What is wrong with the Welsh......

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username1799249
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#41
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#41
(Original post by salad_fingers)

PURELY BECAUSE it is just about the most useless language out there. Who speaks Welsh? Just Welsh people. What do (just about) all Welsh people also speak? English. English also facilitates communication in maaany other countries.
Same could be said for anything. What is the point in learning any language? Everyone speaks English. And what is the point in learning history when historic lessons are always ignored? What is the point in science unless you are going to be a scientist and maths is pointless if don't plan to be a maths teacher.

Or, it all adds up to the knowledge of civilised society and makes you learn to think in different ways.
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Vinny C
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#42
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Oldest living language in Europe... respect!
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fallen_acorns
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#43
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Its not only wales that is having issues - globalization bennifits hugely from a single language. Its an eventual certainty. The world is moving in the dirrection that someday in the future - a hundred or more yeras from now - there will be one language only. It will be some adapted mutation of english.

Why would this not happen? Unless we reverse globalization, its the only logical path.

those who speak the universal language will prosper greater than those who don't, because they will be able to work internationally..
companies that embrase a universal language will see productivity rise because standardisation is efficient
Universities, media, all big business, will see that a universal language grows their market hugely.

its already happening. more and more kids are speaking english, younger and younger and better and better.

---

It will reach a tipping point in a few generations. At the moment in most countries you have a bulk of older generations who require the countries national language, you get:

60+ = no eglish
40-60 = a little english
25-40 = some english
15-25 = good enligsh
under 15 = english is amazing for their age

The generations need to filter through.. but in 50 years, you will have whole countries that are bilingual. Where everyone speaks english and their own language, even the elderly.

At that point you reach a tipping point...

globalization increases, and everyone in the country can already speak english.. the internet is in english, business is in english, media is in english, everyone can speak english... so why do you need your native language any more?

That's the stage wales is at, but its generations ahead of other countries, due to its proximiaty with the dominant language (english) - other countries will be in wales' position in a hundred years or so.

Its inevitable.
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TheFlint
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#44
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What anarrogant and ignorant replies of many. The Welsh langauge is the oldest language of the British isles and part of the history and culture. The Welsh have long been forced by the English to speak English, children were forbidden to speak Welshs in schools. Kids got punished if they didand even beaten. Same happened in Scotland with Scots Gaelic. That is the reason so few people speak these langauges still, not because they decided to just traded their langauge for English.To lose your langauge, means losing a part of your history, culture and identity. Welsh is 4000 years old at least, was spoken all over the UK before the Anglo Saxons came. Still some of the English be little the Welsh and Scots if they want to preserve their languages and culture.I applaud the Scots and Welsh for their efforts. And want to ask all those people who oppose them, what they would think if someone said you were not allowed to speak English in England anymore, but Polish or Arabic. I know the answer...Too many languages are lost, too many cultures vanish and because of it lots of places become the same. If I go to Amsterdam I see the shops, hear the same music, see the same brands as I see in Berlin, Cardiff, New York, Amsterdam or Tokio. What is the fun in that?
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L i b
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#45
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(Original post by TheFlint)
What anarrogant and ignorant replies of many. The Welsh langauge is the oldest language of the British isles and part of the history and culture. The Welsh have long been forced by the English to speak English, children were forbidden to speak Welshs in schools. Kids got punished if they didand even beaten. Same happened in Scotland with Scots Gaelic. That is the reason so few people speak these langauges still, not because they decided to just traded their langauge for English.
In terms of Scotland - and I suspect Wales too - that's utter rubbish. Scots Gaelic has been in decline for the best part of 900 years. By the 14th century, English was effectively the national language of Scotland. While in the late 19th and early 20th century there was some discouragement of Gaelic-speaking in some schools, this was not some sort of foreign influence: this was local school teachers, governed by local school boards and (prior to that) by local parish boards. Many of them saw it as backward and insular in modern society.

Indeed, since the 19th century, Scots Gaelic has seen official encouragement in an educational setting. Central government was not hostile to it - the worst charge that can be levelled is that they showed a limited indifference and that attempts to support it were modest.

To lose your langauge, means losing a part of your history, culture and identity. Welsh is 4000 years old at least, was spoken all over the UK before the Anglo Saxons came. Still some of the English be little the Welsh and Scots if they want to preserve their languages and culture.I applaud the Scots and Welsh for their efforts.
Again, in terms of Scots Gaelic, it itself supplanted the status of pre-existing languages - namely the Brythonic languages (previously, as you mention, spoken across Great Britain, particularly if you include Pictish within this family) and Anglic languages too: Gaelic itself tried to supplant the Northumbrian-speaking tradition of the Lothians at points in history.

There's a deeper point to all this: cultures are inherently changing. Language is one aspect of this - although, of course, there's very rarely a straight switch: there are Celtic words in modern English, and obviously many placenames across Great Britain.

We have a great deal of ways to preserve culture. For me, however, language is - most importantly - a tool of communication. Ultimately, I think those dusty old duffers on school boards in the west Highlands and the Welsh valleys had broadly the right idea: the use of the English language created great opportunities.

And want to ask all those people who oppose them, what they would think if someone said you were not allowed to speak English in England anymore
Well, it did happen. The Norman Conquest squeezed out Old English and replaced it, gradually, with the mish-mash we speak today.

If people are particularly attached to some cultural aspect of their lives, they will cling to it. I think the mistake often made by sentimentalists is to cling too tightly when, ultimately, the populus is changing around them. Once change has happened, people are rarely sitting around yearning for the old ways.
Last edited by L i b; 2 years ago
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Just my opinion
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#46
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I'm not Welsh but I am there a lot, kayaking, cycling, walking and sheep sha##ing.(joke)
It is a pain in the ass when reading leaflets and signs but when you consider that there are people alive today who were caned in school for talking their own language in the playground it's hardly surprising that they are so defensive over it.
To be honest I'm surprised that Maureen s suggestions aren't more widespread there.
She needs to be more careful though. She almost gave herself a thrombi.😤
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TheFlint
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#47
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(Original post by L i b)
In terms of Scotland - and I suspect Wales too - that's utter rubbish. Scots Gaelic has been in decline for the best part of 900 years. By the 14th century, English was effectively the national language of Scotland. While in the late 19th and early 20th century there was some discouragement of Gaelic-speaking in some schools, this was not some sort of foreign influence: this was local school teachers, governed by local school boards and (prior to that) by local parish boards. Many of them saw it as backward and insular in modern society.

Indeed, since the 19th century, Scots Gaelic has seen official encouragement in an educational setting. Central government was not hostile to it - the worst charge that can be levelled is that they showed a limited indifference and that attempts to support it were modest.



Again, in terms of Scots Gaelic, it itself supplanted the status of pre-existing languages - namely the Brythonic languages (previously, as you mention, spoken across Great Britain, particularly if you include Pictish within this family) and Anglic languages too: Gaelic itself tried to supplant the Northumbrian-speaking tradition of the Lothians at points in history.

There's a deeper point to all this: cultures are inherently changing. Language is one aspect of this - although, of course, there's very rarely a straight switch: there are Celtic words in modern English, and obviously many placenames across Great Britain.

We have a great deal of ways to preserve culture. For me, however, language is - most importantly - a tool of communication. Ultimately, I think those dusty old duffers on school boards in the west Highlands and the Welsh valleys had broadly the right idea: the use of the English language created great opportunities.



Well, it did happen. The Norman Conquest squeezed out Old English and replaced it, gradually, with the mish-mash we speak today.

If people are particularly attached to some cultural aspect of their lives, they will cling to it. I think the mistake often made by sentimentalists is to cling too tightly when, ultimately, the populus is changing around them. Once change has happened, people are rarely sitting around yearning for the old ways.

Thank you for your reply.

Of course languages come and go. And Gaelic has been in decline, but the last 200-300 years it was mainly because the people were forced to abondon their languages. The British (or the English one should say) forbade the people to speak their language and where severely punished if they did. And you forget the Highland clearances, not one word of it. Out of a 260.000 inhabitants of the Highlands, 150.000 were forced of their ancestral lands. These factors where the main factors it declines so rapidly. If the Highlanders would not have been forced to stop speaking Gaelic and not have been forced of their lands, a much larger portion of the Scots would still speak Gaelic.

'While in the late 19th and early 20th century there was some discouragement of Gaelic-speaking in some schools'

Some discouragements? Are you serious? Kids gotten severely beaten and even got the belt. Yes, that is how kids were treated for speaking their mother tongue. Even adults got badly treated and even forbade to wear their traditional clothes and play their 'own' music.

Same happened in Wales! And don't forget how many English folks moved to Wales to work in the mines, but refused to speak Welsh as well. The Welsh in turn were polite enough to start speaking English instead.

These are the reasons the languages disappeared so fast the last couple of hundred years, mainly by force! Once gone, it is incredibly hard to revive it. If the Welsh and Scots weren't kept from speaking their languages and the kids taught in school, than we would have seen a very different situation.

Language is not merely a way to communicate, it is so much more. I am Dutch and there are so many words and names which are part of who we are, which cannot be replaced by English or any other language. Same goes for other languages. So many stories, jokes, sayings lose their meaning when being translated. Language conveys not only information, but culture and so much more.

When you lose your language, you lose part of your heritage and culture. If people don't care, well that is of course up to them. But they should not forget that it is better to maintain, because when it is gone, it is gone and almost impossible to revive.

Why do you think about 3 million people from Irish decent are learning to speak Irish? Because they miss something and want to learn about their past. Of course in Ireland the same thing happened. People forced to abandon their language, culture, etc and even forced to emigrated due to famine. While enough food was grown in Ireland to feed them all, but it got shipped abroad by the rich and powerful.

Still these language can still survive in these times. You don't need 50 million people to speak a language.

https://www.tefl.net/elt/articles/te...guage-culture/
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L i b
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#48
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(Original post by TheFlint)
Thank you for your reply.

Of course languages come and go. And Gaelic has been in decline, but the last 200-300 years it was mainly because the people were forced to abondon their languages. The British (or the English one should say) forbade the people to speak their language and where severely punished if they did.
That simply never happened.

And you forget the Highland clearances, not one word of it. Out of a 260.000 inhabitants of the Highlands, 150.000 were forced of their ancestral lands. These factors where the main factors it declines so rapidly. If the Highlanders would not have been forced to stop speaking Gaelic and not have been forced of their lands, a much larger portion of the Scots would still speak Gaelic.
I think you're buying into a romantic myth of the time.

The population of the Highlands, around that 300,000 you mention, actually increased by about 40,000 between 1800 and 1850. During the middle of the 19th century, there were some departures, but it was largely due to the poor harvests rather than land clearances.

Outward migration was strongest in the areas nearest lowland population centres - people moved to find work, to take up opportunities in places like Glasgow and Greenock as the Industrial Revolution took on its full swing.

Sure, we have a few accounts of landlords engaging in sharp practices with tenants, but there is nothing to suggest some sort of systematic mass emigration took place. We can equally look to examples in lowland Scotland where the population urbanised, often more rapidly.

The Gaelic language didn't die out by this process either. Indeed, it brought a lively heritage to other parts of Scotland: a tenth of Gaelic speakers are still found today in Glasgow, there remains the shadows of the old Gaelic-speaking churches (you can still find the odd one in the cities that do occasional Gaelic services) - they also brought a musical tradition with them that in some ways endures.

There was a suspicion of Highlanders more generally following the Jacobite risings. Highland culture was already perceived as backward by Lowlanders, as it had been for some time.

Some discouragements? Are you serious? Kids gotten severely beaten and even got the belt.
Children got the belt for not tucking their shirts in. Again, this was at the behest of local school boards and teachers, who genuinely thought they were doing the best for the children in their charge.

Even adults got badly treated and even forbade to wear their traditional clothes and play their 'own' music.
Again, this simply didn't happen.

Once gone, it is incredibly hard to revive it. If the Welsh and Scots weren't kept from speaking their languages and the kids taught in school, than we would have seen a very different situation.
There have been UK Government grants for Gaelic speaking education since the 19th century, yet it made very little difference. Bilingualism tends to survive where there is a reason for it - in places where there are boundaries between two significant language areas, for example. What happens otherwise is that languages either disappear or become entwined.

Welsh and Scots Gaelic survived by isolation - and mainly in the more isolated parts of their former territories. As technology removes that isolation, a greater harmonisation of language is to be expected. I generally don't think that well-meaning intervention can significantly halt or reverse trends like that.

Language is not merely a way to communicate, it is so much more. I am Dutch and there are so many words and names which are part of who we are, which cannot be replaced by English or any other language. Same goes for other languages. So many stories, jokes, sayings lose their meaning when being translated. Language conveys not only information, but culture and so much more.
Which is the nature of culture. That which continues to be relevant endures, that which isn't does not. Useful expression remains. This is not simply a feature of language: look back only a few decades and many of the cultural cues in songs and jokes would be meaningless to young people today.

In Scotland, there's a bit of affection for 1950s-70s working class culture - particularly in Glasgow. But the idea of women meeting at the "steamie", the middens, shared drying greens, pan loaves, shipyards and so on have all disappeared - the residual understanding remains while there is living memory, but most will not survive that save as a curiosity. Not because of a lack of richness or fondness, but because it is no longer relevant to people.

When you lose your language, you lose part of your heritage and culture. If people don't care, well that is of course up to them. But they should not forget that it is better to maintain, because when it is gone, it is gone and almost impossible to revive.
Yet I can think of few examples where it is missed. Are the people of Strathclyde supposed to yearn for the days of being Brythonic Welsh speakers, a king at Dunbarton and close links with the Celtic peoples of the rest of western Britain? Are Mercians to take great pride in their Mercian heritage, despite it being all but meaningless now?
Last edited by L i b; 2 years ago
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username2703735
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#49
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Welsh is a fairly common language in some parts of Wales so it is understandable they teach it and should continue to do so, it is a part of their culture and heritage and would be a shame to lose it.

You could argue English is the most universally spoken language so if Wales are dropping the teaching of their own why doesn't France, Germany and Spain - it'll help them when they have to negotiate trade deals with us
Of course thats preposterous and so should the idea of Wales neglecting its native tongue.
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username3774332
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do they even speak english?
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Miss Maddie
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#51
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It's like 2 people on the Titanic in the gift shop arguing over the price of a bag as the boat's going down
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Tony Boarderer
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#52
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Yes they (the Scotch) are. They have Gaelic language roadsigns at the Boarder when Gaelic was never spoken at the Boarder - excluding perhaps Galloway. Prior to the arrival of the Angles in Scotland in the 5th century when Old English became the common language, Cumric i.e. Welsh was spoken in the Boarder and much of the Lowlands.
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Napp
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#53
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(Original post by Tony Boarderer)
Yes they (the Scotch) are. They have Gaelic language roadsigns at the Boarder when Gaelic was never spoken at the Boarder - excluding perhaps Galloway. Prior to the arrival of the Angles in Scotland in the 5th century when Old English became the common language, Cumric i.e. Welsh was spoken in the Boarder and much of the Lowlands.
1)decisively put an end to.
"a spokesman has scotched the rumours"
2.
wedge (someone or something) somewhere.
"he soon scotched himself against a wall"
nounARCHAIC
a wedge placed under a wheel or other rolling object to prevent it moving or slipping.

3) a type of whiskey


... not a person or people + this is a 10yr old thread.
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Quady
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#54
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(Original post by Tony Boarderer)
Yes they (the Scotch) are. They have Gaelic language roadsigns at the Boarder when Gaelic was never spoken at the Boarder - excluding perhaps Galloway. Prior to the arrival of the Angles in Scotland in the 5th century when Old English became the common language, Cumric i.e. Welsh was spoken in the Boarder and much of the Lowlands.
Are you still banging on about some radio daftness from nine years [email protected]?!?
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