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Feminism - Sexism? watch

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    Hi there,

    Lately I've been getting annoyed at a few friends of mine - they've all just come out of relationships and always seem to blame it on the guy they're dating rather than the relationship itself. I also hear from parents of other friends (especially the mothers) similar attitudes towards guys, that somehow they're as a gender flawed compared to women.

    Obviously I have no way of proving or refuting these claims but it provides interesting food for thought. Personally I'd like to think that it is an unsubstantiated one and that it is simply a backlash from our society's removal of sexism-against-women rather than anything else.

    Having said that, there are of course people out there with different views to me, and I think it's a good topic for discussion.

    I think if I had to sum this up with a question, it would be; "Can feminism ever go too far, and has it?" Personally I'm all up for equal rights, in all circumstances, hence why I find recent anti-men attitudes a bit distasteful.
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    It's not recent anti-men attitude, it's pretty much always been that way since women were allowed to vent and divorce/leave their husbands. But, men also do this. It's just humans being humans, blaming on others. It's a way to vent frustration. It has nothing to do with sex. I've seen plenty of guys call women dumb/uninteresting after they broke up with her.

    This has nothing to do with feminism though. Feminism can go to far but any political philosophy can go too far. Liberalism can go too far, Conservativism can go too far, Libertarianism can go too far, Socialism can go too far etc etc.
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    Ah interesting, you may have won me over. I'll leave this thread open as it may provide for interesting reading and debate.
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    What you also have to remember is when coming out of a relationship it's usually a lot easier to blame the other person. Therefore you would expect the girl in the heterosexual relationship to blame the guy because it's the easiest thing to do.
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    (Original post by Nick526)
    What you also have to remember is when coming out of a relationship it's usually a lot easier to blame the other person. Therefore you would expect the girl in the heterosexual relationship to blame the guy because it's the easiest thing to do.
    Hahah good point ;P Ok I will admit I feel a little stupid now :P Something interesting which I realised lately was the whole 'gentlemanly' thing (opening doors for women, not leaving them in the rain on their own etc etc.) is actually pretty sexist. On here, written down, it's really obvious, but I guess when you're brought up with the whole 'You must not hit women but it's ok the other way round' thing, it feels like the done thing.

    Hmm (musing pose)
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    there always have been anti-men women and there always have been anti-women men... the problem was that the men were more powerful and dare i say it anti-women attitude was much more prevalent.

    there still are sexist men and there still are sexist women. sexist men are a lot more dangerous in general than the average sexist woman... if your only complaint of sexism is "oh men are to blame for my relationship failing" then really, you don't have much to complain about compared to "my woman who i rape most nights looked at another man she is cheating on me stone her to death" or these honour killings.

    also when you end a relationship you are very upset and not that rational... most people don't want to blame themselves and admit they were part of the problem.
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    (Original post by Nick526)
    Well you see that piece of sexism is cancelled out by the fact that 'men can take being hit/punched/slapped but a woman could most definitely not' :L
    Yeah, sexism ergo sexism. Confusing society :P
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    (Original post by Dinnes)
    Hahah good point ;P Ok I will admit I feel a little stupid now :P Something interesting which I realised lately was the whole 'gentlemanly' thing (opening doors for women, not leaving them in the rain on their own etc etc.) is actually pretty sexist. On here, written down, it's really obvious, but I guess when you're brought up with the whole 'You must not hit women but it's ok the other way round' thing, it feels like the done thing.

    Hmm (musing pose)
    These are gender roles and they effect both genders. They're not sexist to one but both.

    (Original post by Nick526)
    Well you see that piece of sexism is cancelled out by the fact that 'men can take being hit/punched/slapped but a woman could most definitely not' :L
    Not sure if being purposefully sexist. Men hit weaker men. If serious, point is invalid.
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    The answer to this is very simple: Once a person's aims go beyond gender equality for both sexes, it's no longer feminism. If these women were actualy being bias and hermoginising men, then they are not 'sexist feminists' In fact, they're not feminists at all. So it's not the great topic it sounds like, a better question woud be:

    -How often do dopes mistake feminism for being anti-men, when in fact its sole aim is encourage equality, but obviously focusing on women, because they generally have had the worst deal.


    hummmmppppphhh.
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    Disclaimer: I'm a man!.

    I really hate any form of discrimination from sex, race, orientation, nationality and so on. If you are applying for a job then everyone should have an equal chance. So you'd think that I'd support feminists. But over the past few years I don't, because it isn't about equal rights for women - but just anti-men.

    In Wales for example. A few years ago there was a policy in some of the political parties to have 'all women short lists' to the Assembly.

    I take real issue with this, and I think those who want equal rights for women should do to. Anybody should be considered to go on the list based on skills. If a woman isn't good enough for the role, then so be it. I'm sure the majority of women would prefer not to be chosen because of their skills, rather than BE chosen purely because they were females?.

    So as somebody who believes in equal rights, feminists really annoy me. It has meant that for some roles, purely because of "positive discrimination" (never new any discrimination could be positive!) I am a 2nd rate citizen because I am a white, able bodied man.

    So yes, I think feminists like the suffragettes were great. It has now gone too far.

    ______________________________

    I'd just like to comment about what BELISSSIMA said. One thing you forget is that there are anti women women. This probably is a big problem for the feminists. You would think that when women get to a top job they would try and help others (like what happens to others that have discriminated against). But this isn't the case, and I don't know why. Take Thatcher - she had very little women in the cabinet. See what Katy Hopkins (off the Apprentice) says about employing women.

    It's a strange attitude that doesn't exist with men. It's almost as if they are saying "I've had to work hard to get through the glass ceiling and so should every other woman".... but how is this meant to help the cause?.
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y9_oklmHvU

    A fine example of sexist feminists.
    I think sometimes people end up repeating the stuff they learn in "gender studies" (and sometimes not very well as you can see here) without challenging it where it may be wrong.
    Also good to see that loud mouthed trio, (who turned out to be union reps), showing that its not only men who, when caught out blagging, try to bully and shout their way out of it.
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    (Original post by Terence_A.)
    The answer to this is very simple: Once a person's aims go beyond gender equality for both sexes, it's no longer feminism. If these women were actualy being bias and hermoginising men, then they are not 'sexist feminists' In fact, they're not feminists at all. So it's not the great topic it sounds like, a better question woud be:

    -How often do dopes mistake feminism for being anti-men, when in fact its sole aim is encourage equality, but obviously focusing on women, because they generally have had the worst deal.


    hummmmppppphhh.
    No true scotsman fallacy. Feminist can be sexist. Just like men's right advocates can be sexist.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    No true scotsman fallacy. Feminist can be sexist. Just like men's right advocates can be sexist.



    Yes, but I'm refering to the cause of feminism, which has only one definition, that being equal rights for women. I'm not saying a person who calls themselves a feminist can't therefore be sexist, I'm saying that an act is either working for or against the cause. Men's rights advocates can indeed be sexist, but then they can not claim to be seeking equal rights because they are favouring one side. What these women were saying was not promoting equality, so it is simply not feminist, which has a definate meaning. However, I think I was wrong when I said there will be little to debate lol.
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    Is this like Islamic terrorists cannot be Muslims because the Koran preaches peace?

    Paedophile Catholic priests cannot be Christians because the bible preaches kindness and love?

    Feminists cannot be sexist because that would make them sexist and just as bad as men?
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    (Original post by Dinnes)
    Hahah good point ;P Ok I will admit I feel a little stupid now :P Something interesting which I realised lately was the whole 'gentlemanly' thing (opening doors for women, not leaving them in the rain on their own etc etc.) is actually pretty sexist. On here, written down, it's really obvious, but I guess when you're brought up with the whole 'You must not hit women but it's ok the other way round' thing, it feels like the done thing.

    Hmm (musing pose)
    I was about to type a reply, and then realised that Annoying-Mouse said exactly what I was going to.
    So, I'll just add something on about the whole "opening doors for women" ect. I personally wouldn't ever expect a man to open a door for me because I'm a woman, I think that's ridiculous. But I personally open doors for anyone who is walking behind me at the time; any sex, race, age, etc. I just think it's good manners.
    So if a man does it for me, I assume they are just being polite and that it's nothing to do with my sex, because that's how I think people see it these days.

    Also with regards to hitting women. I personally don't think anyone should be hitting people unless absolutely necessary anyway (self defense), but I think it is particularly bad to hit someone who is considerably weaker than yourself and so less able to defend themselves/fight back. This, again, isn't about sex. Many women could be able to defend themselves against men. For me it's hitting someone a lot smaller, or a child, or a disabled person.
    But again... If they are attacking you, then it's self defense no matter what their sex or abilities.
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    (Original post by Terence_A.)
    Yes, but I'm refering to the cause of feminism, which has only one definition, that being equal rights for women. I'm not saying a person who calls themselves a feminist can't therefore be sexist, I'm saying that an act is either working for or against the cause. Men's rights advocates can indeed be sexist, but then they can not claim to be seeking equal rights because they are favouring one side. What these women were saying was not promoting equality, so it is simply not feminist, which has a definate meaning. However, I think I was wrong when I said there will be little to debate lol.
    Is it sexist to use sexism to reduce sexism?
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    (Original post by Terence_A.)
    The answer to this is very simple: Once a person's aims go beyond gender equality for both sexes, it's no longer feminism.
    The problem with this is that a huge portion of people who call themselves feminists attempt to make changes that go beyond simple equality. And it's obviously not right to say "Oh, these people aren't really feminists" because they make up such a large part of the feminist movement and are considered as such.
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    (Original post by Redolent)
    The problem with this is that a huge portion of people who call themselves feminists attempt to make changes that go beyond simple equality. And it's obviously not right to say "Oh, these people aren't really feminists" because they make up such a large part of the feminist movement and are considered as such.


    Yes I agree, but again, since feminism does have a singe definition - gender equalty - we are really talking about how people use the term 'feminist', which as I said, is constantly missused. However, if that is how people are using it and that is accepted, then I'm certain many feminists are indeed sexist.
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    It wouldn't surprise me if someone calls blokes sexist when they blame their ex-girlfriends and not the other way round. It's like the whole 'calm down dear' thing. Women can say it to men! So why can't men supposedly say it to women? That was utter nonsense.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Is it sexist to use sexism to reduce sexism?

    "I'm saying that an act is either working for or against the cause"
 
 
 
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