Boxing

Malignaggi is supposedly the toughest out of that lot (apart from Bradley), and he's taken him square on after Paulies good win to Diaz.

Paulie offers the key to better fighters - not Maidana.

And I do think Khan will clear up. The only thing that could wreck his challenge is power - and Paulie doesn't exactly have that in abundance.

And the hell are you on? of course junior lightights existed back then, 130's weren't classified under specific categories is all the difference until the inception of boxing organizations like the IBF 30 years later or so. I was being accurate about the weight he was in during the time because he might have been considered a middle weight, but he was really, now, a super middle weight during the late 50's.

How is this relevant to manny not being at on sugar rays league?

Oh really? Why don't you assert that to a career boxer and see how hard it is just to win an amateur boxing title. It's easy to spread the titles to different divisions now, but the fighters and competition doesn't change, mate.

I never said he 'had' 173 amateur fights , read again please :
"173 (amateur fights not included)" these were his 'wins'. he had 200 fights in total.

i said 6 not 5 championships, and notice how once again, you have seem to skim my post rather than read it entirely; I said championship for ray and 'world championship' for manny.

so what's left? How far does manny stand behind sugar ray? I simply consider manny to be on sugar rays league, your vitriol comes from not reading properly. Don't make assumptions just by skimming details, look at them, read them. I'm sorry if you didn't get them the first time, ill make it a bit more clear next time.

I love how Manny gets whooped by Marquez twice, steps up and beats a ****** Diaz, a weight drained and shot Oscar, a post-prime Hatton, a post-prime Miguel Cotto and a B-level Joshua Clottey and suddenly he's in the same league as Sugar Ray Robinson.

Of course it's easy for a decent fighter to win a world title when there are 5 titles and 17 or 18 weight classes. Look at David Diaz, Nikolay Valuev, Felix Sturm, Isaac Hlatshwayo, Jan Zaveck..

they all won "world" titles in some of boxings most historically rich divisions. Promoters can buy there fighters shots at world titles now, it's just that simple. A guy like Sturm can cherry pick average competition his entire career (which he has done) and when he gets beaten by an average fighter, that fighter will precede to do the exact same thing.

Haha, Manny is not in Sugar Rays league. Look at the level of opposition that Robinson beat, it simply is not even close:

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino)
(Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson)
(Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl)
(Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson)
(George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins)
(Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood)
(Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron)
(Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch)
(Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958)
(#1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

another thing, I said the following too:

The issue here is that you're classifying the divisions by the early 1930's standards. I'm looking at the record here and looking at the weight disparity and classifying the weights by our new refined boxing weight division.

Those latter belts were won at this weight by robinson: Tommy Bell-146lbs, Jake Lamotta--155/160lbs; Gene Fullmer-160lbs; Robert Villemain-159 lbs.

These weight's aren't all different? Show me these '2' infamous weight titles because I feel it's just a issue of semantics when we speak of 'championships title belts.

homie, sugar ray lost plenty of decision fights just like manny, you really haven't seen the reels i've seen so you speak very subjectivity and superficial, therefore, i can only tell you that it's a matter of opinion.

I really don't see manny as someone who is at par with sugar ray, but like china with the usa, manny is on brink of a new league--sugar rays legaue. By todays standards, yes, we can say that there's a lot more safety, and less crude than it was 40-50 yrs ago, however, boxing is just as competitive as it always was, even more so now, just a lot more comfortable and bearable. Like i stated before, style (technique) determine fights more so than a boxers abilities. Joshua was overwhelmed by manny for godsakes, it was totally obvious from the get-go. Marquez is a great boxer, and though he didn't get the decision, he still had his match, and to me, he didn't get credit for those rounds that he rightfully won,this doesn't mean that manny was any less a great boxer p4p as sugar ray was. He's on his league to me for beating a decision over marquez.

Just so you know, srr was a great businessman as well, so I can speculate as you can when it comes to conspiracy.
My point is that you're placing SRR in a position of infallibility,and impunity simply because you really do admire the 'past' as if it was a time of innocence, and candor when it came to business, drugs, and or illegals activities like 'cheating' during the fight.

I respect SRR as a boxer and i could never state that manny was a 'better' boxer than he was since it's obviously absurd to say so, im simply saying that as a young fighter, especially in this stressful time in boxing histroy, manny stands out like a sore thumb with puss, and it's time to recognize that not for the media hype, but because of his record.

wait wait... i can do this too!

your point is taken though, granted, the earlier years of boxing were much more laden with competitors;however, how do you know personally that all those boxers (including the amateurs) were any different than those manny fought during his amateur fight years?
This is left to a priori's, and I'l tell you this much, I've seen some late reels on SRR, those boxers he fought weren't at all boxers i'd consider 'chest players' (aka elite)..

I've seen every Sugar Ray Robinson fight available on the internet. Hell I've even seen a 30 second amateur clip. Robinson lost decisions after his prime ended (which for arguements sake we'll say was after his first retiremenet in 1952). The decision losses came after the first Randy Turpin fight, but few people were going to decision Robinson in his prime years. Not even the first LaMotta fight was a good decision.

Boxing isn't as competitive as it used to be because there simply aren't as many great boxers and the boxers today don't have the same hunger they did in the 40s and the 50s.

Everybody wants to be the best but the moment they get to the top they're content to just sit there and defend titles against mandatories or they stop training and fall off. Like Hagler said, "It's hard to get up and train in the morning when you're sleeping on silk pillows" and that's the sort of attitude that many of todays so called elite fighters show.

Back in Robinson's day, heavyweight contenders were still being paid $1500 for bouts against other top contenders.

Today guys like Clinton Woods and Tavoris Cloud will take home $200,000 minimum (and that's not taking into account any of the TV money).

Boxing is not as competitive now as it was 60 or so years ago, fighters have so many different ways they can get to the top that it doesn't really make it as competitive as it was.

In the 40s, 50s and 60s Robinson could make it to the top by beating ONE champion, and he would have to fight the top contenders below him to remain champion. Right now a guy like Zsolt Erdei defended his WBO light heavyweight title something like 14 times and managed to do that without fighting any of the following top light heavyweight fighters: Antonio Tarver, Bernard Hopkins, Joe Calzaghe, Roy Jones, Glen Johnson, Clinton Woods, Chad Dawson, Tomasz Adamek, Adrian Diaconu, Eric Harding, Tavoris Cloud, Gabriel Campillo, Yusaf Mack, Julio Cesar Gonzalez..

Don't tell me boxing is more competitive nowadays when you have guys like Erdei fighting in his hometown defending his alphabet world title against bums and scrubs. You think Robinson would have gotten away with fighting the likes of Victor Troise, Charley Burns and Oliver White as legitimate world title defences? Hell no. He had to defend his strap against all time great fighters like Fullmer, Basilio, Zale, Graziano, LaMotta, Servo, Zivic, Turpin, Olson, Gavilan, Angott, Maxim and so on..

I'm placing Sugar Ray Robinson where he belongs and that's as the greatest fighters in history. Greater than Ezzard Charles, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Joe Gans, Sam Langford, Sugar Ray Leonard, Ricardo Lopez, Pernell Whitaker..

His record is solid, but it isn't great. I'd take Pernell Whitaker's resume over Manny Pacquiao's anyday. Head to head and record by the way.

Umm, I didn't copy and paste his Boxrec record, I listed all of the notable opponents and there notable achievements in brackets. Mine wasn't just some copy and paste job you know. Actually read it.

I've seen Manny Pacquiao and I've seen Sugar Ray Robinson. I've watched all the fights available for both men and I'll tell you this, Robinson was the better boxer and his competition impressed me more.I can't take a Clottey over a Fullmer, a Cotto over a Basilio, a Hatton over a LaMotta and so on.. I think obviously you have to take into consideration that Robinson fought 200 fights and obviously there are going to be scrubs on that record (much like a Chavez or a Duran did when padding their record) but looking into Robinson's record it's easily the most incredible record in the history of the sport.

On another note:

Tommy Bell-146lbs--- This was his weight during his fight with tommy bell for a championship, which isn't middleweight in todays classifying standards, as you know im placing them in order to truly see how many belts he's won in different weight classes.

Jake Lamotta--155/160lbs;
Gene Fullmer-160lbs;----- We can say that he was in the middle weight fighting both jake and gene.

Robert Villemain-159 lbs--- believe it or not, he was 158-159 during the time which wasn't considered middleweight, it's considered welter weight, even during those times.

Now add the other 2 (or 3 if you check what his weight was during his fight during his feather weight years) and you'll see that it's 5-6 divisions he's been champion in, and i wasn't mistaken bing. The problem is that you leave everything for another (person) to inquire and wait for it to be stamped: "certified by boxing associational experts." Before you believe something to be accurate or objectively true.

k, up to opinion, as long as you acknowledge that SSR lost decisions based on judges and not you.

again, this is purely speculative on your part, you can say so 10000 times, doesn't make it true. I know of 3 career boxers who are moving up in amateurs and find it overwhelming, even for guys who've been boxing since i remember them as tots. I have that plus the fact that the tricks and business practices, along with technological innovations, have mobilized the world to push the envelope, whereas you believe boxers in the past had no choice but to push their bodies to the maximum to push that envelop, and that, again, is purely subjective and can be argued until some inquiry has already been done to solidify the idea that boxers of the past were more competitive than boxers today.

Yea, because silk pillows didn't exist in the 30's, or any other luxaries for boxers who fought hard. As if the psychology of relaxation is a lot more accommodated by electronic gizmos. Pure opinion.

yea, and in america, a DOLLAR was worth a DOLLAR!
American money in the 40's 50's was the most valuable of its time.
1500 was't chump money, oh man, please you know little of this portion, im not even going there.

Trust me when i say that fighters made a HELL of alot more moneyy in the 40's and 50's if you were to translate the amount into todays green back money.

pure speculation, i can't argue about it since I don't like speculating on mere empirical data.

DUDE, business in those days was just a pessimistic as it is today, ray didn't fight a lot of good boxers who were deemed great contenders for sugar ray. If you'd really weren't under the pure suggestive favor of the legend of sugar ray, you'd know about a contemporary of his who was said to be a lot more than just an exceptional contender-- his name was Charlie Burley. Robins camp didn't want to give charlie a championship fight for good reason, and if not for his misfortunes, you would have held known of him, and treated him with the same reverence you do SRR. It's facts like this that are shrouded in the annals of boxing, and which compel me to reevaluate the supposed 'greatest boxers' of all time. Hell, even sugar ray leonard was known to duck aaron pryor, if you knew who that was.

My point is that, the contenders that robinson had can't all be held as 'great contenders', rather, push overs (pawns) that robinson knew he would be badgered about in the press if he didn't fight them due to the great expectation of his image during the time where a 'middle class' champion (as you say) was the quintessential division man to conquer for all contenders-- so the attention would undoubtedly be on sugar ray more than the distribution of champions nowadays in sub-categories in any major weight division.

Like i mentioned, todays business practices are more cynical and even harder to make because we both know that image and money are synonymous with a boxers 'greatness', and though i see your point in the lazy attitudes todays boxers SEEMINGLY undertake due to (in your opinion) 'innovations in technology to spread their names faster and further; I seriously don't believe that todays P4P champions CAN'T beat the contenders that are ranked below them, and/or begging for fight with them. I just think that boxing business has become a lot more protectionist because, like floyd's exploiting in the business part of boxing, fights that he could easily win, can be avoided for self-preservation issues, and taken as last resort only if great pay-days fights aren't plausible. Your issue seems to be in the truly romantic sense that great boxers fight boxers; whereas, im explaining that this still exist, it's just that boxers today tend to chase a more materialistic objective (easier popularity and money). I just want you to understand that the past was just as similar to the present with the exceptions of gear, and rules which can be reverted and be easily adjustable to as you've seen boxers after 12 rounds assert in their ring-interviews that they could continue till 15 rounds if they could.

Btw, in the states, the press is even more stressful on boxers to push for a fight contract then it is in europe.

Well, im sorry to hear this, i believe
greatness' isn't concentrated in one person; i believe it's distributed. Srr was one of the best, and probably the best of his era, but the greatest of all times is very arbitrary to state. I'd say he's in his own great league, doesn't mean nobody else can enter it at any time. As you saw, bernard hopkins has entered the hall of fame (if not) by equating his defenses to his idol SRR.

k, i'd leave it up to speculation, I'd put aaron pryor and pernell at par. A great fight it would be.

so did I, those were manny's notable opponents, and im sure you wrote that all by yourself.

How many times do i have to tell you that I'm not equating ray robinson to manny and saying they're equally achieved boxers by comparison?

You're prejudice is not allowing you to get off that notion. I'm simply saying that Manny is on the brink of sugar ray's league, and of course you're going to disagree because your reverence for SRR is obviously strong, and impenetrable by any real inquiries by others to state otherwise. I wish you'd do a candid re-evaluation of both boxers and think how much more similarities in their records they have to other boxer contenders. Thought there might be some unknowns out there that might just have surpassed both of them (i've heard of a legendary boxer in dominican republic with over 500 fights), we know of these two in particular as prominent champions.

Of course I knew he won titles in the amateur weights, but nobody includes amateur titles when talking about a fighters achievements. Not unless it was olympic. For the love of God Roy Jones won amateur titles at junior welterweight, welterweight and junior middleweight but nobody calls him a 7 weight world champion.

He beat Tommy Bell at welterweight for the world welterweight title, with both guys weighing in under the welterweight limit of 147. What are you trying to get at?

Haha, not it wasn't. The welterweight division has always been a maximum weight of 147lbs and the middleweight of 160lbs. He fought Villemain weighing 8lbs over the welterweight limit and 5lbs under the middleweight limit. That makes it a middleweight fight.

I'm not too sure you understand what you're saying here. Robinson won welterweight and middleweight titles, plus he won lightweight and feather amateur tournaments (which mean nothing when talking about professional careers by the way). Stop trying to create divisions that never existed at the time.

Robinson lost decisions years after his very peek. He also won decisions against great fighters years after his prime. Manny got whooped in his prime by Marquez twice. Manny loses to fighters who lead with the right hand and can actually counter punch. Excellent timing, lead right hands and counter punching beats Pacquiao. That's why they avoided a third Marquez fight and that's why they don't want the Mayweather fight (haha @ the BS needle excuse).

What? I was using that as an example of how boxers lose hunger. Boxers today get huge paydays, even B-level contenders earn a solid amount of money. That's my point.

The $1500 dollar example was Jimmy Young in the 70s. He'd fight for under $1000 sometimes. Don't tell me what I do and don't know because I clearly know more than you.

Trust you? haha, you can't be serious. Fighters in the 40s and 50s earnt piddles compared to what they earn today. That goes for EVERY SINGLE sport. Footballers in the early 40s and 50s played for chump change, now the average premier league salary is something like £35,000. You had to be a superstar to earn a lot of money in the 40s and 50s. Especially given the fact that the 40s was a time of post-war economy.

Robinson didn't fight Charley Burley, big deal. Robinson's team used the money excuse but the fact is Burley was fighting for chump change in bingo halls whilst Robinson was one of the biggest sports stars on earth.
Besides, that's one contender but he sure as hell fought the rest. I just listed you about 10 fighters that Zsolt Erdei has managed to avoid in about a 3 or 4 year period. Now why don't you go ahead and give me a list
of 10 fighters that Robinson managed to avoid throughout his entire career. You won't be able to do it. He fought every contender and every champion. He moved up 15lbs and fought an ATG light heavyweight in Joey
Maxim and was one round from winning.

Sugar Ray Leonard ducked more than just Aaron Pryor (and for the record I know who Aaron Pryor is...).

I gave you a breakdown of Robinson's notable opponents. You obviously didn't read it.

I agree that boxing has become a lot more protectionist. The sole reason for that is the fans of the sport today. Take Kelly Pavlik for example, huge hype and HBO invested big bucks in him and hyped him to the high heavens. Hopkins beats him silly for 12 rounds and now nobody wants to know him. Why should promoters have to risk their cash cows by throwing them in the ring with a dangerous contender knowing that a loss would mean the fighters becomes seriously devalued in the eyes of the public? In the golden era of the sport losing didn't mean the end of somebodys career, it pretty much does now. Fighter are written off after one lost, it's silly and annoys me. Look at Chris Arreola (fat useless lump) had a big following, lost to Vitali Klitschko and now nobody wants to know him. That's just the way boxing works nowadays, it sucks but that's just the way it is.

Hopkins is yet to enter the hall of fame, if he does decide to retire his main accomplishment will be breaking the middleweight record (held by Carlos Monzon) of title defences and doing what he great Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't do and that's jump from middleweight to light heavyweight and beat the champ. Not that Robinson wasn't good enough but the heat just got to him. Speaks volumes about the mans greatness when he can beat an ATG light heavyweight in Joey Maxim (well, not beat.. but be a round from beating) despite only really being a welterweight/middleweight.

I like Pryor he's a great fighter but there will always be that mystery about him in his first fight with Arguello.

No you didn't, you just copied and pasted his boxing record. You didn't give me any details like I gave you.

And I'm telling you that Manny is not on the brink of entering the same league as Sugar Ray Robinson.

Manny's accomplishments are becoming overrated, people forget that he was a teenager when he started and has just entered his physical prime (which starts in the late 20s and ends in your early 30s.. in most cases) and is now at the weight that he's most comfortable at. Hence the maximised punching power, speed, quick feet.. it's all because he doesn't have to drain himself to make the weight and is now fighting at his favourite fighting weight. He walks around at close to 160lbs right now, the sort of weight that quite a lot of welters walk around at.

Don't get me wrong, Manny is a great fighter but it takes more than a few wins to have you thrown in the same class as SRR. He's going to need to stick around and show the boxing world what he can do for a few more years.. if he calls it a day after losing to Mayweather then how can he be ranked in the same class as Robinson? If he beats Mayweather and picks up another win over a world class fighter then he can be on the brink of enterting Robinson's league but right now.. no.