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Ghosts- Do they exist or not? watch

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    Yes. Insofar as the word "ghost" is in the dictionary. This is as far as my belief in God goes as well. There are those who want to believe and those who don't. For those who do, objectivity means nothing and for those who don't, there is no proof that will convince any believer.
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    (Original post by Annika17)
    Do ghosts exist or not?

    Has anyone had a ghostly experience?
    Ghosts, spirits, demons. They all exist.
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    I have two experiances, one more weird than the other.

    Number 1, the less weird one: I was on a camp with the cadets staying in an RAF building, which was quite old but not really old, it was modern inside at least. Anyway at night there were lots of noises of people running up and down the coriddors and banging on the walls. They started about midnight and continued on and off for about an hour say. I was freaked out, as they were so loud and realistic sounding, just like the sound made when (real) people run down the corridor. Anyway I put it down to noisy pipes or the others playing a prank on us to scare us. I went in the morning to ask one of the people in the room on the other side of the building and they thought it was us pranking them! It did not seem like a prank anyway, as there were no voices (like laughing etc.) and it continued for so long. So it must have been the pipes. However, a couple of days later I saw a sign next to the heating timer dial that the heating came on at 6 in the morning and for a few hours and then came on about 6 in the evening till 10 o'clock and not to touch the dial. So i doubt that the pipes were making the noise. Also, there were no such noises in the morning when the pipes heated up or cooled down. So the only explanation I can think of is that there was something else making those noises. I don't know what and I'm not saying it was a ghost im just unsure.

    Number 2, which i found very strange happened at a neighbours barbeque: I was sitting on my own on a sofa with a conservatory window behing me, on which an empty glass of drink had been placed a while earlier. The conservatory led out into the kitchen, where most people were talking. There were 2 people sitting to my left on another sofa, about 3 metres away. Suddenly a glass smashed on the floor ( I didn't know about the glass behind me at this point). I looked up into the kitchen, which i thought was the only possible direction it could of come from, since I had the two others in the conservator in plain view and they certainly did not throw a glass. The people near me also thought the glass had come from the kitchen. We all looked up and asked who threw the glass, to which the reply was 'You did!'. Obviously I didn't know about the glass, so couldnt have touched it and nor could have the other 2 people. The people in the kitchen didn't throw it so the only explanation was that it had moved itself, over the back of the sofa, and onto the floor! This was not a gust of wind etc as the glass went right over the top of me or just to the left of me, (I was sitting on the sofa) and landed in front of the sofa. Strange!! Also it turns out that the previous owner of the house was a very nice old man who had recently died. I did not know of this man before, so I couldn't imagine that it was him etc. Any explanations?
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    I had a few experiences, but I don't really know them.... strange.....
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    to whoever says they had an experience -
    what did the ghosts do to you?
    did they scare the **** out of you?
    did they pull nasty faces?
    did they hurt you?
    did they talk to you?
    did you recognise them?

    lots of people have said they have seen ghosts but i want something more descriptive
    im open minded but have never experienced anything abnormal - so i guess i doubt that ghosts exist
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    If you have the time you could read this wonderful extract from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance. It's a little over a 1000 words so I'll split it in three posts.
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    "Let's tell stories then," Chris says. He thinks for a while. "Do you know any good ghost stories? All the kids in our cabin used to tell ghost stories at night."

    "You tell us some," John says.

    And he does. They are kind of fun to hear. Some of them I haven't heard since I was his age. I tell him so, and Chris wants to hear some of mine, but I can't remember any.

    After a while he says, "Do you believe in ghosts?"
    "No," I say

    "Why not?"

    "Because they are un-sci-en-ti-fic."

    The way I say this makes John smile. "They contain no matter," I continue, "and have no energy and therefore, according to the laws of science, do not exist except in people's minds."

    The whiskey, the fatigue and the wind in the trees start mixing in my mind. "Of course," I add, "the laws of science contain no matter and have no energy either and therefore do not exist except in people's minds. It's best to be completely scientific about the whole thing and refuse to believe in either ghosts or the laws of science. That way you're safe. That doesn't leave you very much to believe in, but that's scientific too."

    "I don't know what you're talking about," Chris says.

    "I'm being kind of facetious."

    Chris gets frustrated when I talk like this, but I don't think it hurts him.
    "One of the kids at YMCA camp says he believes in ghosts."

    "He was just spoofing you."

    "No, he wasn't. He said that when people haven't been buried right, their ghosts come back to haunt people. He really believes in that."

    "He was just spoofing you," I repeat.

    "What's his name?" Sylvia says.
    "Tom White Bear."

    John and I exchange looks, suddenly recognizing the same thing.

    "Ohhh, Indian!" he says.

    I laugh. "I guess I'm going to have to take that back a little," I say. "I was thinking of European ghosts."

    "What's the difference?"

    John roars with laughter. "He's got you," he says.

    I think a little and say, "Well, Indians sometimes have a different way of looking at things, which I'm not saying is completely wrong. Science isn't part of the Indian tradition."

    "Tom White Bear said his mother and dad told him not to believe all that stuff. But he said his grandmother whispered it was true anyway, so he believes it."

    He looks at me pleadingly. He really does want to know things sometimes. Being facetious is not being a very good father. "Sure," I say, reversing myself, "I believe in ghosts too."
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    Now John and Sylvia look at me peculiarly. I see I'm not going to get out of this one easily and brace myself for a long explanation.

    "It's completely natural," I say, "to think of Europeans who believed in ghosts or Indians who believed in ghosts as ignorant. The scientific point of view has wiped out every other view to a point where they all seem primitive, so that if a person today talks about ghosts or spirits he is considered ignorant or maybe nutty. It's just all but completely impossible to imagine a world where ghosts can actually exist."

    John nods affirmatively and I continue.
    "My own opinion is that the intellect of modern man isn't that superior. IQs aren't that much different. Those Indians and medieval men were just as intelligent as we are, but the context in which they thought was completely different. Within that context of thought, ghosts and spirits are quite as real as atoms, particles, photons and quants are to a modern man. In that sense I believe in ghosts. Modern man has his ghosts and spirits too, you know."

    "What?"

    "Oh, the laws of physics and of logic -- the number system -- the principle of algebraic substitution. These are ghosts. We just believe in them so thoroughly they seem real.

    "They seem real to me," John says.

    "I don't get it," says Chris.

    So I go on. "For example, it seems completely natural to presume that gravitation and the law of gravitation existed before Isaac Newton. It would sound nutty to think that until the seventeenth century there was no gravity."

    "Of course."

    "So when did this law start? Has it always existed?"

    John is frowning, wondering what I am getting at.
    "What I'm driving at," I say, "is the notion that before the beginning of the earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before the primal generation of anything, the law of gravity existed."

    "Sure."

    "Sitting there, having no mass of its own, no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind because there wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space either, not anywhere...this law of gravity still existed?"

    Now John seems not so sure.
    "If that law of gravity existed," I say, "I honestly don't know what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It seems to me that law of gravity has passed every test of nonexistence there is. You cannot think of a single attribute of nonexistence that that law of gravity didn't have. Or a single scientific attribute of existence it did have. And yet it is still `common sense' to believe that it existed."

    John says, "I guess I'd have to think about it."

    "Well, I predict that if you think about it long enough you will find yourself going round and round and round and round until you finally reach only one possible, rational, intelligent conclusion. The law of gravity and gravity itself did not exist before Isaac Newton. No other conclusion makes sense.
    "And what that means," I say before he can interrupt, "and what that means is that that law of gravity exists nowhere except in people's heads! It's a ghost! We are all of us very arrogant and conceited about running down other people's ghosts but just as ignorant and barbaric and superstitious about our own."

    "Why does everybody believe in the law of gravity then?"

    "Mass hypnosis. In a very orthodox form known as `education."'

    "You mean the teacher is hypnotizing the kids into believing the law of gravity?"

    "Sure."
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    "That's absurd."

    "You've heard of the importance of eye contact in the classroom? Every educationist emphasizes it. No educationist explains it."

    John shakes his head and pours me another drink. He puts his hand over his mouth and in a mock aside says to Sylvia, "You know, most of the time he seems like such a normal guy."

    I counter, "That's the first normal thing I've said in weeks. The rest of the time I'm feigning twentieth-
    century lunacy just like you are. So as not to draw attention to myself.

    "But I'll repeat it for you," I say. "We believe the disembodied words of Sir Isaac Newton were sitting in the middle of nowhere billions of years before he was born and that magically he discovered these words. They were always there, even when they applied to nothing. Gradually the world came into being and then they applied to it. In fact, those words themselves were what formed the world. That, John, is ridiculous.

    "The problem, the contradiction the scientists are stuck with, is that of mind. Mind has no matter or energy but they can't escape its predominance over everything they do. Logic exists in the mind. Numbers exist only in the mind. I don't get upset when scientists say that ghosts exist in the mind. It's that only that gets me. Science is only in your mind too, it's just that that doesn't make it bad. Or ghosts either."

    They are just looking at me so I continue: "Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. Laws of logic, of mathematics are also human inventions, like ghosts. The whole blessed thing is a human invention, including the idea that it isn't a human invention. The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination. It's all a ghost, and in antiquity was so recognized as a ghost, the whole blessed world we live in. It's run by ghosts. We see what we see because these ghosts show it to us, ghosts of Moses and Christ and the Buddha, and Plato, and Descartes, and Rousseau and Jefferson and Lincoln, on and on and on. Isaac Newton is a very good ghost. One of the best. Your common sense is nothing more than the voices of thousands and thousands of these ghosts from the past. Ghosts and more ghosts. Ghosts trying to find their place among the living."
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    Does it strike anyone else that paranormal investigators get things the wrong way around? Shouldn't they look for accepted scientific explinations of 'ghosts' before they look for paranormal ones? For example, there was a documentary that mentioned a women who worked alone in a lab at night who kept seeing a ghostly figure in the courner of her eye. After some investigation, other scientists in the building worked out that what it was was a ceiling fan. It had been producing a very low frequency noise, which had disturbed the women's bits in the back of her eye (I forget what they're called, they're like loads of little sensors that pick up different parts of the picture) and had made her see a ghostly figure.

    There are other instances of apparent modern scientific explinations for what people believed were ghosts. it's also probably that a large number of these enterties are fabrications by people seeking attention or just trying to scare friends & family etc. This of course does not explain all the apparent instances, which is why I ask shouldn't 'paranormal' investigators look foir 'normal' solutions to problems first?

    What I don't know about at all is poltiguiests. Any scientific explinations for certain examples anyone?
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    What I don't get about supposed poltergeists is how can they hold solid things and throw them, when they melt through walls and you can't touch them? I smell a rat . . . .
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    (Original post by FrisbeeFan)
    What I don't get about supposed poltergeists is how can they hold solid things and throw them, when they melt through walls and you can't touch them? I smell a rat . . . .
    Yes, I've often wondered that too...
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    Kew96158, could you post on your history thread, in reply to my last post please?
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    (Original post by FrisbeeFan)
    Kew96158, could you post on your history thread, in reply to my last post please?
    OK!
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    (Original post by FrisbeeFan)
    What I don't get about supposed poltergeists is how can they hold solid things and throw them, when they melt through walls and you can't touch them? I smell a rat . . . .
    Poltergeists aren't ghosts apparantly.
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    (Original post by AntiMagicMan)
    Poltergeists aren't ghosts apparantly.
    What are they then?
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    I personally, don't think that there is any such thing as ghosts.... I think that "orbs" are just a coincidence that many people associate with ghosts.... of course, I could be wrong (and often am) but I don't see any true evidence that states that there are actually ghosts in the world.
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    (Original post by Annika17)
    Do ghosts exist or not?

    Has anyone had a ghostly experience?
    Ghosts don't exist.
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    (Original post by FrisbeeFan)
    What I don't get about supposed poltergeists is how can they hold solid things and throw them, when they melt through walls and you can't touch them? I smell a rat . . . .
    If ghosts existed polstergeists would not be ghosts considering that they can manipulate physical objects. But since ghosts don't exist it is an anomaly best left for the fiction writers to figure out.
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    (Original post by FrisbeeFan)
    What I don't get about supposed poltergeists is how can they hold solid things and throw them, when they melt through walls and you can't touch them? I smell a rat . . . .
    Does that mean ghosts can't attack people?? If a ghost ever tries to kill me I can just stand there and taunt it??
 
 
 
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