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the generation gap
Curious to find out just what the generation gap actually is? Well, basically, kids tend to avoid
talking to adults, because most adults tend to *not listen*. This adds a lot to the current problems
in public schools around the world. Students are generally being treated as if they're less than
human ("Shut up!", "Tuck in your shirt!", "Don't backchat me!", etc.). Is this fair? Most teachers
won't even let a student stand up for him/herself. School is a breeding ground for incompetence and
mass conformity. Help students everywhere to do something about it: http://shortcut.to/schoolrevolt
talking to adults, because most adults tend to *not listen*. This adds a lot to the current problems
in public schools around the world. Students are generally being treated as if they're less than
human ("Shut up!", "Tuck in your shirt!", "Don't backchat me!", etc.). Is this fair? Most teachers
won't even let a student stand up for him/herself. School is a breeding ground for incompetence and
mass conformity. Help students everywhere to do something about it: http://shortcut.to/schoolrevolt
Reply 1
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:07:33 GMT, [email protected] (Tayler D) wrote:
[q1]>Curious to find out just what the generation gap actually is? Well, basically, kids tend to avoid[/q1]
[q1]>talking to adults, because most adults tend to *not listen*. This adds a lot to the current[/q1]
[q1]>problems in public schools around the world. Students are generally being treated as if they're[/q1]
[q1]>less than human ("Shut up!", "Tuck in your shirt!", "Don't backchat me!", etc.). Is this fair? Most[/q1]
[q1]>teachers won't even let a student stand up for him/herself. School is a breeding ground for[/q1]
[q1]>incompetence and mass conformity. Help students everywhere to do something about it:[/q1]
[q1]>http://shortcut.to/schoolrevolt[/q1]
We don't like the school system. We have no problem learning, it's just hard to do when it's forced,
and when the method lacks enjoyment. Teachers are sad when they see our apathy, and they try to make
us work harder, instead of considering a different point of view. School is a breeding ground for
incompetence and mass conformity. Help students everywhere to do something about it:
http://shortcut.to/schoolrevolt
[q1]>Curious to find out just what the generation gap actually is? Well, basically, kids tend to avoid[/q1]
[q1]>talking to adults, because most adults tend to *not listen*. This adds a lot to the current[/q1]
[q1]>problems in public schools around the world. Students are generally being treated as if they're[/q1]
[q1]>less than human ("Shut up!", "Tuck in your shirt!", "Don't backchat me!", etc.). Is this fair? Most[/q1]
[q1]>teachers won't even let a student stand up for him/herself. School is a breeding ground for[/q1]
[q1]>incompetence and mass conformity. Help students everywhere to do something about it:[/q1]
[q1]>http://shortcut.to/schoolrevolt[/q1]
We don't like the school system. We have no problem learning, it's just hard to do when it's forced,
and when the method lacks enjoyment. Teachers are sad when they see our apathy, and they try to make
us work harder, instead of considering a different point of view. School is a breeding ground for
incompetence and mass conformity. Help students everywhere to do something about it:
http://shortcut.to/schoolrevolt
Reply 2
Tayler D wrote:
[q1]> Curious to find out just what the generation gap actually is?[/q1]
<SNIP>
[q1]> Students are generally being treated as if they're less than human ("Shut up!", "Tuck in your[/q1]
[q1]> shirt!", "Don't backchat me!", etc.). Is this fair? Most teachers won't even let a student stand[/q1]
[q1]> up for him/herself.[/q1]
OK. Let's take a look at a real example from today in my classroom, and you can give your
*considered opinion* of how useful you think your kind of *advice* really is, Tayler.
A Year 11 pupil arrived ten minutes late for Period 7 today - which is normal for her - and I gave
her the usual warnings etc. She had arrived while the other 5th year students were sorting out their
coursework and filling in the cover sheet, so I had to explain it all over again for her. This
wasted the time I could have spent on the others. Later when she couldn't find her Shakespeare
essay, she suggested I had it for marking. I said, in a very matter of fact way, and in no manner
that could be construed as confrontational, that I had not taken in any Shakespeare work from anyone
in this group for remarking .
She replied, "Oh for f...'s sake!" loudly enough for everyone to turn around to see what the fuss
was about. I was quite shocked by this because it came from nowhere. This group of fourteen students
is not academically bright but they are all well behaved and the lessons generally proceed in a very
civilised and good-humoured way.
I quietly told her to leave the room and stand outside. Later, after a fifteen minute cooling off
period, I took her bag out to her and asked if her student planner was in it. She said, "I dunno,"
and did not look in the bag at all but tried to stare me out with deliberate and calculated
defiance. I glanced at the bag told her I could see her planner in it. She swung the bag immediately
behind her back. I asked her to give me the planner and she refused so I took her to her form tutor,
who happened tyo be in the next room. The girl continued to be rude and defiant.
As a result of this incident, the important moment of putting together the final offering of GCSE
coursework from this class was wrecked. I had particularly planned this double period as an orderly
collection of the work, ready for me to view it at the weekend, but this will now have to be
repeated next week because the bell went while we were still dealing with the girl. The marking
window I had for the weekend has been wasted, as the work is not put together in an ordered way now,
and this girl's behaviour has therefore affected the assessment of GCSE English coursework for
thirteen of her fellow students, which is a serious matter.
You talk of a "generation gap" Tayler. You're missing the point: this is a generation that is
disrupting its own progress.
--
Gareth
[q1]> Curious to find out just what the generation gap actually is?[/q1]
<SNIP>
[q1]> Students are generally being treated as if they're less than human ("Shut up!", "Tuck in your[/q1]
[q1]> shirt!", "Don't backchat me!", etc.). Is this fair? Most teachers won't even let a student stand[/q1]
[q1]> up for him/herself.[/q1]
OK. Let's take a look at a real example from today in my classroom, and you can give your
*considered opinion* of how useful you think your kind of *advice* really is, Tayler.
A Year 11 pupil arrived ten minutes late for Period 7 today - which is normal for her - and I gave
her the usual warnings etc. She had arrived while the other 5th year students were sorting out their
coursework and filling in the cover sheet, so I had to explain it all over again for her. This
wasted the time I could have spent on the others. Later when she couldn't find her Shakespeare
essay, she suggested I had it for marking. I said, in a very matter of fact way, and in no manner
that could be construed as confrontational, that I had not taken in any Shakespeare work from anyone
in this group for remarking .
She replied, "Oh for f...'s sake!" loudly enough for everyone to turn around to see what the fuss
was about. I was quite shocked by this because it came from nowhere. This group of fourteen students
is not academically bright but they are all well behaved and the lessons generally proceed in a very
civilised and good-humoured way.
I quietly told her to leave the room and stand outside. Later, after a fifteen minute cooling off
period, I took her bag out to her and asked if her student planner was in it. She said, "I dunno,"
and did not look in the bag at all but tried to stare me out with deliberate and calculated
defiance. I glanced at the bag told her I could see her planner in it. She swung the bag immediately
behind her back. I asked her to give me the planner and she refused so I took her to her form tutor,
who happened tyo be in the next room. The girl continued to be rude and defiant.
As a result of this incident, the important moment of putting together the final offering of GCSE
coursework from this class was wrecked. I had particularly planned this double period as an orderly
collection of the work, ready for me to view it at the weekend, but this will now have to be
repeated next week because the bell went while we were still dealing with the girl. The marking
window I had for the weekend has been wasted, as the work is not put together in an ordered way now,
and this girl's behaviour has therefore affected the assessment of GCSE English coursework for
thirteen of her fellow students, which is a serious matter.
You talk of a "generation gap" Tayler. You're missing the point: this is a generation that is
disrupting its own progress.
--
Gareth
Reply 3
"Jasongnome" <[email protected]> wrote in message
[q1]> The vast majority of teachers want what's best for the kids at the end of the day. Some rules that[/q1]
[q1]> seem silly and petty are there for a very good reason, and that includes dress codes.[/q1]
No.
Rules which are petty and silly should be got rid of, that includes most dress code rules.
I work in a school where there is no uniform, no bells and all staff are called by their first name.
We have one of the best 'value added' performances in the whole of the UK, we have received national
awards for excellence and have 2700 very mixed ability students.
Things CAN be different!
--
mvn
[q1]> The vast majority of teachers want what's best for the kids at the end of the day. Some rules that[/q1]
[q1]> seem silly and petty are there for a very good reason, and that includes dress codes.[/q1]
No.
Rules which are petty and silly should be got rid of, that includes most dress code rules.
I work in a school where there is no uniform, no bells and all staff are called by their first name.
We have one of the best 'value added' performances in the whole of the UK, we have received national
awards for excellence and have 2700 very mixed ability students.
Things CAN be different!
--
mvn
Reply 4
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Most kids like wearing a uniform. It makes their lives a lot simpler[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
So you're someone who doesn't know kids very well then.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Value added" is a euphamism for "crap 5A*-C percentage".[/q1]
Actually our A-C is very good too!
--
mvn
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Most kids like wearing a uniform. It makes their lives a lot simpler[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
So you're someone who doesn't know kids very well then.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Value added" is a euphamism for "crap 5A*-C percentage".[/q1]
Actually our A-C is very good too!
--
mvn
Reply 5
"Bob Spowart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]> I did supply in a school like that. Refused to go back the place was so chaotic and so obviously[/q1]
[q1]> failing the pupils.[/q1]
I've been in plenty of 'traditional' schools like that.
A good school is a good school, a bad school is a bad school.
Thepoint I'm making is that a good school doesn't _need_ uniform, bells, sirs, etc. It is bad
teachers and bad schools which need these crutches.
--
mvn
news:[email protected]...
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]> I did supply in a school like that. Refused to go back the place was so chaotic and so obviously[/q1]
[q1]> failing the pupils.[/q1]
I've been in plenty of 'traditional' schools like that.
A good school is a good school, a bad school is a bad school.
Thepoint I'm making is that a good school doesn't _need_ uniform, bells, sirs, etc. It is bad
teachers and bad schools which need these crutches.
--
mvn
Reply 6
mark wrote:
[q1]> Thepoint I'm making is that a good school doesn't _need_ uniform, bells, sirs, etc. It is bad[/q1]
[q1]> teachers and bad schools which need these crutches.[/q1]
I suggest you are over-egging the pudding in the same way that Tayler is. If what you say is true,
you are casting an absurd slur on the vast majority of teachers/schools in this country.
If there is any advantage in debating Tayler's nonsense, it is precisely that it is showing up the
logical and pedagogical poverty of the supporters of these views.
Gareth
[q1]> Thepoint I'm making is that a good school doesn't _need_ uniform, bells, sirs, etc. It is bad[/q1]
[q1]> teachers and bad schools which need these crutches.[/q1]
I suggest you are over-egging the pudding in the same way that Tayler is. If what you say is true,
you are casting an absurd slur on the vast majority of teachers/schools in this country.
If there is any advantage in debating Tayler's nonsense, it is precisely that it is showing up the
logical and pedagogical poverty of the supporters of these views.
Gareth
Reply 7
mark.norwood wrote in message <[email protected]>...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>"Jasongnome" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>> The vast majority of teachers want what's best for the kids at the end of the day. Some rules[/q2]
[q2]>> that seem silly and petty are there for a very good reason, and that includes dress codes.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>No.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Rules which are petty and silly should be got rid of, that includes most dress code rules.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>I work in a school where there is no uniform, no bells and all staff are called by their[/q1]
[q1]>first name.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>We have one of the best 'value added' performances in the whole of the UK, we have received[/q1]
[q1]>national awards for excellence and have 2700 very mixed ability students.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Things CAN be different![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
I did supply in a school like that. Refused to go back the place was so chaotic and so obviously
failing the pupils.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>"Jasongnome" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>> The vast majority of teachers want what's best for the kids at the end of the day. Some rules[/q2]
[q2]>> that seem silly and petty are there for a very good reason, and that includes dress codes.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>No.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Rules which are petty and silly should be got rid of, that includes most dress code rules.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>I work in a school where there is no uniform, no bells and all staff are called by their[/q1]
[q1]>first name.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>We have one of the best 'value added' performances in the whole of the UK, we have received[/q1]
[q1]>national awards for excellence and have 2700 very mixed ability students.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Things CAN be different![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
I did supply in a school like that. Refused to go back the place was so chaotic and so obviously
failing the pupils.
Reply 8
Dave wrote:
[q1]> It is my experience that most pupils prefer a bit of discipline. Generally they like teachers that[/q1]
[q1]> can control the class, keep them on task and achieving, rather than those that let some run riot.[/q1]
[q1]> I further feel most schools have a high regard for their pupils' wellbeing; you should not equate[/q1]
[q1]> discipline with mental cruelty. It is cruel not to set the boundaries for pupils which they will[/q1]
[q1]> be expected to adhere to in the adult world.[/q1]
I agree completely. But more than that; when the class as a whole has acquired the aprropriate
social skills to interact, learn and communicate knowledge to each other in a classroom (i.e.
learned the rules that Tayler doesn't understand yet), an relaxed atmosphere is possible in which
all the humour and humanity - that Tayler simply idealizes - becomes a daily reality.
I am fortunate to work in a school where the kind of incident I have described elsewhere in this
thread is rare and surprising when it happens. Having worked in Kent high schools with poor
management slavishly following every government scam "initiative" and kids ruling the corridors, I
see Tayler's anarchy as a perfect corollary of DfE control freakery. You deserve each other. And we
who build hope and provide social continuity with sensible and sensitively implemented discipline
are despised by both of you, just for doing a job that places us, inevitably, in a position of
relative autonomy in an unequal setting. But it always has been unequal: some are there to learn and
others are there to teach.
Sorry, is that reactionary? Sure, help ruin you fellow students' chances by demonstrating poor
social skills, then go off an join a retro hippy commune. When you realize what a mistake you've
made, the system willstill be there to welcome you when you're 25 yaers old, serving burgers, and
applying to do a degree as a mature student who suddenly realizes he's blown his life chances.
Then you fit in with the system and become a reactionary who appreciates the need for social skills.
--
Scatterbunny ~..~ ( ` )
[q1]> It is my experience that most pupils prefer a bit of discipline. Generally they like teachers that[/q1]
[q1]> can control the class, keep them on task and achieving, rather than those that let some run riot.[/q1]
[q1]> I further feel most schools have a high regard for their pupils' wellbeing; you should not equate[/q1]
[q1]> discipline with mental cruelty. It is cruel not to set the boundaries for pupils which they will[/q1]
[q1]> be expected to adhere to in the adult world.[/q1]
I agree completely. But more than that; when the class as a whole has acquired the aprropriate
social skills to interact, learn and communicate knowledge to each other in a classroom (i.e.
learned the rules that Tayler doesn't understand yet), an relaxed atmosphere is possible in which
all the humour and humanity - that Tayler simply idealizes - becomes a daily reality.
I am fortunate to work in a school where the kind of incident I have described elsewhere in this
thread is rare and surprising when it happens. Having worked in Kent high schools with poor
management slavishly following every government scam "initiative" and kids ruling the corridors, I
see Tayler's anarchy as a perfect corollary of DfE control freakery. You deserve each other. And we
who build hope and provide social continuity with sensible and sensitively implemented discipline
are despised by both of you, just for doing a job that places us, inevitably, in a position of
relative autonomy in an unequal setting. But it always has been unequal: some are there to learn and
others are there to teach.
Sorry, is that reactionary? Sure, help ruin you fellow students' chances by demonstrating poor
social skills, then go off an join a retro hippy commune. When you realize what a mistake you've
made, the system willstill be there to welcome you when you're 25 yaers old, serving burgers, and
applying to do a degree as a mature student who suddenly realizes he's blown his life chances.
Then you fit in with the system and become a reactionary who appreciates the need for social skills.
--
Scatterbunny ~..~ ( ` )
Reply 9
janet wrote:
[q1]> I know it's tangential to the point you are making, but I'd like to put a word in here for mature[/q1]
[q1]> students.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Some of them are in this position, yes.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> But the vast majority of the ones I've known and taught are anything but[/q1]
[q1]> - they tend to be people who left the educational system at a young age (younger than would be[/q1]
[q1]> allowed now) for reasons which tended to be more economic than anything else. I'm sure you[/q1]
[q1]> didn't mean to categorise mature students...[/q1]
No, I didn't. I was one. The point was rhetorical rather than sociological.
--
Gareth
[q1]> I know it's tangential to the point you are making, but I'd like to put a word in here for mature[/q1]
[q1]> students.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Some of them are in this position, yes.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> But the vast majority of the ones I've known and taught are anything but[/q1]
[q1]> - they tend to be people who left the educational system at a young age (younger than would be[/q1]
[q1]> allowed now) for reasons which tended to be more economic than anything else. I'm sure you[/q1]
[q1]> didn't mean to categorise mature students...[/q1]
No, I didn't. I was one. The point was rhetorical rather than sociological.
--
Gareth
Reply 10
[q1]>"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> Most kids like wearing a uniform. It makes their lives a lot simpler[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:19:05 -0000, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>So you're someone who doesn't know kids very well then.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
No I would suggest it is you who does not know the kids very well. Talk to them most of them
appreciate the fact they do not have to think about what to wear on a school day and don't have to
ruin their expensive weekend clothes wearing them to school every day. This is before you even get
into the whole territory of (clothes) "labels".
--
Dave([email protected])
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> Most kids like wearing a uniform. It makes their lives a lot simpler[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:19:05 -0000, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>So you're someone who doesn't know kids very well then.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
No I would suggest it is you who does not know the kids very well. Talk to them most of them
appreciate the fact they do not have to think about what to wear on a school day and don't have to
ruin their expensive weekend clothes wearing them to school every day. This is before you even get
into the whole territory of (clothes) "labels".
--
Dave([email protected])
Reply 11
"Gareth Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> I suggest you are over-egging the pudding in the same way that Tayler is. If what you say is true,[/q1]
[q1]> you are casting an absurd slur on the vast[/q1]
majority
[q1]> of teachers/schools in this country.[/q1]
I think you are misinterpreting what I have said (possibly deliberately).
What I am saying is that good teachers are good teachers regardless of the rules of the schools they
work in. Bad teachers are the only teachers who _need_ to be called 'sir' and _need_ the kids to
wear uniform.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> If there is any advantage in debating Tayler's nonsense, it is precisely that it is showing up the[/q1]
[q1]> logical and pedagogical poverty of the[/q1]
supporters
[q1]> of these views.[/q1]
I'm not sure if perhaps you are trolling. All I have done is state that there is a very large, very
successful secondary comp' which does things differently from most schools AND IT WORKS!
I am not in anyway agreeing with the views of the original poster other than to say that questioning
the current system is a valid and necessary exercise.
It is because of people who automatically put down schools which are different, that it takes so
long for education to improve.
Are you and Dave in this group? If so there is little point in discussing the issues with you as you
are unwilling to accept that anything other than the norm could be successful. Next you'll be
telling us to bring back the cane!
--
mvn
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> I suggest you are over-egging the pudding in the same way that Tayler is. If what you say is true,[/q1]
[q1]> you are casting an absurd slur on the vast[/q1]
majority
[q1]> of teachers/schools in this country.[/q1]
I think you are misinterpreting what I have said (possibly deliberately).
What I am saying is that good teachers are good teachers regardless of the rules of the schools they
work in. Bad teachers are the only teachers who _need_ to be called 'sir' and _need_ the kids to
wear uniform.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> If there is any advantage in debating Tayler's nonsense, it is precisely that it is showing up the[/q1]
[q1]> logical and pedagogical poverty of the[/q1]
supporters
[q1]> of these views.[/q1]
I'm not sure if perhaps you are trolling. All I have done is state that there is a very large, very
successful secondary comp' which does things differently from most schools AND IT WORKS!
I am not in anyway agreeing with the views of the original poster other than to say that questioning
the current system is a valid and necessary exercise.
It is because of people who automatically put down schools which are different, that it takes so
long for education to improve.
Are you and Dave in this group? If so there is little point in discussing the issues with you as you
are unwilling to accept that anything other than the norm could be successful. Next you'll be
telling us to bring back the cane!
--
mvn
Reply 12
From: "Dave" <[email protected]>
[q1]> No I would suggest it is you who does not know the kids very well. Talk to them most of them[/q1]
[q1]> appreciate the fact they do not have to think about what to wear on a school day and don't have to[/q1]
[q1]> ruin their expensive weekend clothes wearing them to school every day. This is before you even get[/q1]
[q1]> into the whole territory of (clothes) "labels".[/q1]
I used to think the same, now I know it's rubbish.
The kids I teach have their every day 'school' clothes, jeans T shirts etc. They don't have to worry
about what to wear. Some wear labels but most don't. There is no pressure over clothes.
This is a complete contrast to the previous uniformed schools I've worked in where they have to wear
the 'right' maroon jumper to be accepted.
I have learnt by experience that my previous beliefs about uniform were misguided. I doubt that many
who criticise uniformless schools have experience of them in action.
--
mvn
[q1]> No I would suggest it is you who does not know the kids very well. Talk to them most of them[/q1]
[q1]> appreciate the fact they do not have to think about what to wear on a school day and don't have to[/q1]
[q1]> ruin their expensive weekend clothes wearing them to school every day. This is before you even get[/q1]
[q1]> into the whole territory of (clothes) "labels".[/q1]
I used to think the same, now I know it's rubbish.
The kids I teach have their every day 'school' clothes, jeans T shirts etc. They don't have to worry
about what to wear. Some wear labels but most don't. There is no pressure over clothes.
This is a complete contrast to the previous uniformed schools I've worked in where they have to wear
the 'right' maroon jumper to be accepted.
I have learnt by experience that my previous beliefs about uniform were misguided. I doubt that many
who criticise uniformless schools have experience of them in action.
--
mvn
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'Everything went off': How Spain and Portugal's massive power cut unfolded
