The Student Room Group

why are so many black people underachieving

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Reply 80
Original post by The Marshall
In my opinion, multiculturalism is sending us all to an Indian 'Hindus vs. Muslims' style hell. I support individualism, but multiculturalism is kind of the opposite of that. It makes a country's culture so bland that many cultures can operate under its banner.

Can I ask you a question, are you British or Indian or Muslim? I'd like to know on that.

I'm of mixed ethnicity, predominately West European and African/Afro-Carribean. I'm an atheist.

2nd. Hindus and Muslims in India have lived mostly well together.

Uh... perhaps in recent years, but they definitely don't have a history of peaceful cohesion, hence, you know, the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Original post by adark876
What you have said there is RETARDED!! as a black man and a Biologist i take great offence to what you have said. this is just plain ignorance!!! Mendelian Genetics tells us that "The Law of Independent Assortment, states that separate genes for separate traits are passed independently of one another from parents to offspring. That is, the biological selection of a particular gene in the gene pair for one trait to be passed to the offspring has nothing to do with the selection of the gene for any other trait. YOU CAN NOT INHERIT INTELLIGENCE. During the stages of mitosis things can change what do you expect there are millions upon millions of free radicals "Dancing" in the eukaryotic cell the hitting the "mother" cell. that's how cancers are formed.

Honestly what do they teach in schools these days???

also i'm dyslexic and have a degree in Biology and am studying for another degree.


They teach the basic stuff. Not the highly developed information that is reserved in Collages and Uni.

And how come many authors write about their characters gaining intelligance from their parents?
Original post by ChunkyFudgeLover101
I don't care if you're black. Just because you're black, doesn't mean your point is any more valid or less valid. What you said was wrong.
From your old secondary school, then please say, that the people in your secondary school thought this way. They do not represent the majority of black people.
Read the rest of my post.
Just because you share a skin colour doesn't mean you share the same outlook on life. Not all black people believe the same thing.
I hate the phrase "black peoples attitudes", forgoodness sake. Not all black people think the same, is there evidence to support this ideal?.
It's like saying, "white people attitudes", there are too many white, black, asian people to say that they share the same attitude. That suggests that they don't think for themselves, which clearly a lot of people do.


I am not saying my point is applicable to all Black people am I? It is my opinion.
When did I say that just because I am black my outlook is the same as all other black people? I didn't.
Original post by Theoneoranro
He's not being racist you moron. It's a fact and he stated it. It's an issue that needs solving but it won't ever happen because of idiots like you saying 'omggggggggg its sooo wrong, im going to go to a corner and cry like a little b*tch now'


What on earth are you talking about?
I didn't say this person was being a racist.
I was pointing out that black people do not share a unanimous view on education. Sharing a skin colour doesn't mean you share the same beliefs.
What is a fact? What are you talking about?
What wont ever happen? did you read my post?
In my opinion, we need to try and help those in poorer backgrounds that aren't achieving, to do well! Some black people are poor, some rich, some middle, but if we help everyone who's poor then, we'll be helping those black, white, asian everyone.
Original post by najinaji
I'm of mixed ethnicity, predominately West European and African/Afro-Carribean. I'm an atheist.

Ah, ok, thanks for that, I just want to know how you got hold of this information between Hindus and Muslims.



Uh... perhaps in recent years, but they definitely don't have a history of peaceful cohesion, hence, you know, the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh.


I know about that, Pakistan and Bangladesh is all Indian land. And with the wars with Pakistan, they're bound to lose anyway against India, no matter how powerful they become, they are a backward country with no sense. In recent yes, but lets just say its 50-50 at the moment.

And the relationship between India and Pakistan is such that it can lead to a world war.
Original post by najinaji
In my opinion, multiculturalism is sending us all to an Indian 'Hindus vs. Muslims' style hell. I support individualism, but multiculturalism is kind of the opposite of that. It makes a country's culture so bland that many cultures can operate under its banner.
My argument was no for or against multiculturalism. New Labour have encouraged it, and as such, that is the state of society at present. Whether or not it is a good idea is irrelevant.

Even so, that isn't racist. Why should we spend our time accommodating people when it's not necessary? We have imposed our obligation to be so accommodating on ourselves, and many other countries do not see the need to act like we do.

This seems to contradict the idea of assimilation that your criticism of multiculturalism appears to purport. For various reasons, it is necessary to accommodate the parents of ethnic minorities.
Hypothetically, a pair of Eastern European immigrants have come to the UK in search of work. They accept the fairly drudging lifestyle of unskilled manual labour and unsociable hours. As such, they struggle to take an active interest in their child's education because they are busy providing for the family, let alone have the opportunity to learn English in enough time to cope with the language the school use. The school send out various newsletters, knowing that the children whose parents speak English will have no problem understanding this (assuming they are literate), but the children whose parents are ethnic minorities will struggle with this.
I fail to see how this is NOT institutional racism; I should first clarify that institutional racism is not necessarily intentional, but occurs on the basis of subconscious preconceptions about ethnicity.
You cannot vindicate the school for failing to accommodate parental communication in other languages, AND blame ethnic minorities for their own underachievement. They are mutually exclusive options.

True, but it's one of many similar anecdotes by others. Ethnic minorities are well-known for being fairly racist.
Provisionally, I understand your point, but it needs substantiating. Moreover, this does not contradict my point. I assert that there is racism. I did not assert its origin. Racism from ethnic minorities to other ethnic minorities does not invalidate the damaging effects of racism.

So you're referring to a study that's nearly 30 years out of date...?

Also, you can't really draw any particular bias from this, because the study is not really based on reality. Also, 70% of the time isn't that much. That means that Mr Smith only got chosen over Mr Singh by an extra 20%.


I am referring to a study nearly 30 years out of date. I accept that it may be outdated. However, you seem to be challenging the suggestion that there is racism in the employment market. I am not aware of any other studies, but I am fairly confident that this has been substantiated by numerous people, otherwise there would be much less of a focus on equalising the racial makeup of the workplace.

I also fear your maths may be a bit off. If 70% of the employers selected Mr. Smith, then 30% of the employers selected Mr Singh. You said that Mr Smith got chosen over Mr Singh 20% of the time, but 70-30 is 40, therefore, Mr Smith was preferred by 40% more employers. That said, I'm rubbish at maths.
Original post by .Serenity.
I am not saying my point is applicable to all Black people am I? It is my opinion.
When did I say that just because I am black my outlook is the same as all other black people? I didn't.



I believe that Black people have a tendency to dismiss the importance of education, because the majority of black families do not have a successful role model to look up to. It is not a cultural norm, as there are high achieving black students, as rare as they may be.


Please look at what you said earlier on.
You kinda generalised.
You have a right to an opinion, i respect that.
I just don't think it's fair to say "Black people have a tendency to dismiss....",.
You didn't say your outlook was the same as everyone (all black peoples), but you did say some statements that made it look like all black people have the same outlook..
That's all I'm saying...
Original post by The Marshall
I agree, just look at the Blacks in Amercia! They have a black president, the black people are now quite a majority and they mostly have lots of things with them, Movies, everything, I mean Will Smith is black and yet he's so popular. So really, what most of the people said here is racist talk


Blacks make up 13% of American society and are the second largest minority group recently taken over by Mexicans/Latin Americas.............
Original post by kingkongjaffa
I think the answer lies in the stereotyping that is rife here, people are treated as an ethnicity first and an individual second unless you have a very strong character and can prove to people you are bright.

I go to a college which is in moss side Manchester, It is one of the best sixth form colleges in Manchester and has mostly Asian and black students, at my college at least it seems that black people under achieve because they aren't encouraged to pick academic subjects, the science departments would rather take Asian and white students and the sports/humanities departments don't really care.

in a college with a majority of Asian and black people the sciences and maths are dominated by Asian and white people, when surely there should be equal representation in all subjects?

Encouragement and support to take on harder subjects seems to be the problem, in my opinion


Loreto by any chance?
Original post by ChunkyFudgeLover101
Please look at what you said earlier on.
You kinda generalised.
You have a right to an opinion, i respect that.
I just don't think it's fair to say "Black people have a tendency to dismiss....",.
You didn't say your outlook was the same as everyone (all black peoples), but you did say some statements that made it look like all black people have the same outlook..
That's all I'm saying...


Fair enough, you misunderstood what I meant.
I would never generalise the view on a topic, which obviously has varying opinions.
Original post by hannah60000
Blacks make up 13% of American society and are the second largest minority group recently taken over by Mexicans/Latin Americas.............


They're a major intergal part of Amercia. Racist, they've been there since their ancestors were slaves! Blacks are everywhere in the United States and a racist like you intends to dispells that.
Original post by .Serenity.
Fair enough, you misunderstood what I meant.
I would never generalise the view on a topic, which obviously has varying opinions.


Okay, perhaps there was miscommunication issues. :smile:
Interesting discussion :smile:.
And of course.
Reply 92
This thread is already taking a racist turn...
Original post by JollyGreenAtheist
I repeat, my argument was not that white people are to blame for the underachievement of ethnic minorities. Repeating some of the key words that I used does not indicate that you have read my post thoroughly.

One argument for indian and chinese studies achieving well is that a larger portion of Chinese and Indian pupils are from families that originally immigrated to the UK to follow jobs at the higher spectrum of the market, such is the strong and developing economy of China and India. Comparatively, voids were filled following WW2 by immigrants from the commonwealth, including the Caribbean, to work at lower-end jobs. This reproduced social inequality and gave birth to ethnic material deprivation.

I listed all of the arguments, I did not say that they were all valid, nor did I establish my personal preference in argument. Personally, I would argue that underachievement is due to material deprivation, as is observable through the social class barriers too, and explains why white working class boys underachieve to the largest degree.

As much as you try to whip it up, there isn't a massive anti-white bias from anyone with half a brain. I will repeat again that many of the arguments I listed blame the system. If you believe the system to comprise exclusively of white people, you are a fool.




and who, in the eyes of minority groups, runs the system?

these ideas you present validate anti white racist attitudes; as the ideas leave the stuffy environment of academia, the convoluted and abstract nature of the ideas are always lost in translation.

the end result being the crude scapegoating of white people for other peoples problems. its a dangerous road to travel.
Reply 94
This is completely untrue. The fact is, that SOME members of the black community underachieve, but, that is the same within any ethnic group.
The sad fact is, that the black community have been subjected to racism; most notably in Apartheid, due to the insularity of the world, which sadly is still reflected today. Plus, it's similar to saying that why are all Asian and Indians doctors? Some cultures excel in certain fields whereas others do not.
But, the fact remains that the black population are no less intelligent in comparison to any other cultural or ethnic background. If anything, the black community are the most humbling and generous people that people in today's society know.
So, in my opinion, what you see is a microcosm; open your eyes, observe the macrocosm of society and you will see that every background is just as gifted as the other.
Reply 95
Original post by ednut
why is it that there very few black people in higher education in london, ive been to quite a few open days to universitys and was surprised to see a few or even no black people in these institutions even in the jobs market you wont see many black people working in shops either, while if you were to go to the likes of brixton and lougborough you'll see pockets of the black community where they would stick together.
im not a racist as i am a black man myself, also unemployed.

discuss.......


I would say ghetto culture which most black people are part of inhibits black people from achieving scholastically as it is stigmatized. This however applies to a lot of underclasses.
Some people say IQ there is very little research to suggest that and most of it is too unreliable.
Original post by The Marshall
So what if White people are responsible? If they are responsible than they are! Racist, you ever been to India or China? Don't assume they live in '' white culture.'' You have two things: Work hard or be poor. Simple as that.



what are you on about you racist?.....i am talking about indian and chinese people in britain. not in their own countries.

and no, white people are not responsible for ethnic minority underachievement in britain.
Reply 97
Original post by JollyGreenAtheist
My argument was no for or against multiculturalism. New Labour have encouraged it, and as such, that is the state of society at present. Whether or not it is a good idea is irrelevant.

This seems to contradict the idea of assimilation that your criticism of multiculturalism appears to purport. For various reasons, it is necessary to accommodate the parents of ethnic minorities.
Hypothetically, a pair of Eastern European immigrants have come to the UK in search of work. They accept the fairly drudging lifestyle of unskilled manual labour and unsociable hours. As such, they struggle to take an active interest in their child's education because they are busy providing for the family, let alone have the opportunity to learn English in enough time to cope with the language the school use. The school send out various newsletters, knowing that the children whose parents speak English will have no problem understanding this (assuming they are literate), but the children whose parents are ethnic minorities will struggle with this.
I fail to see how this is NOT institutional racism; I should first clarify that institutional racism is not necessarily intentional, but occurs on the basis of subconscious preconceptions about ethnicity.
You cannot vindicate the school for failing to accommodate parental communication in other languages, AND blame ethnic minorities for their own underachievement. They are mutually exclusive options.

You're arguing on the basis of what is rather than what could be. There is literally no need for us to accommodate non-English speaking, relatively unskilled Eastern Europeans. Also, not providing a costly and exhausting service is not racist, it's just based on how much money they have compared to the most important things that need doing.

Provisionally, I understand your point, but it needs substantiating. Moreover, this does not contradict my point. I assert that there is racism. I did not assert its origin. Racism from ethnic minorities to other ethnic minorities does not invalidate the damaging effects of racism.

Racism of individual ethnic minority groups =/= institutional racism

I am referring to a study nearly 30 years out of date. I accept that it may be outdated. However, you seem to be challenging the suggestion that there is racism in the employment market. I am not aware of any other studies, but I am fairly confident that this has been substantiated by numerous people, otherwise there would be much less of a focus on equalising the racial makeup of the workplace.

I'm saying that that study and the idea overall can be questioned.

I also fear your maths may be a bit off. If 70% of the employers selected Mr. Smith, then 30% of the employers selected Mr Singh. You said that Mr Smith got chosen over Mr Singh 20% of the time, but 70-30 is 40, therefore, Mr Smith was preferred by 40% more employers. That said, I'm rubbish at maths.

Equal employment would be 50% Mr Singh, 50% Mr Smith. However, Mr Smith got 70%, and Mr Singh 30%. Mr Smith had a 20% advantage.
As blacks (I'm black) we have our issues like every group, if it is not division by country it is by shade of skin we need to come together and sort out our issues as a group without input from other because we ourselves know the problems, we just need to get up and fix them yes the system in some ways are against us but in others are for us we need to just grasp opportunities...

I was recently asking the same question as the OP while looking at University prospectus and open days. Most black people I've grown up with African or Caribbean most parent want their children to do well, in fact most of our parents where educated in their respective countries and came here for further education or to work, but due to the time they came racial prejudiced was strong therefore they started of as working class (bottom of food chain) and this is the trend we see today, and now we are where (although this is not an excuse to remain where we are).

I agree with the statement that blacks underachieve but this is because many fail to reach their full potential no need to state why because the reason, at least some, have already been shared I believe that the new generation is working to achieve and will set a trend to help turn the imagine around and not forget to help the communities we come from Rome was not built in one day but hope; at least I plan to be in a position later on in my life to have positive impact we are more than athletes and entertainers..........

Overall I think most already know the answer to OP question but instead of us keep asking why lets be productive and ACTUALLY do something about it be the change to make the change.......That is all.

Just my 2 cent!
Reply 99
Original post by Nightstar-27
There probably isn't a sole reason. It should be noted that black men and black women have different educational levels, also there is a different between those who descend from the Caribbean and those from Africa. I should also state that working class white boys underachieve the most in education at the current moment. Now to look at black underachievement;

1) One of the reasons why there aren't as many black people in university is because they make a small part of the demographic of the UK. Thus even if they were equally represented there would still be few of them in comparison to other groups. Though at the current moment they are under-represented.

2) Black children are more likely to live in poorer areas, it may be that they are poor and have nothing to do with their skin colour. Also the culture in poorer areas tends not to place high value on education in some sub groups that black children could belong to.

3) There may still be some levels of institutional racism holding some black children back.

4) Black children are told the system is against them, so even in cases where no institutional racism is present they might still perceive they are being discriminated against and may not see a point of trying as they believe it makes no different.

5) At a young age some black children may be more concerned about their street rep than their education, thus pulling them down. It is possible that there are some black people who just don't care about going university.

6) Black people apparently have a lower IQ on average, though this is debatable but if true would partially explain why.

On a happier note, more black children are going off to higher educational and hopefully employment. More seem to have the motivation to do well in life regardless of the odds. Black girls and women in particular are doing better and better.


Brilliant answer kudos.

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