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"British culture": destroyed by immigrants?
In various arguments with the BNP, the issue of the erosion of British culture as a result of immigration seems to rear its ugly head, time and again.
However, when I put forward the idea that this is a 'buzz-phrase' used rather cynically (and incorrectly I might add) only to rouse emotional sympathies for the BNP among the general public, this is flatly denied. The culture of Britain really is under threat it seems, at least as far as the BNP is concerned.
Thus we can conclude that the issue of "British culture" is important to some, if not all, members of the BNP. However when asked to define this remarkably nebulous concept, I am met only with the response that it is too difficult to define. But surely every political adherent must be able to defend their claims, even reactionary mercantilists like the BNP-ers?
So quite simply I am looking for a definition of what constitutes "British culture", how it is under threat and subsequent proof of this erosion of "British culture", from the BNP supporters on this forum - flux, birchygreen et al.
And please dont bother with comments like this:
(http://thestudentroom.co.uk/showpost.php?p=4374816&postcount=133)
... as these clearly hold no water.
If no response is forthcoming from the BNP fans, then I will assume that you are using "the erosion of British culture" as an emotive buzz phrase to rouse peoples sympathies to your reactionary cause, which would be just another mistake by the BNP
However, when I put forward the idea that this is a 'buzz-phrase' used rather cynically (and incorrectly I might add) only to rouse emotional sympathies for the BNP among the general public, this is flatly denied. The culture of Britain really is under threat it seems, at least as far as the BNP is concerned.
Thus we can conclude that the issue of "British culture" is important to some, if not all, members of the BNP. However when asked to define this remarkably nebulous concept, I am met only with the response that it is too difficult to define. But surely every political adherent must be able to defend their claims, even reactionary mercantilists like the BNP-ers?
So quite simply I am looking for a definition of what constitutes "British culture", how it is under threat and subsequent proof of this erosion of "British culture", from the BNP supporters on this forum - flux, birchygreen et al.
And please dont bother with comments like this:
Quote:
I'm incredibly short-sighted eh? And there was me thinking that you were the one supporting a reactionary faux party. Well well, fancy that.
I have never claimed that there is "no such thing as British culture"; far from it in fact. I believe that British culture is about rights of the individual and freedom that comes with our civil liberties. Thus denying civil liberties to others is fundamentally against British culture. You are in point of fact the one who is out to destroy british culture and all it stands for from where I'm sitting.
Your oh-so-subtle attempt at emotively describing a by-gone Britain with village churches and local butchers has remarkably failed to convince me that asylum seekers are wholly responsible for the secularisation of Britain (and thus the decline of churches) and the growth in cheap supermarkets (and thus the decline of local butchers). However, had I three or fewer braincells, I suspect that I would be won over to your cause. Keep beating the same old drum though, it really is amusing.
Originally Posted by Flux
Johnny you are an incredibly short sighted person. The things which make British culture are far too numerous to name here and yet you claim there is no such thing as British culture. In 50 years time, when your village church has become your village mosque, you can't buy pork sausages from your local butcher, you can't buy alcohol and all the women are walking round with their heads covered. Then let's see you tell us there was never any such thing as British culture.
Johnny you are an incredibly short sighted person. The things which make British culture are far too numerous to name here and yet you claim there is no such thing as British culture. In 50 years time, when your village church has become your village mosque, you can't buy pork sausages from your local butcher, you can't buy alcohol and all the women are walking round with their heads covered. Then let's see you tell us there was never any such thing as British culture.
I'm incredibly short-sighted eh? And there was me thinking that you were the one supporting a reactionary faux party. Well well, fancy that.
I have never claimed that there is "no such thing as British culture"; far from it in fact. I believe that British culture is about rights of the individual and freedom that comes with our civil liberties. Thus denying civil liberties to others is fundamentally against British culture. You are in point of fact the one who is out to destroy british culture and all it stands for from where I'm sitting.
Your oh-so-subtle attempt at emotively describing a by-gone Britain with village churches and local butchers has remarkably failed to convince me that asylum seekers are wholly responsible for the secularisation of Britain (and thus the decline of churches) and the growth in cheap supermarkets (and thus the decline of local butchers). However, had I three or fewer braincells, I suspect that I would be won over to your cause. Keep beating the same old drum though, it really is amusing.
... as these clearly hold no water.
If no response is forthcoming from the BNP fans, then I will assume that you are using "the erosion of British culture" as an emotive buzz phrase to rouse peoples sympathies to your reactionary cause, which would be just another mistake by the BNP
Scroll to see replies
For all their history, the defining and most valued cultural idea of Britian's native peoples has been that Britain and the home countries belonged to them. Love of homelands and the fight to attain or retain them seem to be an essential and galvanising element of any people and any culture.
The "what is British culture" ploy is a ridiculous and transparent charade, and I hear it far more from anti-BNPers than from the BNPers. Go tell every other people on the planet that they should blend themselves out because they share aspects of culture with other peoples, you'll usually get a punch, often you'll get worse.
The "what is British culture" ploy is a ridiculous and transparent charade, and I hear it far more from anti-BNPers than from the BNPers. Go tell every other people on the planet that they should blend themselves out because they share aspects of culture with other peoples, you'll usually get a punch, often you'll get worse.
ArthurOliver
For all their history, the defining and most valued cultural idea of Britian's native peoples has been that Britain and the home countries belonged to them. Love of homelands and the fight to attain or retain them seem to be an essential and galvanising element of any people and any culture.
Which native peoples? There's quite a range you see:
Celts
Romans
Anglo-Saxons
Vikings
Normans
The German House of Hannover and its influence.
Which one is it to be since they were all different races?
Johnny
Which native peoples? There's quite a range you see:
Celts
Romans
Anglo-Saxons
Vikings
Normans
The German House of Hannover and its influence.
Which one is it to be since they were all different races?
Celts
Romans
Anglo-Saxons
Vikings
Normans
The German House of Hannover and its influence.
Which one is it to be since they were all different races?
The native peoples who still live and wish to continue living as nations in their homelands are the English, Welsh and Scots. (I don't get involved with N.Ireland 'cos I don't understand it or have a feeling for it).
So if one day all the 'white Britons' decided to change religion, sell different types of food, change the legal system etc, that would be ok? As long as there was no foreign influence? Or do I have a duty to make sure tradition remains in place for the sake of tradition?
cheesecakebobby
So if one day all the 'white Britons' decided to change religion, sell different types of food, change the legal system etc, that would be ok? As long as there was no foreign influence? Or do I have a duty to make sure tradition remains in place for the sake of tradition?
ArthurOliver
I've never met any of them, have you?
It's funny you should say that because you will have members of all of them in your ancestry without any doubt; we all do.
So just what is British then? A melange of all these races? Because forgive me for stating the bleeding obvious but that doesn't sound very racially pure now does it?
I have just as much reason to keep tradition for the sake of tradition as to accept change for the sake of change. In the cases where there is moral reason for change, I support it, and the opposite holds. But in most cases, there is no benefit nor damage caused. Hence I don't care whether the summer fete has morris dancing or bhangra, or what the women in the park choose to wear on their heads. Obviously, when political freedoms and so on actually are threatened I will care, but not because that is how I define this mysterious 'culture', but because it is the result of rational discourse which should aim at what is best for the whole of society.
Johnny
It's funny you should say that because you will have members of all of them in your ancestry without any doubt; we all do.
So just what is British then? A melange of all these races? Because forgive me for stating the bleeding obvious but that doesn't sound very racially pure now does it?
So just what is British then? A melange of all these races? Because forgive me for stating the bleeding obvious but that doesn't sound very racially pure now does it?
The "racial purity" is another nice attempt to draw responses which can easily be made to seem extreme or silly. Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples, the vast majority now just historic characters like the Vikings or the Celts. What you say for the English goes for the Zulus -- go tell them they haven't a right or a reason to want the Zulu nation to stick around. In fact do it alone, at night, in a rowdy bar please.
cheesecakebobby
I have just as much reason to keep tradition for the sake of tradition as to accept change for the sake of change. In the cases where there is moral reason for change, I support it, and the opposite holds. But in most cases, there is no benefit nor damage caused. Hence I don't care whether the summer fete has morris dancing or bhangra, or what the women in the park choose to wear on their heads. Obviously, when political freedoms and so on actually are threatened I will care, but not because that is how I define this mysterious 'culture', but because it is the result of rational discourse which should aim at what is best for the whole of society.
Eventually you're all gonna realise that you've left millions of people behind who don't want to change and don't like the toothpaste you're selling! There'll need to be a reckoning.
Laurence Auster had an exchange with reader on this subject a coupla days ago. I hope you'll read it and respond CCB. http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005405.html
ArthurOliver
I'm not much attached to Britain Johnny, I see it as precisely what is, a federation of nations.
The "racial purity" is another nice attempt to draw responses which can easily be made to seem extreme or silly. Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples, the vast majority now just historic characters like the Vikings or the Celts. What you say for the English goes for the Zulus -- go tell them they haven't a right or a reason to want the Zulu nation to stick around. In fact do it alone, at night, in a rowdy bar please.
The "racial purity" is another nice attempt to draw responses which can easily be made to seem extreme or silly. Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples, the vast majority now just historic characters like the Vikings or the Celts. What you say for the English goes for the Zulus -- go tell them they haven't a right or a reason to want the Zulu nation to stick around. In fact do it alone, at night, in a rowdy bar please.
To be perfectly honest, your responses already seem extreme and silly, without my help. It's just interesting to probe your beliefs.
If you accept that "Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples", why are you against further mixing of races? Is it simply because it's just happening too quickly for you? Do you need to resort to reactionary politics to stop it?
If, as you quite rightly say, "Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples", why stop the continual development and assimilating of other peoples?
British culture is now world culture.
Johnny
To be perfectly honest, your responses already seem extreme and silly, without my help. It's just interesting to probe your beliefs.
If you accept that "Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples", why are you against further mixing of races? Is it simply because it's just happening too quickly for you? Do you need to resort to reactionary politics to stop it?
If, as you quite rightly say, "Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples", why stop the continual development and assimilating of other peoples?
If you accept that "Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples", why are you against further mixing of races? Is it simply because it's just happening too quickly for you? Do you need to resort to reactionary politics to stop it?
If, as you quite rightly say, "Every people around today developed from a mixing and an assimilation of countless other peoples", why stop the continual development and assimilating of other peoples?
Such massive changes without referenda, when very clearly the public are substantially against such changes is a remarkable test of the national patience, and I don't think it will be too long before various roads (economy, Jihad, minority status for Whites in ever more cities...) converge and the juggernaut and the Old Brits collide.
edit: I'm a secessionist Johnny. You go your way and we'll go ours is my ideal. Goodnight.
"British culture" was destroyed long before immigrants arrived on her shores. The moment Britons took the momentous descision to leave their safe and sheltered shores, to go around he world learning and contributing to civilizaton, her 'indigenous' culture was doomed.
To anyone who has read even a spot of History, one would understand that immigration has not destroyed British culture, the Empire did that first.
However, I am certainly concerned with certain aspects of British culutre that are being erroded. I have always seen British culture as openess, tolerance, and above all patriotic. Britain is a multi-cultural society, whether one would admit it or not. Scots, Welsh, and Englishmen from various regions have all shared and contributed to one anothers communities while peacefully coexisting. All of these groups have been strongly patriotic and proud of their mutual identity.
What troubles me, though, is the fact that many incomming groups do not display these feelings. While many immigrants, and their descendants, are just as British in patriotism and identity as anyone else, I see many immigrant groups segregating themselves from the mainstream, seeking to impose their views and norms on all other groups, all while looking down their noses at Britain and her inhabitants.
That is my daily rave on this issue, so you may or disagree, but this is simply the way I view the issue.
To anyone who has read even a spot of History, one would understand that immigration has not destroyed British culture, the Empire did that first.
However, I am certainly concerned with certain aspects of British culutre that are being erroded. I have always seen British culture as openess, tolerance, and above all patriotic. Britain is a multi-cultural society, whether one would admit it or not. Scots, Welsh, and Englishmen from various regions have all shared and contributed to one anothers communities while peacefully coexisting. All of these groups have been strongly patriotic and proud of their mutual identity.
What troubles me, though, is the fact that many incomming groups do not display these feelings. While many immigrants, and their descendants, are just as British in patriotism and identity as anyone else, I see many immigrant groups segregating themselves from the mainstream, seeking to impose their views and norms on all other groups, all while looking down their noses at Britain and her inhabitants.
That is my daily rave on this issue, so you may or disagree, but this is simply the way I view the issue.
The idea that Britain is slowly converting into a Muslim country, 'whites will be a minority by 2050' blah blah blah is simply hysterical xenophobia.
Truth be told, perhaps we are losing traditional British culture - but we're trading it in for American and European culture, not Islamic values as the BNP lunatics here would have you believe. I think that the stretch of the media and globalisation has watered down all cultures to an extent, particularly the export of American culture and media.
Truth be told, perhaps we are losing traditional British culture - but we're trading it in for American and European culture, not Islamic values as the BNP lunatics here would have you believe. I think that the stretch of the media and globalisation has watered down all cultures to an extent, particularly the export of American culture and media.
Arthur, that exchange initially appeared interesting, but assertions like "God exists. Christ exists. The revelation of God in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures is as true now as it was two thousand years ago" convince me that LA is just as steadfast in his beliefs as the atheist he debates with, to the point of a stalemate where each is just as arrogant. I'm afraid the philosophical black hole diverts my attention too much from the issue at hand.
SolInvincitus
"British culture" was destroyed long before immigrants arrived on her shores. The moment Britons took the momentous descision to leave their safe and sheltered shores, to go around he world learning and contributing to civilizaton, her 'indigenous' culture was doomed.
To anyone who has read even a spot of History, one would understand that immigration has not destroyed British culture, the Empire did that first.
To anyone who has read even a spot of History, one would understand that immigration has not destroyed British culture, the Empire did that first.
Very insightful comment. Although I'd say the Empire didn't destroy British culture directly. It simply prevented Britons from ever defining British culture and values. Everyone was looking outwards that they didn't have to question what defined Britain.
France and the US have clearly defined values inherited from revolutions. Germany and Italy created nations based on a common language... Britain never got round to defining what it was. With a lack of common ideals and values (apart from maybe those which were born from two world wars and an Empire), people fell back onto regional identities or continued looking outward towards the "Dominions" such as Australia or Canada which seemed to have strong identities that they could identify with.
From an outsider's viewpoint, it's amazing that a country such as Britain, which has such a strong common language, shared cultural references, has been altogether incapable of establishing its identity effectively. From an outsider's viewpoint, there's everything here to create a strong nation with a common culture.
Think about countries such as Belgium, Switzerland or Spain which can't even rely on a common language
Most of what we consider the hallmarks of british culture were actually created by immigrants. Fish and Chips is actually a combination of a german jewish dish and a hugenot way of preparing potatoes.
The point is that British culture is inexorably linked to immigrants through empire and even before then.
The point is that British culture is inexorably linked to immigrants through empire and even before then.
cheesecakebobby
Arthur, that exchange initially appeared interesting, but assertions like "God exists. Christ exists. The revelation of God in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures is as true now as it was two thousand years ago" convince me that LA is just as steadfast in his beliefs as the atheist he debates with, to the point of a stalemate where each is just as arrogant. I'm afraid the philosophical black hole diverts my attention too much from the issue at hand.
Auster is absolutely solid in his faith and in his political conviction, and in his rejection of the extreme liberal programme. And there are millions like him across America , and Europe too, who aren't with the programme.
There are also millions of Muslims in the West now, equally steadfast in their rejection of the transnational progressive agenda, and the havoc it wreaks on traditional cultures, and further, equally hostile to the Western tradition which Auster and millions and millions of others would preserve and cherish.
As I say, a conservative wouldn't have created this mess, but as mess there is, there has to be a reckoning.
Laika, chemistboy, Sol, others...the British are an especially open minded people who enjoy learning and adopting new mores, memes and manners form other peoples. Mass immigration and rejection and replacement of the old Britain and it's national stock and identity need not be a part of that. When you force these things on a people - reactionary and violent responses are to be expected.
ArthurOliver
Thanks for the feedback ccb.
Auster is absolutely solid in his faith and in his political conviction, and in his rejection of the extreme liberal programme. And there are millions like him across America , and Europe too, who aren't with the programme.
There are also millions of Muslims in the West now, equally steadfast in their rejection of the transnational progressive agenda, and the havoc it wreaks on traditional cultures, and further, equally hostile to the Western tradition which Auster and millions and millions of others would preserve and cherish.
As I say, a conservative wouldn't have created this mess, but as mess there is, there has to be a reckoning.
Laika, chemistboy, Sol, others...the British are an especially open minded people who enjoy learning and adopting new mores, memes and manners form other peoples. Mass immigration and rejection and replacement of the old Britain and it's national stock and identity need not be a part of that. When you force these things on a people - reactionary and violent responses are to be expected.
Auster is absolutely solid in his faith and in his political conviction, and in his rejection of the extreme liberal programme. And there are millions like him across America , and Europe too, who aren't with the programme.
There are also millions of Muslims in the West now, equally steadfast in their rejection of the transnational progressive agenda, and the havoc it wreaks on traditional cultures, and further, equally hostile to the Western tradition which Auster and millions and millions of others would preserve and cherish.
As I say, a conservative wouldn't have created this mess, but as mess there is, there has to be a reckoning.
Laika, chemistboy, Sol, others...the British are an especially open minded people who enjoy learning and adopting new mores, memes and manners form other peoples. Mass immigration and rejection and replacement of the old Britain and it's national stock and identity need not be a part of that. When you force these things on a people - reactionary and violent responses are to be expected.
Wow, yet another emotinally charged buzz-phrase; I didn't think it possible.
Just what is "old Britain" precisely?
You're so full of rhetoric and joke phrases.
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