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Grammar Schools watch

  • View Poll Results: Do you support the existence of Grammar schools?
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    (Original post by amywalters)
    Lets turn this around. Say, we wanted to demolish comprehensive schools, but it was a really great one that you went to.. How would you feel? How would you feel that your school was being banned for the sake of some other peoples futures? - I cannot possibly see the sense in that, or how you'd be prepared to do whats best for everyone else, if it isnt whats best for you!
    The fact that I could see the demoralising effects of those who felt they had 'failed' at the age of 11, despite my own supposed 'good fortune' speaks about the sort of person I am.

    A totally different one to that which you seem to be.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Thanks for your honesty, LH.

    It certainly debunks what all the pro-grammar posters on this thread presume about the efficacy of comprehensive education in comparison to their own!
    I wasn't aware limited anecdotal evidence was a valid substitute for concrete fact.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    That would be quite an interesting experiment actually.

    yawn - it's statistics like that which would be useful, not how many people get 5 A*-C grades at GCSE.
    I reckon its common sense, though. If you are middle-class, its likely, very likely, that your parents had good educations, to get their well-paid jobs. You are undoubtably going to pass on that sort of education ethic to your children, making education a priority. If you are poor, living on benefits, it is LIKELY, NOT certain, that you didn't have a very good education, and therefore won't necessarily push you children to do well at school, with a midframe like" bloody school never did anything for me" rather than" look at all we have, ebcause we did well in school". Your parents have a masisve impact on whether you will try hard in school or not- do yours check your homework diariies a lot, do they turn up for parents evenings, do they help with your work, do they make you do you homework before going out to socialise? Most middle- class kids would say yes. A startling amount of poorer kids could say no. Now, middle-class kids in good areas will go to the nearest school, in the catchment area. They are all therefore concentrated into one school, so that school will do wll on the tables. Poorer kids will all be concentrated into one school too, hence the bad scores on tables. Obviosuly, thee are poor kids who do well, and wealthy kids who dont, i'm talking generally.

    So, if you put all of the kids who go to Crapton comp in Brixton in Eton, and put all Etonians into Craton comp, all that would happen is the eton would plummet, an crapton would shoot up.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    The fact that I could see the demoralising effects of those who felt they had 'failed' at the age of 11, despite my own supposed 'good fortune' speaks about the sort of person I am.

    A totally different one to that which you seem to be.
    Ah but that doesn't answer the question asked.

    Also, just to clarify - did you enjoy your time at the grammar school you were at?
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    It is not the grammar schools themselves I dislike, but the fact that children are separated out at such a young age by virtue of apparant intelligence; indeed such byzantine beaucracy as the eleven plus did not illustrate whether an eleven year old was intelligent or not but merely whether he was mature enough to sit a test at the age of eleven.

    Grammar schools were originally designed such that financially disadvantaged yet intelligent youngsters had access to an education, however nowadays everyone is entitled to and indeed receives an education regardless of means.

    The trauma and subsequent mental scar of failing I believe far outweighs any benefits they may have for a few.
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    But you are not seeing it from the other side of the fence - thats what life is about! You wont always get what you want - when you apply for a job, there will always be chances that you wont get it, but its experience. It is a young age, you are right, but the fact remains that you will not be able to change the age that secondary education begins, and therefore not be able to change that people will need to have an examination to see if they can cope with the type of environment the school has at which the exam is for.

    The exams arent just for the schools benefit, its for the benefit of the student - they dont want to be overloaded with work they cant do. I have 3/4 hours of homework to do a night, even if someone with a challenging intelligence is already struggling to understand the concepts, then he or she with a low intellect will definately struggle with the amount of concepts there are and the time you have to do it - its not all a breeze.
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    (Original post by preparationH)
    That is not true at all, in all of my option classes I was surrounded by mostly C/D students, very few of them liked the subject and only chose it because we had to chose 4 subjects. They also more often than not tried to make life hell for the people that were trying to get As. Even in my higher maths class.
    Did you go to a really rough school or something?

    I don't mean any offence, it's just quite different to my own experience!

    At the comp I went to, although there were lower ability students in a couple of my option classes, it didn't effect me at all. For example, in Drama there was a good mix of people from all abilities but since our work was mainly group work, I just got into a group with other higher-ability students and we got our A/A* grades. Same happened in Media Studies.

    About the disruption, I don't think that's something necessarily unique to comps. There were quite a few disruptive students in my Psychology class at my grammar school sixth form who'd been to the grammar school since they were 11. I think maybe they just got complacent or something and decided just to mess around and never hand work in.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    I wasn't aware limited anecdotal evidence was a valid substitute for concrete fact.
    It's anecdotal evidence for sure, but my situation's pretty unique. My sixth form is part of the grammar school but it has a comprehensive intake so out of about 700 students only about 220 came from the main grammar school.

    Therefore I've had a better opportunity than most to compare the abilities of those from a grammar and those from comprehensives and there are a lot of people who didn't go to the grammar who are now as good or better than those who did. Sure you get some geniui from the grammar who are great at some subjects but what I've seen has led me to believe that the 11+ test is certainly not an effective way of differentiating between students.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    That would be quite an interesting experiment actually.

    yawn - it's statistics like that which would be useful, not how many people get 5 A*-C grades at GCSE.
    I agree - and the more emphasis that is put on that 'value-added' which is meaningful, the more reliable the statistics will be.

    For example:

    The selective schools in Kent evidence greater value added between key stage 2 and 3 than any other stages. The reason for this is that the primaries focus almost exclusively on preparation for the 11+ at ks 2 to the detriment of SAT's. Therefore, the statistics at ks 2 are much lower than one would expect for the intake to grammar schools. The 'catch-up' is therefore much greater between ks2 and 3 at grammars, since those childrens results at ks2 are not a reliable indicator of their abilities.
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    If you take away grammar schools now, and brought me out right in the middle of my GCSE's, then what kind of effect would it have on me? I'd go to a comp school knowing a lot more than most of the students there and end up having to teach them the stuff i know rather than concentrating myself..

    Havent got a clue how that could possibly benefit me.:confused:
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    (Original post by amie)
    Did you go to a really rough school or something?

    I don't mean any offence, it's just quite different to my own experience!

    At the comp I went to, although there were lower ability students in a couple of my option classes, it didn't effect me at all. For example, in Drama there was a good mix of people from all abilities but since our work was mainly group work, I just got into a group with other higher-ability students and we got our A/A* grades. Same happened in Media Studies.

    About the disruption, I don't think that's something necessarily unique to comps. There were quite a few disruptive students in my Psychology class at my grammar school sixth form who'd been to the grammar school since they were 11. I think maybe they just got complacent or something and decided just to mess around and never hand work in.
    It was one of the roughest in the area, but also one of the highest achieving for some bizzare reason.
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    (Original post by LH)
    It's anecdotal evidence for sure, but my situation's pretty unique. My sixth form is part of the grammar school but it has a comprehensive intake so out of about 700 students only about 220 came from the main grammar school.

    Therefore I've had a better opportunity than most to compare the abilities of those from a grammar and those from comprehensives and there are a lot of people who didn't go to the grammar who are now as good or better than those who did. Sure you get some geniui from the grammar who are great at some subjects but what I've seen has led me to believe that the 11+ test is certainly not an effective way of differentiating between students.
    My experience is very, very similar. I went from a comprehensive to a grammar school sixth form and although the intake proportions are quite different (it was mainly grammar school students in the sixth form, but still quite a few comprehensive students), I've come to the same conclusion - the 11+ test is just not adequate.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    I reckon its common sense, though. If you are middle-class, its likely, very likely, that your parents had good educations, to get their well-paid jobs. You are undoubtably going to pass on that sort of education ethic to your children, making education a priority. If you are poor, living on benefits, it is LIKELY, NOT certain, that you didn't have a very good education, and therefore won't necessarily push you children to do well at school, with a midframe like" bloody school never did anything for me" rather than" look at all we have, ebcause we did well in school". Your parents have a masisve impact on whether you will try hard in school or not- do yours check your homework diariies a lot, do they turn up for parents evenings, do they help with your work, do they make you do you homework before going out to socialise? Most middle- class kids would say yes. A startling amount of poorer kids could say no. Now, middle-class kids in good areas will go to the nearest school, in the catchment area. They are all therefore concentrated into one school, so that school will do wll on the tables. Poorer kids will all be concentrated into one school too, hence the bad scores on tables. Obviosuly, thee are poor kids who do well, and wealthy kids who dont, i'm talking generally.
    I know, but getting rid of grammars won't change that. All that will happen is further middle class segregation in the top comprehensives. And once the bright middle class kids start spilling into the comprehensives, they will not have much of an impact on performance as they will still be in a minority. As they are in a minority, they are more likely to be bullied for being different, smarter and more hard-working, thus restricting their potential.

    It might seem common-sensical to you, but I would like to see some hard evidence which demonstrates clearly that people do just as well wherever they go, as I really don't believe it to be the case.

    I completely agree that socio-economic background plays a large role in determining a child's academic potential, of course it does, but I see no desirable alternative to the system we currently have. Segregation will continue, and the best will be dragged behind. What needs to be sorted out is the actual comprehensives themselves, as well as core family values - punishing the more able/more fortunate is not the way forward.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    So, if you put all of the kids who go to Crapton comp in Brixton in Eton, and put all Etonians into Craton comp, all that would happen is the eton would plummet, an crapton would shoot up.
    Fact of the matter is - I'm pretty sure Etonians wouldn't do as well in Crapton comp than they would in good ol' Eton. Also, Eton and other public schools aren't particularly selective academically (less so than some grammar schools I would imagine) which strongly suggests that money, and therefore teaching quality, resources and facilities, does in fact have a lot to do with it.
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    (Original post by amywalters)
    If you take away grammar schools now, and brought me out right in the middle of my GCSE's, then what kind of effect would it have on me? I'd go to a comp school knowing a lot more than most of the students there and end up having to teach them the stuff i know rather than concentrating myself..

    Havent got a clue how that could possibly benefit me.:confused:
    I think you, like I once did, have overestimated how much greater your school is than the local comps. Plus such a change wouldn't happen overnight, it would be a gradual process.
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    (Original post by amie)
    Did you go to a really rough school or something?

    I don't mean any offence, it's just quite different to my own experience!

    At the comp I went to, although there were lower ability students in a couple of my option classes, it didn't effect me at all. For example, in Drama there was a good mix of people from all abilities but since our work was mainly group work, I just got into a group with other higher-ability students and we got our A/A* grades. Same happened in Media Studies.

    About the disruption, I don't think that's something necessarily unique to comps. There were quite a few disruptive students in my Psychology class at my grammar school sixth form who'd been to the grammar school since they were 11. I think maybe they just got complacent or something and decided just to mess around and never hand work in.
    Also the fact that you count not handing work in as disruptive behaviour confirms my views on grammar schools, my school had to get its own policeman to deal with our "disruptive" kids
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    Ah but that doesn't answer the question asked.

    Also, just to clarify - did you enjoy your time at the grammar school you were at?
    Not especially - and mostly because I was surrounded by others who thought they were really something special because they had managed to pass the 11+.

    I'll ask you a question - although you might not be the right person to ask since you are not attending a state school - however...

    How many people who attended grammar schools always include the fact that their school was a grammar school by saying "When I went to my grammar school..." rather than just saying "When I went to secondary school...." ?

    Answer - practically every one of them!!:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by amie)
    Same happened in Media Studies.
    Haha
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    (Original post by LH)
    I think you, like I once did, have overestimated how much greater your school is than the local comps. Plus such a change wouldn't happen overnight, it would be a gradual process.
    its not that, but i got put forward from my primary school to go to grammar by my teachers, and that was and is definately the place for me - i havent had any problems. but im not saying that its for everyone, but i like where i am, all the comps round here are absolutely disgraceful and are not achieving half of what i am.
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    (Original post by amywalters)
    If you take away grammar schools now, and brought me out right in the middle of my GCSE's, then what kind of effect would it have on me? I'd go to a comp school knowing a lot more than most of the students there and end up having to teach them the stuff i know rather than concentrating myself..

    Havent got a clue how that could possibly benefit me.:confused:
    That is by no means a surety. In fact, it is a perpetuating myth.

    As LH has admitted, the kids from the comps were far brighter than the ones who had attended his grammar all along.

    ..and his school is by no means unique in that experience.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Not especially - and mostly because I was surrounded by others who thought they were really something special because they had managed to pass the 11+.
    Sorry, but this is why I don't believe you are arguing from an objective viewpoint. You have vested interests, as does anybody else. If you had had the most wonderful time of your life at grammar, I am fairly certain you would not be here now arguing with quite the same vigour.

    (Original post by yawn)
    I'll ask you a question - although you might not be the right person to ask since you are not attending a state school - however...

    How many people who attended grammar schools always include the fact that their school was a grammar school by saying "When I went to my grammar school..." rather than just saying "When I went to secondary school...." ?

    Answer - practically every one of them!!:rolleyes:
    I'll ask you a question - what kind of people notice?
 
 
 
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