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The Spanish Football Thread
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Don't think the tie is over, Madrid are suffering from the loss of Modric, Khedira doesn't really offer much in this type of game, the combativeness he offers(which isn't going to be that great without match fitness) ain't really what's required to beat Atlético as they give you the ball, you really need to just have enough creativity to break the bus. Be it a long range shooter or by tight interplay that focuses on overloading areas of the pitch.
Ancelotti is quite naive for benching Ronaldo, it made no sense as they're facing Getafe next week, not Sevilla or Barcelona.
If I was Ancelotti I'd play Kroos, Isco, Rodriguez, Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema from the outset and use Carvajal+Marcelo from the start and overload the wings. For what it's worth Khedira will offer little at the Bernabeu if Atlético go hyperdefensive from the offset.
Atlético didn't even play that well personally and Madrid made it easy for them, Ramos done goofed and that was a stonewall pen Ramos had his hands on him and hauled him to the floor which you can't do, they nearly scored from Varane's poor ball retention(needs to improve his ball circulation before he starts for Madrid personally even though as a general defender he has it all, the CL final his average ability on the ball costed the corner that Godin scored from). Think the CMs and the wingers did their tracking back job well. Bale also is a bit too one dimensional, you know he's trying to find some space with his left foot to get a shot and if not he'll go down the line if there's space there. Reckon he needs Ronaldo in the team for him to perform at his best at Madrid so Bale gets more space. Ronaldo has a much more fluid style to his play and works much better in the second striker position as he's much better at creating space on the ball with both feet rather than just running on his favoured foot and taking a shot there.
Ancelotti is quite naive for benching Ronaldo, it made no sense as they're facing Getafe next week, not Sevilla or Barcelona.
If I was Ancelotti I'd play Kroos, Isco, Rodriguez, Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema from the outset and use Carvajal+Marcelo from the start and overload the wings. For what it's worth Khedira will offer little at the Bernabeu if Atlético go hyperdefensive from the offset.
Atlético didn't even play that well personally and Madrid made it easy for them, Ramos done goofed and that was a stonewall pen Ramos had his hands on him and hauled him to the floor which you can't do, they nearly scored from Varane's poor ball retention(needs to improve his ball circulation before he starts for Madrid personally even though as a general defender he has it all, the CL final his average ability on the ball costed the corner that Godin scored from). Think the CMs and the wingers did their tracking back job well. Bale also is a bit too one dimensional, you know he's trying to find some space with his left foot to get a shot and if not he'll go down the line if there's space there. Reckon he needs Ronaldo in the team for him to perform at his best at Madrid so Bale gets more space. Ronaldo has a much more fluid style to his play and works much better in the second striker position as he's much better at creating space on the ball with both feet rather than just running on his favoured foot and taking a shot there.
(edited 9 years ago)
Ronaldo played wonderfully tonight
Shame Torres didn't score.
2014: ............wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
2015: LL
2015: LL
Original post by Malevolent
That friendly doesn't really count haha. I'd just put it at two. And last time they lost two didn't they go on that run? 
There's no such thing as a friendly. It's just a cup final that doesn't count.
Original post by Mackay
Shame Torres didn't score.
How did he do? Assuming he provided endeavour, work rate but any opportunities?
If Messi played like this every game this season and hardly scored people would still claim he's 'lost it'
Original post by Zander01
If Messi played like this every game this season and hardly scored people would still claim he's 'lost it'
If you ask me Messi was overestimated in the last three years. He already was past his best.
Original post by Kallisto
If you ask me Messi was overestimated in the last three years. He already was past his best.
Can you explain your reasons why?
Original post by Zander01
Can you explain your reasons why?
Whenever it comes to the most important situations in very important matches, he is not able to show his aswesome skills. Not so often anymore at least. This was completely different at his best. Moreover I think that he is more dependent from the players around him. His play in Barcelona's team is better than in the Argentinian one in most of the time.
Original post by Aky786UK
How did he do? Assuming he provided endeavour, work rate but any opportunities?
Not really. Played an hour and was largely anonymous before being replaced by Koke.
Original post by Mackay
Not really. Played an hour and was largely anonymous before being replaced by Koke.
Not much he can do tbh, facing fast defenders with little support bar for Griezmann as the team were parking the bus.
Don't think the Atlético forwards actually did well attacking wise at all but then Saul and Raul Garcia were starting on the wings so what do you expect. Seen them play much better this season.
Original post by jam277
Well he's getting assists and he'll be a success when he gets fully used to the system but he's best suited to Liverpool's style of play from what I saw of him here. Wouldn't say lack of service from midfield is effecting the forwards that much either considering their goal tallies bar for Suarez have been marked improvements or at the same level of the previous season.
Whether or not he's best suited for Liverpool's style of play is one question, whether another style of play stifles him in any way is another, and I maintain that it doesn't. The two main points of criticism about him, i.e. bad finishing/sloppiness and sometimes erratic understanding with teammates, can be attributed to him being rusty after the ban/fading confidence when he kept missing and to him being new in a team respectively. So up until now, I see no indiciation that his play somehow suffers from the style of football Barcelona play. Might happen, but have there been any hints at it so far, other than the memory of Ibra, Alexis & co? The only way his play is stifled at Barcelona atm is through Lucho's brilliant line-ups and tactics, either getting the forwards right but stopping any service from midfield or using him irrationally as a static targetman, but that has nothing to do with the overall club-related *style*, plus all players are suffering from it.
But even despite having a changeable semi-scrub as coach making stupid line-ups, he's provided what he's been bought for, bar perhaps the scoring, i.e. improved the attacking play tactically and regarding output, more than e.g. Alexis or others managed, or even Neymar this season. There's nothing to worry about regarding him from my viewpoint and with a better coach than Enrique I think he can be as good as he was.
Original post by jam277
Just think that second you encounter a park bus team in the CL that hits on counter attack your lack of height is going to do you over again Suarez playing in front of defences as well as Messi and Neymar to an extent isn't going to work but I get that you require a lot of dynamism from the centre forward which is hard to get from a target man style no.9.
Problems against bus-parking /high pressing teams are caused by the lack of speed in transitioning & build-up play. Taking ages to get the ball from the back to the final third only allows teams to keep their shape intact or reorganise after attacking or losing the ball and makes it easier for them to put pressure on individual players. That is the root problem, not a lack of height. That's also why 2008 FCB or 2014 Real never seem to face parked busses in the Liga, because they move the ball a lot quicker. The main problem a lack of HEIGHT in particular brings (as opposed to a lack of physicality, or a lack of a less-involved target man the front line), is minimised aerial threat, but how often and sensefully do Barcelona use the air? Alves plays loads of high crosses into the box atm that a tall striker could make more use of than Messi & Co, but if anything this high cross obsession is detrimental to the play, simply because it's not the style of play that's suited to the rest of the team and squad, and set-up.
Buying a big fat no. 9 would mean trying to improve the little bits that are improvable about this setup, instead of actually playing the football that works and fits the team. The first step to be more successful against overly defensive teams is to improve those aspects I mentioned - speed of transitioning, pressing. That isn't possible without finding proper replacements in the CM department, as that is where the play is slowed down the most. Compared with these/a forward like LS/a proper RB who can contribute to attack better, a big fat 9 has quite low priority; it would be nice & useful as a plan B, but to take care about plan B when plan A is can be fixed is senseless.
Original post by IceJJFish(II)
It's interesting but I think football is now a throwback to what it was 10 years ago. You look at the teams then- Arsenal for an example with Vieira, Henry, Pires and you see pace and power, drive at teams and force openings. Obviously the Spanish/Barça dominance shifted the pendulum to smaller technical players with high emphasis on pressing and ball retention, but it seems to have gone back a little. You look at Bayern and they have Lewa, Robben, Schweinsteiger to name a few. Madrid have Bale, Ronaldo and Benzema, Chelsea have Matic and Costa and Atleti have Mandzukic and Griezmann though their philosophy is more built upon solidity and pressing/counter attack. I think Barça have failed to adjust to this, though they have tried by bringing it Matheiu, Rakitic and Suarez. Also interesting to note that the smaller technical players feature, as a general rule, just once or twice in top teams (Gotze, James etc.). Barça are essentially too weak in midfield and could do with a big striker, actually could've done with Costa rather than Suarez. They should trash tiki-taka and just play industrious football personally.
I don't think it's a throwback. The difference is that by now, the other top teams have caught up regarding technical ability in their team without sacrificing their physicality in the process - e.g. Bayern, Real, Germany. Before, Spain/FCB could emphasise their superior technique and make use of it by playing Aragonés tiki taka to make up for their physical inferiority. Nowadays the gap in technical excellence between Spain/FCB and other top teams isn't as big anymore, or even is nonexistent, so the physical inferiority becomes noticable again. Whether or not *small* technical players are used a lot anymore doesn't matter as the lack of height and physicality wasn't part of the plan, but the root of the problem for pre-2006/7/8 Spanish footy that caused Aragonés, Pep etc to implement tiki taka; not to emphasise the non-physical player type but to hide the flaw that lacking physicality meant back then, and to play a style that emphasises his strength. So teams not relying on "small" players when they aren't foreced is a no-brainer & doesn't really tell anything about whether the style of play still works or is en vogue or not.
About the "industrious football" bit, just bc other top teams now manage to combine physicality and technique the initial problem - i.e. a lack of height or physicality - doesn't simply go away, meaning the players for it aren't there. The large majority of players in the cantera, the Juvenil teams etc are in the Xavi or Busquets mould. To play a completely different style you'd either need to stop trusting in your homegrown talent and just buy the majority of players from elsewhere, and then you need to ask if it's really worth it, or you need to revamp the whole club and its approach - i.e., completely change la Masia and the teaching plan, not only in terms of football but also personality (e.g. how difficult characters like Deulofeu are sent to sow their wild oats at other clubs or are ignored).
Doubt such a drastic change is even necessary. Barcelona are still only 1-4 points behind a Real side that people call the best in more than a decade despite being that disorganised etc. For now, actually using the approach that worked (e.g. Ajax game) on a consistent basis and try to build on it would actually be enough, it doesn't need any major changes. Play the lines closer together, speed up the play, stop stretching the midfield so much; that makes the play more fluid and actually helps the play to PROFIT from the added physicality in e.g. Rakitic, whose physicality is just wasted when being shunted to the flank to babysit Alves. The root problem is not playing style per se anyway but the failure to get suitable replacements for declining players, who more and more slow down the play and fail to contribute to pressing, which are the two main problems in terms of play alone. Replacing Xavi etc would have been essential not only from a tactical and performance perspective but also to restore some hunger and determination in the squad. That hasn't been done and is now taking its toll.
(edited 9 years ago)
True.
You'd say that Barca's style of play currently allows for parked buses.
Suarez did have a similar problem with his finishing when he first joined Liverpool, he probably was affected by the racism case and his confidence was low which affected his finishing. He performed better at pool when the team actually played football that suited majority of the team so I guess when Barcelona change the speed of transitioning and their pressing Suarez will look better.
I think plan A can really be solved by replacing Xavi fully, which the club are starting to do even if the play on the pitch hasn't showed it as of yet. I'm more a believer of finding more than one way to play e.g. Bayern Munich. I guess to be the best team you don't need to be a exceptional all rounder though as Barcelona and Real Madrid have proven over the past few years.
Also do you think that Barca need a big name manager(e.g. an Ancelotti) who knows the trade and has a decent history of bringing up young players rather than rookie managers who used to play for the club or has a connection to various players in search of the next Guardiola? Feels like the board are just hiring friends than people who can do a job. I guess there's no obvious top manager available though and I still think Barcelona will win the league. Even if they lost to Atlético they'll be 7 points behind, can't see Real winning at the Calderon or at nou camp so that 7 point lead could easily be reduced to 1 point.
Don't think Barca will win this weekend though. Atlético rested key players and you'll probably see Turan, Koke, Mandzukic, Tiago and others playing this weekend and the style of play at Barca is meat and drink for Atlético.
You'd say that Barca's style of play currently allows for parked buses.
Suarez did have a similar problem with his finishing when he first joined Liverpool, he probably was affected by the racism case and his confidence was low which affected his finishing. He performed better at pool when the team actually played football that suited majority of the team so I guess when Barcelona change the speed of transitioning and their pressing Suarez will look better.
I think plan A can really be solved by replacing Xavi fully, which the club are starting to do even if the play on the pitch hasn't showed it as of yet. I'm more a believer of finding more than one way to play e.g. Bayern Munich. I guess to be the best team you don't need to be a exceptional all rounder though as Barcelona and Real Madrid have proven over the past few years.
Also do you think that Barca need a big name manager(e.g. an Ancelotti) who knows the trade and has a decent history of bringing up young players rather than rookie managers who used to play for the club or has a connection to various players in search of the next Guardiola? Feels like the board are just hiring friends than people who can do a job. I guess there's no obvious top manager available though and I still think Barcelona will win the league. Even if they lost to Atlético they'll be 7 points behind, can't see Real winning at the Calderon or at nou camp so that 7 point lead could easily be reduced to 1 point.
Don't think Barca will win this weekend though. Atlético rested key players and you'll probably see Turan, Koke, Mandzukic, Tiago and others playing this weekend and the style of play at Barca is meat and drink for Atlético.
(edited 9 years ago)
Atlético do seem a bit dodgy early on in games when they haven't settled though but as soon as they get a little comfortable and you haven't scored it gets impossible to break them down and you're somewhere between the end of a thrashing or 0-0 draw.
Frustrating team to play against.
Frustrating team to play against.
Brilliant performance by Barca yesterday. Hopefully they build on it. I really want then to change the formation to 3412 though so Messi can play centrally, which is closer to Neymar. 3412 gives flexibility because Mascherano can play cb against weak
teams but in fact play more like a cdm and then it will be two at the back. It allows for transitions.
Against weak team I would play:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
----Pique/Bartra-----Masc-----Matheiu-----
Pedro--------Rakitic------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
Against stronger teams:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
--------Bartra-----Pique-----Matheiu--------
Pedro------Busquets------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
That would be neigh on perfect for me
Posted from TSR Mobile
teams but in fact play more like a cdm and then it will be two at the back. It allows for transitions.
Against weak team I would play:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
----Pique/Bartra-----Masc-----Matheiu-----
Pedro--------Rakitic------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
Against stronger teams:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
--------Bartra-----Pique-----Matheiu--------
Pedro------Busquets------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
That would be neigh on perfect for me
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by jam277
Not much he can do tbh, facing fast defenders with little support bar for Griezmann as the team were parking the bus.
Don't think the Atlético forwards actually did well attacking wise at all but then Saul and Raul Garcia were starting on the wings so what do you expect. Seen them play much better this season.
Don't think the Atlético forwards actually did well attacking wise at all but then Saul and Raul Garcia were starting on the wings so what do you expect. Seen them play much better this season.
Got his first win in the Madrid derby in nine attempts. Fair play to him.
I don't think Messi will leave Barca but I'm wondering...
Why hasn't he came out and explicitly said he's not going anywhere yet? Is he unsure right now?
Or has he already done that recently and I simply missed it?
Why hasn't he came out and explicitly said he's not going anywhere yet? Is he unsure right now?
Or has he already done that recently and I simply missed it?
Original post by Undisclosed 15
Brilliant performance by Barca yesterday. Hopefully they build on it. I really want then to change the formation to 3412 though so Messi can play centrally, which is closer to Neymar. 3412 gives flexibility because Mascherano can play cb against weak
teams but in fact play more like a cdm and then it will be two at the back. It allows for transitions.
Against weak team I would play:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
----Pique/Bartra-----Masc-----Matheiu-----
Pedro--------Rakitic------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
Against stronger teams:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
--------Bartra-----Pique-----Matheiu--------
Pedro------Busquets------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
That would be neigh on perfect for me
Posted from TSR Mobile
teams but in fact play more like a cdm and then it will be two at the back. It allows for transitions.
Against weak team I would play:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
----Pique/Bartra-----Masc-----Matheiu-----
Pedro--------Rakitic------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
Against stronger teams:
--------------------------Bravo-------------------
--------Bartra-----Pique-----Matheiu--------
Pedro------Busquets------Iniesta------Alba
------------------------Messi--------------------
---------------Suarez---------Neymar---------
That would be neigh on perfect for me
Posted from TSR Mobile
Pedro having to play at RWB trying to cover Bartra will be a disaster in big games. It's going to end up in Busquetts being dragged out to the right hand side to cover boths poor positioning, thus leaving Iniesta and Messi to deal with counters which just isn't going to work.
If it was Sanchez there then I would have said it would be a good option.
Original post by Zander01
I don't think Messi will leave Barca but I'm wondering...
Why hasn't he came out and explicitly said he's not going anywhere yet? Is he unsure right now?
Or has he already done that recently and I simply missed it?
Why hasn't he came out and explicitly said he's not going anywhere yet? Is he unsure right now?
Or has he already done that recently and I simply missed it?
It's probably a message of: "don't **** with me".
He reportedly isn't happy with Enrique's management, and now that the Nou Camp is set to endure elections in the close season, I'd expect the majority of campaigns to be focusing on the promise of keeping Messi.
He'll reinforce his own strength by courting other clubs. He isn't happy with the current board, apparently, so they'll probably go along with Enrique at the end of the season. Messi will still be there. Simple.
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