Insulting religion...

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But why insult in the first place?

why not ?

people make fun of, parody, mock, caricature - ideologies, religions, worldviews, philosophical and political beliefs... whoever feels insulted should ask himself why exactly

truth, quite often, is revealed via mockery

it's the well-known "Emperor's new clothes" effect

Reply 61

mariachi

Original post by squishy123

Actually, it's an exchange of ideas or viewpoints.

Why criticize when you can sit down together and interact with other people?

it's next to impossible not to criticize Islam

this doesn't mean not being available for interacting with Muslims

Reply 62

Redolent

Original post by squishy123

Actually, it's an exchange of ideas or viewpoints.

That's called discussion

You're not the authority on when something is an insult and when something isn't. Nobody is. You're not the authority on when something is appropriate to say and when something isn't. Again, nobody is.

So what's the solution to that? You take your hands off altogether and say, "Alright, as long as you're not causing harm to anybody, you are permitted to say what you please."
You then hope that through free and open debate, those who have nothing better to do than mindlessly insult will learn the errors of their ways. And if they don't, you just grow some spine and deal with it, not fight to silence them. Freedom of expression is more important than your idea that nobody should be able to say anything that offends you.

Reply 63

squishy123

Original post by The Epicurean

Where do we draw the line between criticism and insult? If a someone were to make a valid criticism of Islam and the Quran academically, then that person would be accused of insulting the religion.

Loads of people criticize Islam everyday yet no one goes bananas over it.

However, the only times when Muslims really went on a rampage over stuff like this was the Danish Cartoons. Now, was that a criticism or an insult?

Same with this video. Was this video mocking Prophet Muhammad or was it criticizing him?

Or for example example, Salman Rushdie and his novel The Satanic Verses. He did no go about with intention to insult Islam, but many muslims were insulted and accused him of blasphemy and unbelief. Then he had a fatwa put on his life and also many people will killed as a reaction to this.

But he tried to attribute something to Muhammad which wasn't true hence, people got angry.

As a real life example, if you watch the X Factor, you sometimes see people who come on stage and can't sing. When the judges then offer their criticism, the person flips out and wont accept it. They then make themselves look foolish by their overreactions.

But that's criticism, not insults. If the judges said: "You can't sing", then that's criticism but if they said "You can't sing because you're Chinese" then that is an insult.

Reply 64

Nathan.Boyd

Funny how no one cared when this episode aired on one of America's biggest networks:

Seems its only insulting to draw Muhammad when Muslims feel like smashing things up and killing Americans.

Reply 65

Kardy

Muslims have overreacted in the past, and are doing that now. How to draw the line between an insult and a criticism is very difficult. An insult is only an insult if a group or individual is offended by a particular criticism. That brings up the main question here, are muslims too easily offended?

In my opinion, no. I am a muslim, and I don't think muslims are too easily offended. I defend their right to actually be offended. However, after offence overreacting, being violent, killing innocent representatives of the "west" is unacceptable. I won't lecture, but Islam does not teach violence after offence. One of the fundamental principles in Islam is being patient, perservering and striving against all oppression, insults, criticisms etc. This is what Islam teaches. If only those in the media spotlight, mainly the middle east, would pick up their Qur'an and books, instead of their bricks and grenades every time they are insulted. This is not the Islamic manner.

I know.

Original post by Integral

Do you know what 'criticise' actually means?

knock: find fault with; express criticism of; point out real or perceived flaws; "The paper criticized the new movie"; "Don't knock the food--it's free"

criticize: act as a critic; "Those who criticize others often are not perfect, either"

By very definition, a debate involves criticism.

A criticism is when someone passes judgement on something, right?

And a debate is when people discuss something, right?

Do you get it now? A debate may be initiated by a criticism, but when people start to discuss the criticism, it turns into a debate...

Reply 68

squishy123

Original post by mariachi

why not ?

Not really an answer, mariachi. I'm surprised your standards have slipped...

people make fun of, parody, mock, caricature - ideologies, religions, worldviews, philosophical and political beliefs... whoever feels insulted should ask himself why exactly

Maybe they should ask themselves why they are mocking in the first place if it won't bring them any benefit? Will it make them feel better? Will they get more money? Would people believe them?

truth, quite often, is revealed via mockery

Like?

it's the well-known "Emperor's new clothes" effect

And here I was led to believe that it was just an observation made.

Reply 69

squishy123

Original post by mariachi

it's next to impossible not to criticize Islam

Why? because of the barbaric Sharia law. Is that really what people are still complaining about? Is that the only "flaw" that people find in Islam?

this doesn't mean not being available for interacting with Muslims

Huh. You'll have to stop using double negatives. It's making my head spin. :smile:

Reply 70

marcusfox

Original post by squishy123

Presuming what I am going to say. Wow. You're psychic, NOT.

Yet that is what you believe, or you wouldn't have brought it up as an example.

Original post by squishy123

You said it.

Alternatively, you can tell us what you really meant by it, other than the plainest explanation, that I have already given

Original post by squishy123

For some reason, Hutsis and Tutus come to the forefront of my mind.

ITIYM Hutus and Tutsis. That's what happens in backwards parts of the world. And you wonder why we don't want to import backward cultures into the UK...

Original post by squishy123

It seems you haven't answered the question yet...

The question of what to do when someone insults your mum? LOL, OK.

There are many things you can do in response, such as making an equally offensive retort, bursting into tears, or stamping your feet, but ignoring it is probably the best.

Of course you don't have to react in any way whatsoever. Wanting to hit someone for what you believe is an insult is a childish way to behave.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 71

squishy123

Original post by Redolent

That's called discussion

Collins:

— n
1. a formal discussion, as in a legislative body, in which opposing arguments are put forward
2. discussion or dispute

Thesauras:

Definition: discussion of issues; consideration

You're not the authority on when something is an insult and when something isn't. Nobody is. You're not the authority on when something is appropriate to say and when something isn't. Again, nobody is.

Okay. You've told me who isn't. Now tell me who is because there's certain laws floating about restricting my "freedom of speech". I'd like to know who put constraints there...

So what's the solution to that? You take your hands off altogether and say, "Alright, as long as you're not causing harm to anybody, you are permitted to say what you please."
You then hope that through free and open debate, those who have nothing better to do than mindlessly insult will learn the errors of their ways. And if they don't, you just grow some spine and deal with it, not fight to silence them. Freedom of expression is more important than your idea that nobody should be able to say anything that offends you.

How do you "debate" with a person who doesn't want to debate?

Reply 72

kunoichi

Original post by de_monies

People say that religion shouldn't be free of being insulted, but you're not exactly allowed to be anti-Semitic.... and people who think that it's OK to insult Muslims,but not Jews are deeply hypocritical and have double standards

If however you think that both the religions can be insulted or none can, then of course the double standards don't exist however the public does seem to have double standards when it comes to religion

The thing about being anti Semitic is that it is based around the dislike and distrust of the jewish race not their religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

So yeah no ones stopping anyone being anti-Judaism

Reply 73

squishy123

Original post by marcusfox

Yet that is what you believe, or you wouldn't have brought it up as an example.

Again, trying to presume what I am or what I am not going to say.

Alternatively, you can tell us what you really meant by it, other than the plainest explanation, that I have already given

No, I'll rather leave that to you seeing as how you know everything before I even happen to write it.

ITIYM Hutus and Tutsis. That's what happens in backwards parts of the world. And you wonder why we don't want to import backward cultures into the UK...

So people don't kill each other in the UK? Must be so peaceful here then...

And if people start believing it and broadcasting it to the whole world and then others start passing judgement which you then come to hear of it every single day of your life. Are you sure that won't make your blood boil or you won't want to lash out at the next person that says it?

Reply 74

Integral

Original post by squishy123

Did you read what you just replied to?

Reply 75

Redolent

Original post by squishy123

Okay. You've told me who isn't. Now tell me who is because there's certain laws floating about restricting my "freedom of speech". I'd like to know who put constraints there...

Idiots did. Idiots who don't understand why free expression is so important. Do you want to count yourself among those people?

There are some grey areas. For example - you don't commit fraud, you don't act viciously racist in public, you don't make death threats and you don't mock the dead at their funeral. The reasons for these are obvious. Religion on the other hand is a choice and people who don't agree with that choice are perfectly entitled to decide for themselves what they want to say about it.

How do you "debate" with a person who doesn't want to debate?

You don't, you just ignore them and get on with your life. It isn't hard.

Reply 76

squishy123

But now it's your opinion that the criticism that you are dishing out in regards to criticism and debate is criticism. :smile:

Reply 77

squishy123

Original post by Integral

Did you read what you just replied to?

Uh huh.

Did it not make sense to you?

I'm sorry about that. BTW, you look gorgeous :wink:

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 78

TheHistoryStudent

The UN should tell Turkey to **** off... what right do they have (or any other Muslim country/religious community) to request the rest of the world curb the freedom of speech in the name of their bearded man in the sky? A basic human right? Sure freedom of speech allows people to offend, and I myself do not agree that it's a particularly good idea to insult others, but at the end of the day you should have the freedom to do it (provided you are not spreading hatred and/or intolerance) and to curb it in the name of keeping one group of people happy (or alternatively, to keep them from violent outburst...) is perverse and simply wrong. Such a thing would bear little difference in my opinion, from re-introducing blasphemy laws, except for all religions, rather than just one.

Religious people who get offended by others need to learn that their belief system is not universal, it is not worthy of respect from non-believers, and in order to get along peacefully with the rest of us they should probably just practice it privately rather than make it a public issue...

/Rant.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 79

squishy123

Original post by Redolent

Idiots did. Idiots who don't understand why free expression is so important. Do you want to count yourself among those people?

I don't understand why free expression is so important to you.

There are some grey areas. For example - you don't commit fraud, you don't act viciously racist in public, you don't make death threats and you don't mock the dead at their funeral. The reasons for these are obvious. Religion on the other hand is a choice and people who don't agree with that choice are perfectly entitled to decide for themselves what they want to say about it.