The Student Room Group

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Reply 1
yes, i am. and so is a mate of mine who also uses TSR.

shall we discuss?

ill begin:

i think isabella uses relgion to repress her sexuality (i always go on about this, im hoping someone will agree soon)

Me and my friend also went to see it at the national theatre the other day. it was ok...
I :suith: loved:suith: the production at the National! I thought it was absolutely fantastic, I was completely gripped throughout. I was literally on the edge of my seat the whole time - not the most comfortable way to spend 2 and a half hours though! Have to admit I was a bit wary when I heard it was modern, with CCTV, TV screens and George Bush references, but it worked perfectly.

I loved Angelo above all (not literally obv!). He was just so tall and cowering and, as my English teacher put it, screwed up. Even better, we saw him afterwards on the way to the station. He didn't seem nearly so tall or uncomfortable in the flesh - was actually rather good-looking (though tragically married). Oh, and the Provost was fantastic too. His character's never stood out to me that much before.

My only, one, phwee gripe would be Isabella. She was clearly a good actress, but at times it did seem a little over the top and I felt that kinda spoilt some scenes, especially when she hears about Claudio's "death". I don't know, maybe you felt differently. Would love to hear what you made of it.

Seriously though, I did love it. I know it's a chliche but it really brought the play to life for me.
Reply 3
I am doing it and saw it at the national, and overall I thought it was very good. However, there were some aspects that I thought were questionable. The George Bush thing was too easy, too indulgent imo. The whole shock value thing I actually agreed with, it put the rest of the play on edge for me, which gave it a pretty gritty vibe which I enjoyed (i don't agree with the predominantly comic take the Globe did recently). But yeah, IM really up for discussing the play, i do find it a difficult one to make any clear judgement on.

i think isabella uses relgion to repress her sexuality (i always go on about this, im hoping someone will agree soon)

Well apart from the mispell of religion (lol)! I can agree to a point. There are some intresting things about her religion which might point us towards this judgement. In the Duke disguising himself as a friar, he puts the righteousness of religion in question. Also, in Isabella being a nun, and therefore representing the Catholic faith (correct me if this is wrong about the nuns, please!) we must bear in mind the suspicion a Protestant audience might harbour towards someone like that.

I would like to hear other peoples views on this and other aspects of the play. I especially am intrigued as to others views of the Duke.
Reply 4
The bullring
I :suith: loved:suith: the production at the National! I thought it was absolutely fantastic, I was completely gripped throughout. I was literally on the edge of my seat the whole time - not the most comfortable way to spend 2 and a half hours though! Have to admit I was a bit wary when I heard it was modern, with CCTV, TV screens and George Bush references, but it worked perfectly.

I loved Angelo above all (not literally obv!). He was just so tall and cowering and, as my English teacher put it, screwed up. Even better, we saw him afterwards on the way to the station. He didn't seem nearly so tall or uncomfortable in the flesh - was actually rather good-looking (though tragically married). Oh, and the Provost was fantastic too. His character's never stood out to me that much before.

My only, one, phwee gripe would be Isabella. She was clearly a good actress, but at times it did seem a little over the top and I felt that kinda spoilt some scenes, especially when she hears about Claudio's "death". I don't know, maybe you felt differently. Would love to hear what you made of it.

Seriously though, I did love it. I know it's a chliche but it really brought the play to life for me.


Amazing i 100% agree. Angelo was fantastic. Isabella over-acted the whole time. It did feel long though. I went on Monday night, full of american tourists.

And i loved the prison set-up, tv sets, Lucio and Pompey
Reply 5
Dann
I am doing it and saw it at the national, and overall I thought it was very good. However, there were some aspects that I thought were questionable. The George Bush thing was too easy, too indulgent imo. The whole shock value thing I actually agreed with, it put the rest of the play on edge for me, which gave it a pretty gritty vibe which I enjoyed (i don't agree with the predominantly comic take the Globe did recently). But yeah, IM really up for discussing the play, i do find it a difficult one to make any clear judgement on.

i think isabella uses relgion to repress her sexuality (i always go on about this, im hoping someone will agree soon)

Well apart from the mispell of religion (lol)! I can agree to a point. There are some intresting things about her religion which might point us towards this judgement. In the Duke disguising himself as a friar, he puts the righteousness of religion in question. Also, in Isabella being a nun, and therefore representing the Catholic faith (correct me if this is wrong about the nuns, please!) we must bear in mind the suspicion a Protestant audience might harbour towards someone like that.

I would like to hear other peoples views on this and other aspects of the play. I especially am intrigued as to others views of the Duke.



My teacher loves the duke, and we are always studying him. I find him to be a majorly hypocritical man, not the arch-villian i see Angelo to be. Every single problem in the play is due to the Duke, and he never recieves justice himself, at the end everyone gets the wrong punishment and his proposal to Isabella is creepy on paper, but at the National was terrifying
Reply 6
Yeah, I have to agree, I have always seen the Duke in a poor light. However, I think that the punishments at the end are quite good. He gives Lucio a punishment that is (at least in Lucio's eyes) a fate worse than death. And the marriage Between Angelo and Marriana seems befitting to an extent as Mariana does want it, and it will be a punishment for Angelo. I do feel that the Duke feels, in some kind of childish way, he is solving the original problem of Juliet and Claudio's unmarried relations by forcing others to get married. My problem with the play is that I frequently see the Duke as a manipulative, controlling charachter, but I can't fit the original debauchery of the city into this analysis.

Your right though, the National show of the Duke's proposal to Isabella was pure menace. Yikes!
Reply 7
It was so horrible, 'whats yours is MINE'
What night did you go on?

I think Lucio's punishment was wrong, he only slandered the Duke - we don't even know if it was a lie - and yet he is threatened with whipping, death and marriage to Kate. Yet Angelo gets to marry someone he originally was going to anyway
Reply 8
I also went to the national to see it, I thought it was fantastic, although there were a few things that they did which i didn't agree with, but on the whole it was good - useful for alternative interpretations!!! Re. thefins post, I agree, Isabella does use religion to repress her sexuality and this is evident from act 1 sc 3, her quick change in heart as well as short sentacnes with little variation in syntax highlight her dismissive nature, she tends to simplify Claudios situation, ("just let them marry"), far too simple, and (although you could please ignorance and nievity) I believe that she knows full well what Lucio is suggesting and is happy to go along with it. However, this becomes more evident (and obvious) later in the play, at the start I was largely making inferences and thinking about the social situation as well as the extremes that we - extreme devotion to the Saint Clare order, the other a totally liberal soceity with no restraint, thus leading to moral + social decay; could be Shakespeare suggesting either side is intolerable, what we need is compromise and solutions - but we arn't going to get that in Vienna!! Maybe.........
Reply 9
Furthermore, the ending of the play - i'd go far as to say we never actually have "measure for measure", it is still all unjust and unresolved, hence the problem play label
Reply 10
*plead, not please, soz!
RE: Lucio - I didn't mind him when I first read the play, but now find my dislike for him constantly growing. He is pretty moral free, the exact opposite to the rigidity and doggedness of Isabella and Angelo. He's prepared to say or do anything depending on who he's with. His only good point as a character is his loyalty to Claudio.Apart from that, he willingly prostitutes a nun, denies all knowledge of Pompey when he is sent to prison, slanders the Duke then denies it and accuese the other later and, worst of all in my book, gets a woman pregnant and quite proudly offers no support whatsoever. He's a good contrast with Claudio in this way, in that Claudio is more than willing to marry Juliet and care for his child.

What qualities of Lucio's do you find admirable?
Reply 12
Not admirable, but i loved his portrayal in the National.

However, making him highly comedic made him easier to like.
Reply 13
Yes, I can see why you find him easy to like, but I just see him as slightly sinister too. He is so hypocritical when he slanders the Duke (when he is in disguise) calling him a 'suacy friar' for example. In a way then his forced marriage is the natural opposite to his wantoness. This lets us see the Duke's punishment as actually quite valid, and links back to the idea of measure for measure.
Reply 14
The punishment is valid - BUT the Duke is only seeing it through because he was nasty about him.
Reply 15
The bullring


What qualities of Lucio's do you find admirable?



his delightful immorality (ooooh controversial!) i think its amusing, and is a great contrast the staunchness (is this a word!?!) of some of the more up-tight characters.

but this is perhaps more admiration of lucio as a plot function rather than his personality.
Reply 16
I saw it on Monday 13th March, and I agree with the above criticism. Isabella's portrayal was ridiculous at times, but the comic characters such as Pompey and Lucio fulfilled their roles perfectly. One clear thing I got from the play was how much freedom a director can have in influencing the audience (The Duke's proposal to Isabella, which I liked because of its dark tone). I disliked the way the modern aspects were put in. I am a fan of going entirely modern with modern lines, or full on traditional. However, the helicopter thing was cool!
Sami C
However, the helicopter thing was cool!


Hell yeah, I do that swooshing thing every time I enter a room now! Makes people think I'm important and travel everywhere by helicopter.


Or maybe not...
Reply 18
Why is it that we tend to see Isabella as relatively good and Angelo as relatively evil. In both cases it is their obsessive virtue that actually drives them away from their humanity. You could argue that, were it not for the Duke, Isabella would have been as much her brother's killer as Angelo would have been. Personally I cannot emphatise with her at all. Does anyone else see Isabella as an equally unlovable charachter?
Reply 19
Dann
Why is it that we tend to see Isabella as relatively good and Angelo as relatively evil. In both cases it is their obsessive virtue that actually drives them away from their humanity. You could argue that, were it not for the Duke, Isabella would have been as much her brother's killer as Angelo would have been. Personally I cannot emphatise with her at all. Does anyone else see Isabella as an equally unlovable charachter?


I agree, she is by no means the 'good' character in the play. Im feeling lazy so Im not going to support it further :biggrin: .