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Investment Banking / Corporate Law
Does anyone know the differences / similarities between IB and corporate law at a Magic Circle/US firm? (trying to decide between a career in either)
Thanks
Thanks
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Haha I like the way you assume you will be magic circle or investment banker but anyway I will give you the low down on each:
IB you get paid a fortune but for about 7 years you are the bitch, you basically are the photocopy boy doing 100hr weeks and you get flogged to hell... most investment bankers wipe out at 35 or so and cant go on any longer but the money is ridiculous.
Commercial Law you get good work from day one, proper experience, and your own secretary. The hours are less and you actually have a social life... even in the office!!
You really have to do your own research, and since you haven't even done your GCSEs yet you cant even begin to compare them yet. Why would you want to work for a US firm anyway ... theres plenty of international firms which aren't magic circle you know, aim high but be warnded of how competitive they are. Unless you have afirst and literally involved in EVERYTHING its almost impossible.
IB you get paid a fortune but for about 7 years you are the bitch, you basically are the photocopy boy doing 100hr weeks and you get flogged to hell... most investment bankers wipe out at 35 or so and cant go on any longer but the money is ridiculous.
Commercial Law you get good work from day one, proper experience, and your own secretary. The hours are less and you actually have a social life... even in the office!!
You really have to do your own research, and since you haven't even done your GCSEs yet you cant even begin to compare them yet. Why would you want to work for a US firm anyway ... theres plenty of international firms which aren't magic circle you know, aim high but be warnded of how competitive they are. Unless you have afirst and literally involved in EVERYTHING its almost impossible.
Both are pretty hard graft. Corporate Law in the MC is perhaps slightly easier, but equally if you are working for a white shoe outfit like, for example, Skadden Arps or Latham and Watkins, chances are you will be working just as hard as anyone at Citigroup/Morgan Stanley etc, and the banks pay far more (not necessarily in terms of salary, but the bonuses are hugemongous). You will have little social life at either, and both involve lots of photocopying for a while (albeit very well paid). I should'nt worry about either until you are at uni- do internships in both and make your mind up afterwards.
Lewis-HuStuJCR
Haha I like the way you assume you will be magic circle or investment banker but anyway I will give you the low down on each:
IB you get paid a fortune but for about 7 years you are the bitch, you basically are the photocopy boy doing 100hr weeks and you get flogged to hell... most investment bankers wipe out at 35 or so and cant go on any longer but the money is ridiculous.
Commercial Law you get good work from day one, proper experience, and your own secretary. The hours are less and you actually have a social life... even in the office!!
IB you get paid a fortune but for about 7 years you are the bitch, you basically are the photocopy boy doing 100hr weeks and you get flogged to hell... most investment bankers wipe out at 35 or so and cant go on any longer but the money is ridiculous.
Commercial Law you get good work from day one, proper experience, and your own secretary. The hours are less and you actually have a social life... even in the office!!
I can't comment in any detail on what exactly an investment banker does every day, but the ones I've known certainly haven't been just "photocopy boys". Why on earth would anyone pay them high salaries to perform a job which any untrained monkey could do? You are right about the hours, though. Corporate lawyers tend to work very hard (often alternating between periods of relative calm and complete mayhem when a transaction is about to complete), but investment banking seems worse; I think banking's macho culture has something to do with that.
I'm afraid I can't agree with your claim that, as a lawyer, "you get good work from day one", either as a trainee or a newly qualified. Believe me, both get their share of tedious gimp work, although admittedly trainees bear the brunt of this. The more senior you are, the greater the proportion of interesting and challenging work. I'm sure it's the same for investment banking.
BTW, commercial law is not the same thing as corporate law!
Only in IBD is it 100 hour weeks in IB. On the markets side, it is more like 60 on a tough week.
Most bankers retire by 35. Not wipe out.
You start in IB on the path to riches as soon as you leave uni. No additional year(s) of studying.
Most bankers retire by 35. Not wipe out.
You start in IB on the path to riches as soon as you leave uni. No additional year(s) of studying.
LewisHuStu: I don't know what you base this comment on: Commercial Law you get good work from day one, proper experience, and your own secretary. The hours are less and you actually have a social life... even in the office!!
Corporate lawyers can work extremely long hours - usually in peaks and troughs depending on deal deadlines. The quality of work as a junior lawyer (eg trainee to 2 yr PQE) is poor - the rewards of challenging work etc come later.
Corporate lawyers can work extremely long hours - usually in peaks and troughs depending on deal deadlines. The quality of work as a junior lawyer (eg trainee to 2 yr PQE) is poor - the rewards of challenging work etc come later.
chalks, corporate lawyers are basically doing the legal end of IBD in banks - so what sort of hours are they looking at?
cfcbradders - some areas of IB virtually depend on you taking some kind of quantitative degree (Maths, Physics, Engineering, Economics etc) but some don't.
cfcbradders - some areas of IB virtually depend on you taking some kind of quantitative degree (Maths, Physics, Engineering, Economics etc) but some don't.
Cheers. Current business climate is very much IBD conducive as well. One up on all those lawyers who claim they will comfortably be home by 6 and never work a weekend 
Currently, the low interest rate environment and non-stellar equity markets have meant companies have a lot of cash sloshing around while companies are historically, on the cheaper side. Hence, there's a lot of mergering and acquiring going on.
Hence, your corp lawyers are getting business with a lot of tight deadlines. Someone was suggesting to me that lawyers work 50 tops and have it 'pretty wasy going' compared to their banker fellows.
Hence, your corp lawyers are getting business with a lot of tight deadlines. Someone was suggesting to me that lawyers work 50 tops and have it 'pretty wasy going' compared to their banker fellows.
economics for IB I would say (possibly econometrics as it has brick hard maths in it) ... they are both competitive although I would say there are far fewer big investment banks (may be wrong) so I think its probably harder. Also when you say corporate law do you mean the department or a City firm, cos corporate is a department now a type of firm.
Lewis-HuStuJCR
economics for IB I would say (possibly econometrics as it has brick hard maths in it) ... they are both competitive although I would say there are far fewer big investment banks (may be wrong) so I think its probably harder. Also when you say corporate law do you mean the department or a City firm, cos corporate is a department now a type of firm.
i mean part of a bigger firm. law is obviously hugely competitive and i understand so would IB. but with the prospect of an absolutely knackering career and being blown out before your 40 at an IB firm... i think many people are put off and instead would prefer the a law placement where, arguably, it is less stress. sorry to those future lawyers out there!!! just my opinion on the matter! thanks lewis btw.
To get an internship at a leading IB in a front office position, you're looking at a minimum of 100 applications per place. The number of positions between say the top 8 banks, in the front office, is about 550-600 or so in total (estimate).
Hours vary by division within the front from around 50-60 hours a week in some to over 100 in others.
Given that starting salaries are in the region of base 35k in year 1 with bonuses (sign and performance) pulling you up to 50k+ and 'who wants to be a millionaire' by 27/28, most people are long retired by 40 (if that) rather than burnt and blown out.
chalks has suggested competition for top vac schemes is about 20 to 1 (which is similar to entry into Oxford or Cambridge if you want comparison in that sense) with hours varying from say 40 to 80. The pay scale I saw was something in the region of about 30k (if you're lucky) in year 1 and rising to 50k by year 3.
Hours vary by division within the front from around 50-60 hours a week in some to over 100 in others.
Given that starting salaries are in the region of base 35k in year 1 with bonuses (sign and performance) pulling you up to 50k+ and 'who wants to be a millionaire' by 27/28, most people are long retired by 40 (if that) rather than burnt and blown out.
chalks has suggested competition for top vac schemes is about 20 to 1 (which is similar to entry into Oxford or Cambridge if you want comparison in that sense) with hours varying from say 40 to 80. The pay scale I saw was something in the region of about 30k (if you're lucky) in year 1 and rising to 50k by year 3.
President_Ben
chalks has suggested competition for top vac schemes is about 20 to 1 (which is similar to entry into Oxford or Cambridge if you want comparison in that sense) with hours varying from say 40 to 80. The pay scale I saw was something in the region of about 30k (if you're lucky) in year 1 and rising to 50k by year 3.
I think you're confusing vac schemes and training contracts. The hours "worked" by vac students tend to be 9 to 5, unless it's an exceptional situation. Vac schemes are essentially PR exercises, not a means of getting cheap labour - that's what trainees are for! I'm not sure about pay - I'd expect at least £250 a week. The pay scale you mention above applies to trainees and newly qualifieds, as do the hours worked.
On the subject of competitiveness, I think chalks's figure is actually an underestimate, though it's difficult to come up with a precise number. Magic Circle firms can receive as many as 80 application per place, and vacation schemes are reputed to be even more oversubscribed.
Incidentally, you'll find that the Oxford application-to-offer ratio is is actually less than 4 to 1, not 20 to 1 as you suggest, and I suspect that Cambridge is similar. (If anyone is interested, here is where I got the figure from.) But, like anywhere else, the numbers are irrelevant, it's the quality of the applicants that counts. I therefore think it's not altogether productive to attach too much importance to these figures.
Ben, do bankers really choose to retire at 35; I just find loads of people resenting rather than celebrating this? What do they do after then; are there any good employment options left open?
On the UCL economics course how many people will get the good IB jobs?
How much would bonuses typically be as % of salary?
On the UCL economics course how many people will get the good IB jobs?
How much would bonuses typically be as % of salary?
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