This discussion is now closed.
Check out other Related discussions
- Unit 19 - Internet of Things Assignment 1
- y12 gyg 𝜗𝜚 ࣪˖ ִ𐙚 study journal (goal: cambridge)
- Bp graduate 2026
- Picking your elective modules to match your goals: MSc in Human-Computer Interaction
- Cyber security dissertation
- The 'Official' RAF Application Guide
- Mclaren grad scheme 2026
- Cambridge NanoDTP 2025
- Advice on Computer Science courses at these Universities
- Anyone studying MSc Robotics at MMU?
- Queen Mary Vs University of Surrey
- A level Geography AQA Hazards Case Study
- How will I know when I've got enough experience for my Masters?
- So frustrated with English
- Cardiff University Dentistry interview selection process 2026
- Warwick accounting and finance with economics/finance/data science personal statement
- How is Birkbeck math graduate diploma?
- chemistry a level aqa year 12
- leadership opportunities
- Access to He colleges
Enough about IOT already....
11
Had a thought the other day. I haven't been visiting this place much recently, but I've just had a quick look through most of the threads. There're a lot of threads on OASC, which is fair enough; the pass rate there is probably in the region of 20-odd %, and that's just of those who did manage to make it through their filter interviews.
However, the only other thing people seem to focus on is IOT; a course with a traditional pass rate hovering around the 96-99% level. I was beginning to wonder if those of you approaching jobs in testing branches; controllers and aircrew especially; are putting a little bit too much focus on the "easy" bit?
IOT's not physically or mentally easy, but it certainly was exceptionally difficult to fail. Even a major failure at one stage means you're sent back a course rather than chopped; and during my 6 months there only one person (out of about 330 cadets there at the time!) was asked to leave as he couldn't make the grade. Everyone else who left was a volunteer, or a rare medical issue they didn't want to work through for months.
Perhaps rather than threads suggesting reading for IOT, training regimes for IOT fitness, and things to pack to take there, you should all spend a couple of days thinking about what comes after it. There's still enough of us here who can tell you all about professional training, and the chop rates through JATCC, EFT/BFT/AFT, FC trg etc are sobering.
All those base visits before OASC were undoubtedly useful to some of you. But any budding ATC types who haven't gone to Shawbury, or budding pilots who haven't tracked down their nearest flying training base and sorted out a visit or two now they've been selected, might want to consider it.
Just a thought!
However, the only other thing people seem to focus on is IOT; a course with a traditional pass rate hovering around the 96-99% level. I was beginning to wonder if those of you approaching jobs in testing branches; controllers and aircrew especially; are putting a little bit too much focus on the "easy" bit?
IOT's not physically or mentally easy, but it certainly was exceptionally difficult to fail. Even a major failure at one stage means you're sent back a course rather than chopped; and during my 6 months there only one person (out of about 330 cadets there at the time!) was asked to leave as he couldn't make the grade. Everyone else who left was a volunteer, or a rare medical issue they didn't want to work through for months.
Perhaps rather than threads suggesting reading for IOT, training regimes for IOT fitness, and things to pack to take there, you should all spend a couple of days thinking about what comes after it. There's still enough of us here who can tell you all about professional training, and the chop rates through JATCC, EFT/BFT/AFT, FC trg etc are sobering.
All those base visits before OASC were undoubtedly useful to some of you. But any budding ATC types who haven't gone to Shawbury, or budding pilots who haven't tracked down their nearest flying training base and sorted out a visit or two now they've been selected, might want to consider it.
Just a thought!
Scroll to see replies
Reply 1
You know wzz I'm glad you posted that although i do think that you naturally focus on the next step rather thn the biggest.
So what does EFT/BFT/AFT entail and what are the pass rates any tips etc?
So what does EFT/BFT/AFT entail and what are the pass rates any tips etc?
Reply 2
Wzz
OP
11
GR4pilot
So what does EFT/BFT/AFT entail and what are the pass rates any tips etc?
That would be a very big post indeed if I tried to answer that!
I'm hoping you had some idea of the training before you applied; so why don't you tell me what you know and I'll fill in the blanks?
Reply 3
Firstly, once an officer (specifically aircrew) is commissioned, at what point does he decide on the breed of Dog to be his companion for the duration of his commission? Or is this delayed until the award of the flying brevet when a suitable breed is selected to reflect the aircraft type that said officer will fly?
Secondly, failing any guidance, who has the best stock of black labradors in Lincoln?
Secondly, failing any guidance, who has the best stock of black labradors in Lincoln?
Reply 4
Thanks for that Wzz...it was become rather draining reading about IOT
Raptor...will you grow the tash as well?
Raptor...will you grow the tash as well?
Reply 5
Fair play, I 've picked up all I need toknow about what goes on in flying training from research and UAS but was wondering about the pass rates. Not trying to play the numbers game, it's just be interesting to know.
Reply 6
Though I think showing a detailed interest in IOT is slightly more reassuring that two full pages on the art of the press up!
Talk about mountains and molehills
Talk about mountains and molehills
Reply 7
11
threeportdrift
Though I think showing a detailed interest in IOT is slightly more reassuring that two full pages on the art of the press up!
Talk about mountains and molehills
Talk about mountains and molehills
The world rotates around press ups.
Reply 8
Wzz
Had a thought the other day. I haven't been visiting this place much recently, but I've just had a quick look through most of the threads. There're a lot of threads on OASC, which is fair enough; the pass rate there is probably in the region of 20-odd %, and that's just of those who did manage to make it through their filter interviews.
However, the only other thing people seem to focus on is IOT; a course with a traditional pass rate hovering around the 96-99% level. I was beginning to wonder if those of you approaching jobs in testing branches; controllers and aircrew especially; are putting a little bit too much focus on the "easy" bit?
IOT's not physically or mentally easy, but it certainly was exceptionally difficult to fail. Even a major failure at one stage means you're sent back a course rather than chopped; and during my 6 months there only one person (out of about 330 cadets there at the time!) was asked to leave as he couldn't make the grade. Everyone else who left was a volunteer, or a rare medical issue they didn't want to work through for months.
Perhaps rather than threads suggesting reading for IOT, training regimes for IOT fitness, and things to pack to take there, you should all spend a couple of days thinking about what comes after it. There's still enough of us here who can tell you all about professional training, and the chop rates through JATCC, EFT/BFT/AFT, FC trg etc are sobering.
All those base visits before OASC were undoubtedly useful to some of you. But any budding ATC types who haven't gone to Shawbury, or budding pilots who haven't tracked down their nearest flying training base and sorted out a visit or two now they've been selected, might want to consider it.
Just a thought!
However, the only other thing people seem to focus on is IOT; a course with a traditional pass rate hovering around the 96-99% level. I was beginning to wonder if those of you approaching jobs in testing branches; controllers and aircrew especially; are putting a little bit too much focus on the "easy" bit?
IOT's not physically or mentally easy, but it certainly was exceptionally difficult to fail. Even a major failure at one stage means you're sent back a course rather than chopped; and during my 6 months there only one person (out of about 330 cadets there at the time!) was asked to leave as he couldn't make the grade. Everyone else who left was a volunteer, or a rare medical issue they didn't want to work through for months.
Perhaps rather than threads suggesting reading for IOT, training regimes for IOT fitness, and things to pack to take there, you should all spend a couple of days thinking about what comes after it. There's still enough of us here who can tell you all about professional training, and the chop rates through JATCC, EFT/BFT/AFT, FC trg etc are sobering.
All those base visits before OASC were undoubtedly useful to some of you. But any budding ATC types who haven't gone to Shawbury, or budding pilots who haven't tracked down their nearest flying training base and sorted out a visit or two now they've been selected, might want to consider it.
Just a thought!
Wzz, I understand your point here, however, you will never get to experience phase 2 trg if you dont complete IOT. As you are aware IOT has changed quite markedly and so has the assessment criteria. Similarly the current thinking is that there will be a higher first time failure rate but the remediation and extra trg will/should enable the individual to pass second or third time. At the end of the day it costs some £300k to put one person through IOT, so the RAF Needs its money out of the trg system. The easy bit is not IOT. As you say it is quite demanding, and, if you are not prepared then you will find it much harder to pass.
I would say focus wholeheartedly on IOT. It is a hurdle you have to get over, without doing so, all the stn visits and prep visits to flying sqns will do you no good at all.
As for testing branches - they are all testing. Lets not make the assumption that if you are non aircrew/ATC/FC then you are a second class citizen. As a tale from the tape, on the last 2 AST courses at JSCSC the top RAF students have not been aircrew/ATC/FC, in fact one was Admin(Sec) and the other a supplier.
Just an opinion
Reply 9
Wzz
OP
11
TomD
Yes, but you go on to say that the new system expects a higher first time failure rate with remediation and extra training enabling the individual to pass second or third time.
I will be very surprised if the overall pass rate for IOT drops below the historical 96-99%. Most branch training involves a couple of warnings and then out; no second or third chance at all, unlike IOT. Fail your BFJT prog cx and they don't move you back 10 trips and let you try again; again unlike IOT.
TomD
Hmm; a drop in the ocean compared to aircrew training costs, but that's not the issue. Numbers like that are often so vague anyway. If the easiest bit of training isn't IOT, what is? On pass rates, I'd say unless you're going for a less testing branch (more of which later) you'll struggle to find a course with a pass rate higher than IOT.
TomD
But it's a hurdle that traditionally 99% of people willing to put up with a recoursing do get through eventually. What other training course in the RAF has such a high pass rate?
I'm firmly of the belief that extra prep at IOT will stand you in good stead; but 4 months into your first hold or half way through your first course, no-one will ask what percentage you got on your OS exam; nor how few days' restrictions you got; nor how many As you got on your final lead. You have to prepare a little for the hard bits. Why go through nine months of pain and hassle only to find you hate your job because you didn't look at the task beyond the pressups and studying and polishing of IOT? You've potentially got 20 years in the RAF, and IOT's only 9 months.
TomD
Well, true-ish. When the chop rate from admin officer training and supplier training equals the chop rate from FJ flying training, air nav training, or ATC training then I'll agree. Compared to being qualified as a pilot, on your first tour, and combat ready in a jet, admin officer training is very easy.
TomD
Nothing to do with how difficult it was for said stacker and scribbly to complete their professional training compared to a pilot! Some might say that scribblies and their ilk are much better placed for the demands of ACSC than a poor Harrier flt cdr pulled away to Shriv after a det to Khandahar. Not to mention the occasional attitude amongst some branches that ACSC, similar to IOT/JOCC/ISS/etc, is just a bit of a blip to get over if you want to be eligible for promotion.
Perhaps adminners need a good ICSC score to get promoted, but aircrew tend to do it through performance on the job; and unfortunately, even the best single-seat flt cdr in the world needs to attend AST before he's allowed to be a Wg Cdr; but he doesn't have to be best on his course.
I maintain that anyone at the stage that most people here are at would be silly to concentrate on IOT. Yes, it requires preparation. No, it is not the most important course you'll do over the next two years. Persistance, determination, and character will get you through IOT (at least it would get you through the old course). You need a lot more than that to get through professional training for something like ATC or pilot.
Reply 10
Wzz
OP
11
GR4pilot
Fair play, I 've picked up all I need toknow about what goes on in flying training from research and UAS but was wondering about the pass rates. Not trying to play the numbers game, it's just be interesting to know.
Tricky to say. Long time since I was at EFT, but I'd say you look at 20-25% FJ, 30-40% RW, 20-30% ME, and 10-15% failing.
Failure rates in RW trg I'd need to get from a mate. From experience, you can expect 1-3 choppees in a 10-12 man BFJT course, with about 5-8 FJ AFT slots available for those that pass. FJ AFT has a high pass rate because BFJT graduates considered unlikely to succeed are currently restreamed before they try. FJ TW's got a reputation for being rock hard, so the failure rate varies. When I was last there, there were only restreamees going through so they were doing well. Some courses lose up to 50%.
After that, not everyone passes their OCU, and not everyone even gets combat ready; and where you go at those stages varies alarmingly.
Reply 11
Wzz, hopefully I am right to assume you are either in flying training or have just finished, because your answers, whilst I see the sense in them are littered with aircrew dominated rhetoric, yet also naivety of the RAF when you move away from your professional training.
As for flying trg, the warning system for those who are not performing is quite lengthy. It isn't one failure and you are out. There are remedial packages and there are systems in place that allow those who are struggling in certain phases to re-group and try again. However, I do agree that Fg trg is brutal and very tough to pass. And so it should be.
When I mentioned testing branches, I was not referring to phase 2 trg for admin branches and the like. I agree the phase 2 for many ground branches is comparatively easy, however when in the branch the demands for that branch far exceed expectation. They are certainly not 'less testing', and most definately not second class. Whilst the preserve of the RAF is to maintain flying Ops, there is a shed load of background work that are key enablers to flying.
With regards to ACSC, this is where I note your naivety. If you haven't completed much of your CST then you won't know much about the demands of this course. It is designed for those who have good potential for Gp Capt and beyond, and no aircrew do not do it just to get promoted to Wg Cdr. It is tri-service, very competitive and very difficult. It is no way comparible to JOCC/ICSC and i most certainly not a blip on the radar.
Whilst the failure rate is very low, this is not a reflection on its ease, as the calibre of the student reflects this. The course is Ops related, and personnel are selected some 6-9 months before hand, so there is no feer of completing a Khandahar det on the Sunday and starting ACSC on the Monday.
I used the analogy of the Adminer and Stacker coming top on this course as a means of demonstrating that other ground branches are not second class. They have many top quality officers in them as demonstrated by coming top on ACSC.
Perhaps you need to take your aircrew focused cone from your head and recognise that there is a wider airforce out there.
As for flying trg, the warning system for those who are not performing is quite lengthy. It isn't one failure and you are out. There are remedial packages and there are systems in place that allow those who are struggling in certain phases to re-group and try again. However, I do agree that Fg trg is brutal and very tough to pass. And so it should be.
When I mentioned testing branches, I was not referring to phase 2 trg for admin branches and the like. I agree the phase 2 for many ground branches is comparatively easy, however when in the branch the demands for that branch far exceed expectation. They are certainly not 'less testing', and most definately not second class. Whilst the preserve of the RAF is to maintain flying Ops, there is a shed load of background work that are key enablers to flying.
With regards to ACSC, this is where I note your naivety. If you haven't completed much of your CST then you won't know much about the demands of this course. It is designed for those who have good potential for Gp Capt and beyond, and no aircrew do not do it just to get promoted to Wg Cdr. It is tri-service, very competitive and very difficult. It is no way comparible to JOCC/ICSC and i most certainly not a blip on the radar.
Whilst the failure rate is very low, this is not a reflection on its ease, as the calibre of the student reflects this. The course is Ops related, and personnel are selected some 6-9 months before hand, so there is no feer of completing a Khandahar det on the Sunday and starting ACSC on the Monday.
I used the analogy of the Adminer and Stacker coming top on this course as a means of demonstrating that other ground branches are not second class. They have many top quality officers in them as demonstrated by coming top on ACSC.
Perhaps you need to take your aircrew focused cone from your head and recognise that there is a wider airforce out there.
Reply 12
TomD
Have you ever met an aircrew mate who didn't think that aircrew were a superior breed of officer unless/until they had:
a) been in a ground branch before transferring to aircrew or
b) married a ground branch officer who continued to serve or
c) had done a staff tour out of specialisation?
Can't think that I ever have
PS I hope I qualify for exemption under a) and c). Most impressive JO by far, that I ever met was an Engineer
Have you ever met an aircrew mate who didn't think that aircrew were a superior breed of officer unless/until they had:
a) been in a ground branch before transferring to aircrew or
b) married a ground branch officer who continued to serve or
c) had done a staff tour out of specialisation?
Can't think that I ever have
PS I hope I qualify for exemption under a) and c). Most impressive JO by far, that I ever met was an Engineer
Reply 13
11
Aircrew should remember they aren't superior to a Guards officer. No one is.
Reply 14
As ex-aircrew, going out with an ex-guards officer, I can tell you that that debate is certainly not resolved!!!!
Reply 15
DPM
Aircrew should remember they aren't superior to a Guards officer. No one is.
What's good about being a Guards officer? You happen to be the god son of the Colonel so you get in, wow, real hard!! Where are the competitive selection procedures?, where is the challenge in pissing about in London all day in Bowler dress?
I'd say aircrew are far superior to Guards officers.
Reply 16
Wzz
OP
11
TomD
Wzz, hopefully I am right to assume you are either in flying training or have just finished, because your answers, whilst I see the sense in them are littered with aircrew dominated rhetoric, yet also naivety of the RAF when you move away from your professional training.
No, I'm beyond that stage thanks. There's nothing wrong with anything being aircrew dominated anyway; I'm still firmly of the belief that the RAF was and should still be about flying. After all, the role of the Royal Air Force is to fly and fight; the role of those that don't is to support those that do.
If you're going to get personal (branding me naieve indeed; what if I was a PA Sqn Ldr?
), I'll resort to the traditional "wind your neck in, blunty" course of attack. After all, with JPA now meaning I have to do your job in this mythical "spare time" around doing my own, you probably have plenty of time to think of wittier retorts TomD
As for flying trg, the warning system for those who are not performing is quite lengthy. It isn't one failure and you are out.
I'm a QFI; I know. I was comparing BFT/AFT to IOT; at IOT, after you fail your three leads at FLC, you had the option of a recoursing. In AFT, when you fluff your third FNT there's no option to allow you to drop from cse V100 to V103 and try again. Generally, a slight fail equals a straight refly. A major failing or a failure in a test results in a few spare trips before a retest. Fail twice for the same thing and that's often you out; fail for a second reason and you might get another flex package.
TomD
I agree the phase 2 for many ground branches is comparatively easy,
Good. That was my point; I was referring to initial professional training for people like air traffickers and pilots, and pointing out that it was harder (certainly based on chop rates) than the professional training for a scribbly.
TomD
however when in the branch the demands for that branch far exceed expectation. They are certainly not 'less testing', and most definately not second class.
Here's where you tackle my "aircrew rhetoric" with that special brand of "blunty chip-on-shoulder 'I'm just as important as you'" chat. I've seen how long my OC GD here takes for lunch, I don't think she works anywhere near as hard as me
I never claimed they were "second class" at all; you've pulled that out yourself. All I said was their training was easier.
TomD
Whilst the preserve of the RAF is to maintain flying Ops, there is a shed load of background work that are key enablers to flying.
Yes, absolutely; and no-one's stupid enough to claim that's not the case. However, there are plenty of self-important ground branch officers who do absolutely nothing to aid flying and plenty to get in the way of it.
TomD
With regards to ACSC, this is where I note your naivety. If you haven't completed much of your CST then you won't know much about the demands of this course. It is designed for those who have good potential for Gp Capt and beyond, and no aircrew do not do it just to get promoted to Wg Cdr. It is tri-service, very competitive and very difficult. It is no way comparible to JOCC/ICSC and i most certainly not a blip on the radar.
My Wg Cdr did it just to get promoted; or so he claims
I would say that most coal face aircrew don't consider it very important. I don't know any Flt Lts around my way who are looking anywhere past ISS.TomD
so there is no feer of completing a Khandahar det on the Sunday and starting ACSC on the Monday.
Ooof, a scribbly with a spelling error? Terrible!
TomD
I used the analogy of the Adminer and Stacker coming top on this course as a means of demonstrating that other ground branches are not second class. They have many top quality officers in them as demonstrated by coming top on ACSC.
At no stage did I say that officers from my "less testing" branches were second class at all! I would say that their training is easier, I would say that some jobs in the RAF aren't as intensive as others, and I'd certainly say that some people in your "second class" branches need to know that the objective is; as you've agreed; to generate flying. So no more bloody JPA roadshows, please!
TomD
Perhaps you need to take your aircrew focused cone from your head and recognise that there is a wider airforce out there.
Perhaps you need to wind your blunty neck in
No offence, but to take my comment that AOT is easier than BFT and AFT and read that I think all non-aircrew are second class is a bit indicative of a chip on a shoulder somewhere. I'm very very appreciative of all the guys who aid my flying; but I don't have too much time for those who don't help it.Reply 17
11
Raptor
What's good about being a Guards officer? You happen to be the god son of the Colonel so you get in, wow, real hard!! Where are the competitive selection procedures?, where is the challenge in pissing about in London all day in Bowler dress?
I'd say aircrew are far superior to Guards officers.
I'd say aircrew are far superior to Guards officers.
I think you've misunderstood what I've said. I didn't actually say they were superior. Just implied they thought they themselves were.
What's good about being a Guard's officer? They are good regiments. Also increases the chance of a well paid city job in London upon leaving the army.
I don't want to be a Guard's Officer. I'm thinking RWR probably.
Reply 18
11
Wzz
I'm still firmly of the belief that the RAF was and should still be about flying. After all, the role of the Royal Air Force is to fly and fight; the role of those that don't is to support those that do.
And of course, in the present international climate, the RAF is there mainly to support the Army.
(I like interrupting arguments)
Reply 19
Wzz
OP
11
No, the RAF is there to provide air power to further the UK's defence mission.
Related discussions
- Unit 19 - Internet of Things Assignment 1
- y12 gyg 𝜗𝜚 ࣪˖ ִ𐙚 study journal (goal: cambridge)
- Bp graduate 2026
- Picking your elective modules to match your goals: MSc in Human-Computer Interaction
- Cyber security dissertation
- The 'Official' RAF Application Guide
- Mclaren grad scheme 2026
- Cambridge NanoDTP 2025
- Advice on Computer Science courses at these Universities
- Anyone studying MSc Robotics at MMU?
- Queen Mary Vs University of Surrey
- A level Geography AQA Hazards Case Study
- How will I know when I've got enough experience for my Masters?
- So frustrated with English
- Cardiff University Dentistry interview selection process 2026
- Warwick accounting and finance with economics/finance/data science personal statement
- How is Birkbeck math graduate diploma?
- chemistry a level aqa year 12
- leadership opportunities
- Access to He colleges
Latest
Trending
Last reply 7 months ago
I want to become an Air Traffic Controller what should I do to prepare?
How The Student Room is moderated
To keep The Student Room safe for everyone, we moderate posts that are added to the site.
