"British culture": destroyed by immigrants? Watch

cottonmouth
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i get embarrassed for others too. Even people i don't know. hen they trip over in town for example, i feel mortified for them! But i never get embarrassed myself....maybe i use it all up
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Lawz-
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(Original post by cottonmouth)
I know he mocks those who try to talk patois, and that the only funny thing about it is that Asian wannabe gangsters and wiggas seem to love hi. Maybe they really are just quite self-depracating. Naah, they're just stupid.
:rolleyes:

(Original post by cottonmouth)
I don't object to you all having a good old giggle about people who clearly arent Jamaican trying to talk like Jamaicans. But "dissing" the actual language/dialect rather than the people doing it is a bit wrong in my opinion.
So its off limits to make fun of someone's culture now?
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Lawz-
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:confused:
(Original post by cottonmouth)
Mark Steel, don't give up the day job. Jonny Vegas- be worried.
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Lawz-
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So basically its ok to make fun of white kids who copy rappers etc, but not black kids who copy rappers?

have I got it right?
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wacabac
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(Original post by Lawz-)
So basically its ok to make fun of white kids who copy rappers etc, but not black kids who copy rappers?

have I got it right?
Rap has its roots well established in the African-American community, so it is rather strange to see English white kids who have probably not seen much hardship in their life acting like African-American Rappers who have been brought up in the ghettos of America. Black kids regard black rappers as their role models, and can easily identify with them if they come from a similar background. It's quite amusing seeing white kids identifying themselves with someone from an entirely different race and culture.
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Lawz-
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(Original post by wacabac)
Rap has its roots well established in the African-American community, so it is rather strange to see English white kids who have probably not seen much hardship in their life acting like African-American Rappers who have been brought up in the ghettos of America.
What about black British Kids? Or Black middle class americans?

Is it ok to make fun of Black kids from the lower classes who take as role models white professionals?

(Original post by wacabac)
Black kids regard black rappers as their role models, and can easily identify with them if they come from a similar background. It's quite amusing seeing white kids identifying themselves with someone from an entirely different race and culture.
?? So you should only identify or idolise people of the same race?
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wacabac
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(Original post by Lawz-)
What about black British Kids? Or Black middle class americans?

Is it ok to make fun of Black kids from the lower classes who take as role models white professionals?

?? So you should only identify or idolise people of the same race?
If you want to make fun of someone, go ahead. No-one can stop you. It's not like you need permission to make fun, or be racist, sexist, or prejudiced, even discriminatory, in any way. However, don't expect it to be socially acceptable, and that people won't take offence to certain ridiculous attitudes. For example, your stubborn ignorance to such a discussion as this.

To me, it is plain why some find it amusing that white kids try to imitate rappers. Let me try to make it obvious to you too.

Rap emenated from African-American ghetto culture. Growing up in such a dangerous and destitute environment would force anyone to "toughen up". Rappers today are sold on this tough image; that they've survived the ghettos, and gone from rags to riches. They are role models for those who want to escape the ghettos. 50 Cent has been shot 9 times during his lifetime, something he flaunts and uses to add to his macho persona.

There is also the fact that throughout modern history, African-Americans have had to face such intolerance and adversity that, as a race, they can be proud of their strength. Black people in this country too have had to fight for their equality against those that seek to repress them. Not all black children in the US and UK may be able to identify with the ghetto upbringing, but they can certainly identify with the rapper's struggle to "make it" from the ghetto, as it is representative of their race's struggle as a whole.

Perhaps now you might begin to understand what people find so amusing about young white kids imitating rappers, they can't identify with the struggle for black equality, nor the incredibly tough ghetto upbringing, yet they flaunt their machismo like they've lived in such hard times.

I don't see why there is any reason to make fun of black kids who take as role models white professionals, it's just a petty argument about justified mocking. I think that you like to call for equality when it suits you, for example, you want to be justified in taking the mickey out of black kids because you think it's "equality" but you think it's unjustified for people to point the finger at racists. Makes you feel uncomfortable does it? Maybe you should face up to the fact that you might just be a tad racist.

As for your final question, I didn't say that people should only identify or idolise people of the same race. Idolise whoever you want, that is irrelevant. But I find it funny people who identify with someone of a different race, especially white kids in this country with american rappers.

"identify suggests a psychological empathy with the feelings or experiences of another person"

I don't see how white english kids can empathise at all with american rappers. Black kids, both in the UK and US, can empathise far better. Most, I'm sure, will have shared the common experience of racism. I'm sure that most can identify, on that point, but how can white english kids empathise? I find it pathetic how these "rudeboys" can strut around with the arrogance of Muhammed Ali and none of the substance behind it.
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Paul Bedford
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(Original post by wacabac)
Perhaps now you might begin to understand what people find so amusing about young white kids imitating rappers, they can't identify with the struggle for black equality, nor the incredibly tough ghetto upbringing, yet they flaunt their machismo like they've lived in such hard times.
I could understand that if it was remotely true, but hasn't a white kid from a tough background far more empathy with such a situation that a black kid from a middle or upper class background?

You make it sound like every black kid has had a tough background, and every white kid was born into the lap of luxury, yet over the last century or so there have been many people that come from completely opposite backgrounds.

Did the Irish, for example, not have to struggle for equality?

Did some one whose grandparent was born in a workhouse not have to struggle from a lower starting point than the grandson of a succesful black bussinessman?

Granted there may be more blacks than whites who can point to such struggles, but it does not negate the fact that there are a large number of whites who can understand and empathize with such a story, and a large number of blacks who can not.
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Lawz-
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(Original post by wacabac)
If you want to make fun of someone, go ahead. No-one can stop you.
Thats not the point. Although apparently you can be stopped.

(Original post by wacabac)
However, don't expect it to be socially acceptable, and that people won't take offence to certain ridiculous attitudes. For example, your stubborn ignorance to such a discussion as this.
My stubborn ignorance? Mind pointing it out or are you just doing vague accusations today?

(Original post by wacabac)
To me, it is plain why some find it amusing that white kids try to imitate rappers. Let me try to make it obvious to you too.
Fine.

(Original post by wacabac)
Rap emenated from African-American ghetto culture. Growing up in such a dangerous and destitute environment would force anyone to "toughen up". Rappers today are sold on this tough image; that they've survived the ghettos, and gone from rags to riches. They are role models for those who want to escape the ghettos. 50 Cent has been shot 9 times during his lifetime, something he flaunts and uses to add to his macho persona.
Thanks for the lesson in something I know a lot about...

(Original post by wacabac)
There is also the fact that throughout modern history, African-Americans have had to face such intolerance and adversity that, as a race, they can be proud of their strength. Black people in this country too have had to fight for their equality against those that seek to repress them. Not all black children in the US and UK may be able to identify with the ghetto upbringing, but they can certainly identify with the rapper's struggle to "make it" from the ghetto, as it is representative of their race's struggle as a whole.
Anything relevant coming here?

(Original post by wacabac)
Perhaps now you might begin to understand what people find so amusing about young white kids imitating rappers, they can't identify with the struggle for black equality, nor the incredibly tough ghetto upbringing, yet they flaunt their machismo like they've lived in such hard times.
Talk about ignorance.

1) Not all rap is about struggle
2) Not all rappers have hard hard lives - see Warren G for example.
3) White kids can have hard lives and be "tough" too
4) Wearing fubu and saying things like "yo" is not necessarily "flaunting machismo"

(Original post by wacabac)
I don't see why there is any reason to make fun of black kids who take as role models white professionals, it's just a petty argument about justified mocking.
No its a simple analogy. You think its ok to mock white kids because they act like black rappers, but not black kids who use a white professional as a role model.

That is a double standard pure and simple.

(Original post by wacabac)
I think that you like to call for equality when it suits you, for example, you want to be justified in taking the mickey out of black kids because you think it's "equality" but you think it's unjustified for people to point the finger at racists.
When have I ever said its unjustified to point the finger at racists?

Plase either substantiate your rather odd claims or shut the **** up.

(Original post by wacabac)
Makes you feel uncomfortable does it? Maybe you should face up to the fact that you might just be a tad racist.
How am I racist? Please tell me. Or are you just out to slander someone without any proof?

(Original post by wacabac)
As for your final question, I didn't say that people should only identify or idolise people of the same race. Idolise whoever you want, that is irrelevant. But I find it funny people who identify with someone of a different race, especially white kids in this country with american rappers.
Ohhhh so you DO find it funny if people identify with another race... so if a black kid DOES identify with a white guy - that's amusing or is it not? If a young black kid identified with say... Boris Becker - that would be odd to you?

(Original post by wacabac)
"identify suggests a psychological empathy with the feelings or experiences of another person"
yes?

(Original post by wacabac)
I don't see how white english kids can empathise at all with american rappers. Black kids, both in the UK and US, can empathise far better.
Bull****. Why cant white kids have ahard upbringing? Poverty? And since when was all rap about that anyway? Jesus ...

(Original post by wacabac)
Most, I'm sure, will have shared the common experience of racism.
Ok - so I have experienced racism - can I identify?

(Original post by wacabac)
I'm sure that most can identify, on that point, but how can white english kids empathise? I find it pathetic how these "rudeboys" can strut around with the arrogance of Muhammed Ali and none of the substance behind it.
You are a racist my friend - plain and simple.
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wacabac
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(Original post by Lawz-)
1) Not all rap is about struggle
2) Not all rappers have hard hard lives - see Warren G for example.
3) White kids can have hard lives and be "tough" too
4) Wearing fubu and saying things like "yo" is not necessarily "flaunting machismo"
1. No, but surely that's where the roots of rap are?
2. Agreed, but then perhaps they can't truly understand where the music comes from.
3. I completely agree, admittedly I haven't given enough credit to white kids who have had hard lives, but I doubt many have had to live having frequent exposure to guns and violence.
4. Made no comment about clothing, but looking tough is part of the culture.

(Original post by Lawz-)
No its a simple analogy. You think its ok to mock white kids because they act like black rappers, but not black kids who use a white professional as a role model.

That is a double standard pure and simple.
It's not a double standard just because you are can contrast white and black. I've justified my opinion, so tell me: what justification is there to mock black kids who regard a white professional as a role model?

(Original post by Lawz-)
When have I ever said its unjustified to point the finger at racists?
Here:

(Original post by Lawz-)
So you dotn think that people are called racist often when they are merely expressing a cultural view?

it happens all the time.

Of course racist is overused
But then I guess it's because we disagree on usage of racism.

(Original post by Lawz-)
Plase either substantiate your rather odd claims or shut the **** up.
Swearing isn't going to win an debate.

(Original post by Lawz-)
Ohhhh so you DO find it funny if people identify with another race... so if a black kid DOES identify with a white guy - that's amusing or is it not? If a young black kid identified with say... Boris Becker - that would be odd to you?
OK let me rephrase as I didn't mean to say that. I find it amusing when white kids I see day to day identify with black rappers as I know that they cannot empathise whatsoever. I don't find it funny when, in a general case, someone identifies with a person of another race, in some cases I think it is justified, in your example, perhaps a passion for tennis.

(Original post by Lawz-)
Bull****. Why cant white kids have ahard upbringing? Poverty? And since when was all rap about that anyway? Jesus ...
White kids can have a hard upbringing, but comparatively? Rap isn't all about that, but surely it's a big part?

(Original post by Lawz-)
Ok - so I have experienced racism - can I identify?
Well I dunno, do you really you've have had a common experience with the rap stars you admire?

(Original post by Lawz-)
You are a racist my friend - plain and simple.
And you talk about overusage of the word racist!
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Lawz-
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(Original post by wacabac)
1. No, but surely that's where the roots of rap are?


So? The roots of Jazz are in slavery - it doesn’t mean that you have to have been a slave to identify with it.

(Original post by wacabac)
2. Agreed, but then perhaps they can't truly understand where the music comes from.


Perhaps they can? Even then - many concepts in such music are universal and people can find some way and some level on which to relate to it.

(Original post by wacabac)
3. I completely agree, admittedly I haven't given enough credit to white kids who have had hard lives, but I doubt many have had to live having frequent exposure to guns and violence.


Not many black kids in the UK have either - relative to the rest of the world.

(Original post by wacabac)
4. Made no comment about clothing, but looking tough is part of the culture.


Being "tough" isnt the exclusive province of blacks or the poor. Many SAS are public school kids who are white... tough fits quite well as an adjective.

(Original post by wacabac)
It's not a double standard just because you are can contrast white and black. I've justified my opinion, so tell me: what justification is there to mock black kids who regard a white professional as a role model?


None really - aside from the fact that I don’t mind people poking fun at anything as long as it is in jest.

Besides, the double standard is in the fact that you have, I can only charitably assume, expressed yourself poorly. You kept referring to "white kids" when I assume what you meant is privileged and wealthy kids who haven’t suffered at all. Am I right?

If you simply meant WHITE kids one and all, then there is a double standard.



(Original post by wacabac)
Here

But then I guess it's because we disagree on usage of racism.


My point was that cultural matters, such as ethics, or the arts of a group are not what define them as a race in the way that the terms is so often employed. It is my belief that people use the term racist very often to imply a prejudice against ethnicity when non-exists. I do not see how that means I am against "pointing the finger" at racists.

(Original post by wacabac)
Swearing isn't going to win an debate.


I wasnt under the impression it would. But the baseless allegation that I am a racist irks me... I swear when Im angry... its not really that odd.

(Original post by wacabac)
OK let me rephrase as I didn't mean to say that. I find it amusing when white kids I see day to day identify with black rappers as I know that they cannot empathise whatsoever. I don't find it funny when, in a general case, someone identifies with a person of another race, in some cases I think it is justified, in your example, perhaps a passion for tennis.


Granted it is amusing if people IN GENERAL try to pretend that they associate with the "tough ghetto" image of rappers if they have no such experiences - but I don’t see how that applies specifically or exclusive to whites. Blacks can equally pretend to identify, and whites can equally identify for good reason.

However, the point remains that people can identify with many aspects of rap culture, and to suffer gun crime and the like is a small part of it, to see it as the majority of it is narrow minded in my opinion.


(Original post by wacabac)
White kids can have a hard upbringing, but comparatively? Rap isn't all about that, but surely it's a big part?


Some of it is, some of it isnt. However I think that it would be better to express yourself better. Your point isnt about WHITE people, its about people with no basis to associate.


(Original post by wacabac)
Well I dunno, do you really you've have had a common experience with the rap stars you admire?


I dont really identify with any of them... but I have had friends murdered, and I have suffered racism.


(Original post by wacabac)
And you talk about overusage of the word racist!


The literal meaning of what you have said comes across as racist.


Are we going to address your assertion that I am racist?
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nic_knock
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(Original post by naivesincerity)
Wa G'wan Raasklaatz! 'ear me now, dis how we run tings........and the like
Isnt that how Ali G speaks?
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Strauss
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How many generations does a person's family need to have been in Britain for in order for them to be considered "British" by you - 2? 5? 10? 50? Whatever it is, it's just an arbitrary number.
I'd say that your family has to have been around at least since the conquest. I suppose we could be lenient towards huguenot families too, like the du Mauriers, so that's anyone in Britain before the Edict of Nantes could qualify. Happy to help
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all red and ermine
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British Culture is not destroyed by immigrants. I feel that they enrich and develop the culture of our country. I am the grandchild of an immigrant and I feel that we have contributed and integrated successfully within this fab country. So, to say that the culture of this country which has roots in many different cultures (originating by immigrants throughout the history of our country) is being destroyed is not true. It is developing and changing, and change scares people. The fear of the unknown (in terms of immigrants) heavily influences thoughts about the destruction of our culture, which is, I think, unfounded in logic.
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SolInvictus
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Much of rap these days has nothing to do with "struggle". It is used to spread and glorify a culture of violence, criminality and snti-social behavior. Rap started out as a form of common entertainment in certain communities. However, muc of it now is nothing more than a virulent vehicle for a culture that brings down society.
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British Patriot
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No British Culture Was Not Destroyed by immigrants, it was developed into a better culture. We understand these people and are obviously the only ones helping them. Where else can u get free medical treatment no where. Not even the BIG CIVILISED INDUSTRIAL GIANT USA
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Lawz-
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(Original post by British Patriot)
Where else can u get free medical treatment no where.
Aside from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most of western Europe and a few other assorted goodies around the globe you mean?
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Laika
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(Original post by SolInvincitus)
Much of rap these days has nothing to do with "struggle". It is used to spread and glorify a culture of violence, criminality and snti-social behavior. Rap started out as a form of common entertainment in certain communities. However, muc of it now is nothing more than a virulent vehicle for a culture that brings down society.
Maybe that's a symptom of desperate people turning to crime and fame to succeed because they don't see any other option to escape their struggle.
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Jonatan
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Yes of course, UK culture is being ruined by the extreme masses of ethnic minorities who currently reside in the country ( 8% of the population ). There is already almost a minority of whites ( 92% ) and if this out of controll immigration continues the UK as we know it will soon be gone.

I mean seriously. If 8% of the population is enough to bring down an entire culture, then quite frankly I would say that it doesn't exactly appear as if the remaining 92% care particularly much about it. Besides, if UK culture is changing, it is more in the direction of the US than the countries from which asylum seekers typically originate. Heck, even if we were to accept another 5 million immigrants from third world countries (more than Norway's collected population ) the number of non-whites in the UK would just barely exceed 15%.

But no, obviously we have to work hard to keep any more people out, and preferably expel the ones that are already here.
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Agent Smith
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(Original post by SolInvincitus)
Much of rap these days has nothing to do with "struggle". It is used to spread and glorify a culture of violence, criminality and snti-social behavior. Rap started out as a form of common entertainment in certain communities. However, muc of it now is nothing more than a virulent vehicle for a culture that brings down society.
I believe you are confusing the terms "rap" and "50 Cent".
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