firms covers a huge range - from Clifford Chance with a 100+ TCs to the much smaller firms with, say, 1 or 2 TC places. A rough guess? Maybe 1500 TCs available for all those firms.
There are more applicants than TCs. Plus, the figures above only look at the top 20 unis - clearly students from unis out of the top 20 get TCs at those firms.
It is NOT enough to assume that if you get a 2:1 from a top 20 uni and "want it enough" then you'll get a TC. You have a very good chance, but it is not guaranteed.
Apologies for the depressing tone of the message but I have a truly shocking morning ahead.
Baadshah
thnaks for that guys. But my point was only that it isn't as hard as it's made out to be.
Actually, it is as hard as it's made out to be. I hate to sound abrupt, and I say the following with the greatest of respect ...
You are only an A-Level student. You don't have the experience of applying for training contracts to make such a statement. I expect in 2 years time when you're applying for them you won't be as convinced it is easy. You have good GCSE grades and good A-Level grades and yet 4 out of your 6 universities rejected you. That in itself should give you an indication of how difficult it is to become qualified.
Ethereal
Actually, it is as hard as it's made out to be. I hate to sound abrupt, and I say the following with the greatest of respect ...
You are only an A-Level student. You don't have the experience of applying for training contracts to make such a statement. I expect in 2 years time when you're applying for them you won't be as convinced it is easy. You have good GCSE grades and good A-Level grades and yet 4 out of your 6 universities rejected you. That in itself should give you an indication of how difficult it is to become qualified.
You are only an A-Level student. You don't have the experience of applying for training contracts to make such a statement. I expect in 2 years time when you're applying for them you won't be as convinced it is easy. You have good GCSE grades and good A-Level grades and yet 4 out of your 6 universities rejected you. That in itself should give you an indication of how difficult it is to become qualified.
my situation isn't exactly generic. There are other reasons why the universities rejected me. I won't have to contend with those problems when I am applying for training contracts though. I do concede it is hard but I still say its not as hard as its made out to be. Pretty awful things have happened to me that have affected my university applications this time around. But let me put it this way. I have already been to a top university for a year. This is isn't the first time I have applied. Enuff said?
Ethereal
It pains me to say it, but you're in for a rude awakening
probably. but people are misunderstanding me. I never said it was easy. I said it was EASIER than what people make out. Look, I've been up against awful odds in terms of numbers from since I was born.Everything I have gone for has always been v.selective from nursery to schools to sports teams to uni. But all these figures tell me is that its a good thing to go for not that that its really hard. Its all about jumping through hoops. Its amazing how many people just don't do that.
here here! If getting a training contract wasnt as difficult as people made out, people wouldnt stress the amount they do! I mean, here at birmingham, rated 11th when i last looked some years ago, its manic! We have pupilage fairs, we have dinners, we have parties, we have cv writing workshops, we have arsekissing workshops, its all go from the start of the second year! We're very lucky to have huge support from Eversheds and I think we get some back door entrys that way, but its by no means an easy feat! Uni life, is seriously a whole new ball game in this respect!
Not to mention the grades you need to get ON TOP OF this! These days a 2:1 just doesnt cut it! Firms are looking for 1st degrees now! So, in all, you have to have the most blinding cv, you have to be sleeping with most of the senior management of every law firm you apply to, and you need to be getting 1st class marks! its a 50hour day every day, trying to get onto one of these!
Not to mention the grades you need to get ON TOP OF this! These days a 2:1 just doesnt cut it! Firms are looking for 1st degrees now! So, in all, you have to have the most blinding cv, you have to be sleeping with most of the senior management of every law firm you apply to, and you need to be getting 1st class marks! its a 50hour day every day, trying to get onto one of these!
Lauren Hart
Not to mention the grades you need to get ON TOP OF this! These days a 2:1 just doesnt cut it! Firms are looking for 1st degrees now! So, in all, you have to have the most blinding cv, you have to be sleeping with most of the senior management of every law firm you apply to, and you need to be getting 1st class marks! its a 50hour day every day, trying to get onto one of these
btw, the firms will obviously choose people with 1sts etc but isn't that about 10 per year per uni. 2:1's are still fine aren't they. just get it with distinction or honours etc.
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