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    (Original post by Dill)
    you sound like an absolute loser!
    nice start..:rolleyes:

    oh yeah, poor poor farmers, their animals that will be sent to the slaughter anyway are dying, oh i feel so sorry for them. what do you think animals are, machines? fool. im sure the animals are suffering just SLIGHTLY worse than the farmers...and anyway, people make money, they go bankrupt, they make more money, its the way of the world baby. im sure farmers know what they are getting themselves in for, so why should anyone be sympathetic to them?
    because they work longer harder hours than most of the working population and have little guarantee of an income at the end of the day..

    i live in a random village in devon, and i know quite a bit about fox hunting.
    you blatantly know nothing about farming..

    lots of my relatives do it, random people in the village etc. and i dont know WHAT you people are on about saying, 'yeah, the dog goes straight for the neck, its can basically feel nothing', HAH, i dunno if you live in a perfect place where this happens with your local hunters, but it sure doesn't happen everywhere...
    the fox doesnt feel anything? or the dog doesnt go for the neck of the fox?

    it's a disgusting 'sport', and the people who do it deserve a kick in the balls, and more. i personally think you must be sick in the head to do something like that.
    well, thats your opinion...

    and what's the deal with lots of people saying 'there are more important things to worry about than fox hunting, like people in the 3rd world, and starving people blah blah', of course i care about that, but does that mean that we can't discuss anything else? are those the only things you discuss in your everyday life?
    no, but some people like to see some perspective in terms of the political time and resource that the fox hunting issue is given.

    yeah, didn't think so, so be quiet.
    i thought you said we should discuss? bizarre.

    foxes are pests? they are breeding at a rapid rate? they aren't doing anything good for the environment? hah, sounds like the human race to me...foxes need to eat to survive, believe it or not.
    but their popn is controlled to benefit the balance and mechanics of the countryside.

    they are carnivores, ie they need meat more than we do. people steal their land, breed chickens/whatever on their land, then cry boohoo when the foxes eat the chickens. to animal rights activists people im sure the farmers/hunt supporters say 'dont you care about the chickens that the foxes killed?' they are just going to be sent to the slaughter anyway.
    yes, because humans need to sustain themselves too. and thanks for the primary school chit chat about foxes, informative if irrelevant.

    what exactly was your point in all of that?
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    <chuckles> I guess it's inevitable that some pathetic person needs to pick apart every little thing I say. You seem to be more interested in the structure of what I wrote rather than giving your views on the matter. ie. a debate ;D
    All I'm saying about the farmer issue IS that it's renowned to be a pretty tough job right? So I'm sure they knew this prior to inheriting the farmer business/becoming a farmer/whatever, right? SO if they don't make a profit or if they lose money then I don't think they should go crying to the government and expect to be given money. I have nothing against farmers, the ones I know seem like jolly nice chaps. Ups and downs come with jobs, it's the way it is!
    What I meant was that I'm sure not all of the time the dog goes straight for the back of the neck of the fox, killing it instantly. Which I am sure you gathered from what I said...but trying to be awkward you have to try and point out every mistake of what I wrote that you can.
    Yes, I know it's my opinion, that's why I wrote 'I personally think', am I not allowed an opinion now?
    Okay, if fox hunting is such a small issue nowadays, and shouldn't be given so much time considering it etc. then we should just ban it right now, yes? And then the ex-fox hunters can go out on 'save the world' campaigns rather than go out fox hunting, agreed? I mean, there are far more important things to be doing with our time! : \
    Their popn is controlled to benefit the balance and mechanics of the countryside? Erm, excuse me? Do you mean the human population? How exactly is our population controlled? As far as I am concerned, there are houses upon houses being built where I am! Every little bit of extra land that can be found is having a house built on it! They've been built in the orchard behind my back garden, it other people's back gardens, and on the farmers land, (the farmers get rent of course) erm...I don't think thats exactly looking after the countryside, do you? I'm not even going to ask you about your location!
    Oh, by the way, for someone who seemed to think what I said was pointless, and irrelevant, and primary school chit chat, then why did you bother submitting such a large reply to what I said, it looked as if you cared to me ;D
    Ciao.
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    (Original post by Dill)
    <chuckles> I guess it's inevitable that some pathetic person needs to pick apart every little thing I say. You seem to be more interested in the structure of what I wrote rather than giving your views on the matter. ie. a debate ;D
    finished with the insults?

    NB: there have been 101 hunting threads, my opinion is on plenty of them.

    having read both of your posts im still confused as to your actual argument against hunting other than it being for "sick" people who you would "kick in the *******s".

    All I'm saying about the farmer issue IS that it's renowned to be a pretty tough job right? So I'm sure they knew this prior to inheriting the farmer business/becoming a farmer/whatever, right? SO if they don't make a profit or if they lose money then I don't think they should go crying to the government and expect to be given money. I have nothing against farmers, the ones I know seem like jolly nice chaps. Ups and downs come with jobs, it's the way it is!
    i dont get your point? what has this got to do with fox hunting? and the government subsidies are to the benefit of everyone.

    What I meant was that I'm sure not all of the time the dog goes straight for the back of the neck of the fox, killing it instantly. Which I am sure you gathered from what I said...but trying to be awkward you have to try and point out every mistake of what I wrote that you can.
    in a debate its best to be clear, i was asking for clarification because it wasnt. i can assure you, a dogs natural instinct is to go for the back of the neck of the fox to kill it, this may be after tripping its back legs or mounting it from the rear.

    Yes, I know it's my opinion, that's why I wrote 'I personally think', am I not allowed an opinion now?
    of course, but it was just an ill-thought out, abusive one that served no value to the argument at that juncture.

    Okay, if fox hunting is such a small issue nowadays, and shouldn't be given so much time considering it etc. then we should just ban it right now, yes? And then the ex-fox hunters can go out on 'save the world' campaigns rather than go out fox hunting, agreed? I mean, there are far more important things to be doing with our time! : \
    some people have that view..i believe that the government should accept the voice of the majority to keep hunting and then drop this by-all-means agenda of theirs to ban hunting even if it means using the parliament act.

    Their popn is controlled to benefit the balance and mechanics of the countryside? Erm, excuse me? Do you mean the human population? How exactly is our population controlled? As far as I am concerned, there are houses upon houses being built where I am! Every little bit of extra land that can be found is having a house built on it! They've been built in the orchard behind my back garden, it other people's back gardens, and on the farmers land, (the farmers get rent of course) erm...I don't think thats exactly looking after the countryside, do you? I'm not even going to ask you about your location!
    maintaining the countryside through fox control and discussing housing projects are two entirely different issues.

    why do u need to, its says under my avatar.

    Oh, by the way, for someone who seemed to think what I said was pointless, and irrelevant, and primary school chit chat, then why did you bother submitting such a large reply to what I said, it looked as if you cared to me ;D
    Ciao.
    i care about the discussion. pointing out the wheat from the chaff is valuable in that sense.
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    oh vienna, stop trying to act so high&mighty, i have seen your posts in other places, and you seem to think you are better and know much more than everyone else.
    "i dont get your point? what has this got to do with fox hunting?" you say? oh, come off it, as if everything you have said is solely about fox hunting, talking about the farmers having the hardest job, working more hours than other working people. I could ask you the same question vienna ;D
    Okay, so the dogs instinct is to go for the neck, but what if this is not possible? we both know that it does not always happen this way. and even if it does, does it make it anymore justifiable? just because it is a different species to us, just because you may think they are uglier than us, just because you may think they are less intelligent than humans, just because you think that foxes are slowly ruining this world moreso than humans are, (im sure you dont) does this mean that they mean nothing to you? (simple question, requiring a straightforward answer, not a long blah blah one that doesn't reach an answer at the end).
    And just for the record, the majority don't want to keep hunting. I have NO idea where you got that information from, probably a 'keep fox-hunting' website no doubt... How did Tony Blair become the PM when one of his promises was to ban fox hunting, if, like you say, the majority want to keep it?
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    (Original post by Dill)
    oh vienna, stop trying to act so high&mighty, i have seen your posts in other places, and you seem to think you are better and know much more than everyone else.
    hehe, really...anything else i should know about myself..?

    "i dont get your point? what has this got to do with fox hunting?" you say? oh, come off it, as if everything you have said is solely about fox hunting, talking about the farmers having the hardest job, working more hours than other working people. I could ask you the same question vienna ;D
    er, no you couldnt. my point about farmers was in response to your question "why should anyone be sympathetic to them", remember?
    again, whats your specific point between sympathy for farmers and fox hunting?

    Okay, so the dogs instinct is to go for the neck, but what if this is not possible?
    im not a dog, but im sure it has very few other options.

    we both know that it does not always happen this way. and even if it does, does it make it anymore justifiable?
    a dog killing a fox?

    just because it is a different species to us, just because you may think they are uglier than us, just because you may think they are less intelligent than humans, just because you think that foxes are slowly ruining this world moreso than humans are, (im sure you dont) does this mean that they mean nothing to you? (simple question, requiring a straightforward answer, not a long blah blah one that doesn't reach an answer at the end).
    i think foxes are an important part of the wildlife of this country. there are a number of reasons for hunting them, one being controlling their population benefits the countryside.

    And just for the record, the majority don't want to keep hunting. I have NO idea where you got that information from, probably a 'keep fox-hunting' website no doubt...
    a YouGov poll. 59%

    How did Tony Blair become the PM when one of his promises was to ban fox hunting, if, like you say, the majority want to keep it?
    based on the poor reputation of the Conservative party and his other infinately more important policies.
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    (Original post by Dill)
    And just for the record, the majority don't want to keep hunting. I have NO idea where you got that information from, probably a 'keep fox-hunting' website no doubt... How did Tony Blair become the PM when one of his promises was to ban fox hunting, if, like you say, the majority want to keep it?

    some more information for your benefit: (taken from http://www.supportfoxhunting.co.uk/)

    Those against hunting come up with a load of rubbish in favour of their argument. Below are some of the claims they make and the truth.

    They say: Hunting is cruel

    Rubbish. “Hunting by hounds is the most natural and humane way of controlling the population of all four quarry species - fox, deer, hare and mink - in the countryside.” Statement supported by over 500 members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

    “Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel…The short answer to that question is no.”
    Lord Burns, chair. Inquiry into Hunting with dogs.

    This confirmed the findings of an earlier Government inquiry. Both inquiries found that death was almost instantaneous. The inquiry also found that shotgun use in the day & snaring - the main alternatives to hunting - are worse for animal welfare.

    They say: It is done by 'toffs' on horses who enjoy cruelty

    Rubbish. This pathetic attitude is wholly untrue. 195,000 ordinary women and men from all walks of life, support hunting, most of them on foot. Logically it cannot be right for MPs to ban hunting with hounds, and not hunting with a gun or a fishing rod, purely because they don’t like the people they believe support hunting with dogs. The proposal to ban hunting is an attack on the people that hunt, rather than an improvement in animal welfare.

    They say: The majority of the public want a ban.
    Rubbish. Only 36% of the public supports a ban on hunting. The majority of the public now consistently opposes
    a ban.


    hope thats cleared a few things up for you
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    They're only foxes! They're not on the verge of extinction! The species isn't being wiped out - in fact the weaker/older foxes are the ones being caught, leaving the better foxes to breed (so it's really aiding fox evolution)! Do you disapprove of people setting mouse traps/laying down rat poison/using bug spray to get rid of infestations in their houses?? Do you think foxes are more important than humans?

    Of course fox hunting is cruel, but so what? It would be just as cruel to let the fox live and go on to kill hundreds of innocent rabbits, possibly causing rival foxes to die of starvation. Your argument makes no sense: cruelty is inescapable.
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    erm, maybe those facts might be a little more reliable if they weren't from the 'support fox hunting' website! just a little bias don't you think?! geez!
    i totally understand where you guys are coming from, i know everyone has different views, and they have usually been bought up to disagree with it, or agree with it, and i know there is cruelty lurking around everywhere in the environment, but i just feel that animals don't know that what they are doing is cruel, they are just killing animals because they need to eat, whereas with humans, they know what they are doing is inflicting pain&suffering upon animals, yet they don't give it a second thought.
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    (Original post by Dill)
    erm, maybe those facts might be a little more reliable if they weren't from the 'support fox hunting' website! just a little bias don't you think?! geez!
    the SOURCES PROVIDED by the website seem substantial to me.
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    (Original post by Dill)
    erm, maybe those facts might be a little more reliable if they weren't from the 'support fox hunting' website! just a little bias don't you think?! geez!
    this website cannot afford to be seen to be putting too positive a spin on the facts as it promotes itself as the biggest independent prohunting website and is therefore acting ambassador for hunting, as people like me who search for hunting info will just click on the first site which comes up which happens to be this site.. false facts would only act to undermine their argument further - someone i doubt they are stupid enough to do

    (Original post by Dill)
    with humans, they know what they are doing is inflicting pain&suffering upon animals, yet they don't give it a second thought.
    i see where youre coming from, but i disagree with the "dont give it a second thought" - hunting has proven to be the most fast and effective method of killing foxes.. being the lazy race we are, do you think humans would continue to fox-hunt if the kill was slow/ineffective/messy/of danger to our own dogs (ie. in some kind of show down fight between fox and dog).. it is as the following statement supports, the most natural and humane way of fox control.

    A Veterinary Opinion on Hunting with Hounds -
    “It is the natural, balanced, biological method of controlling wildlife, proven over centuries.”

    A statement supported by over 500 members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons included that "Hunting by hounds is the most natural and humane way of controlling the population of all four quarry species - fox, deer, hare and mink - in the countryside."

    and as for "dont even give it a second thought".. killing foxes is taken very seriously, and is only carried out by trained, and qualified huntsmen, it isnt just a free-for-all, the following offers more info -

    The autumn hunting season is a vital part of controlling the fox population and strict rules apply to ensure that it is only carried out for controlling foxes.

    Terrier work is no part of the enjoyment of foxhunting (the enjoyment being the horseriding aspect), but it plays an important role in fox control.
    Digging may only take place with the expressed permission of the landowner or farmer. MFHA Rules state that when a fox is run to ground there shall be no digging other than for the purpose of humanely destroying the fox.
    Terrier work can only be carried out by those licensed by the MFHA. The terrierman will normally be accompanied by one assistant only. Due to the possible use of a humane killer, and to avoid unnecessary noise and disturbance, participation is limited to the terrierman and his assistant with sometimes the presence of the relevant farmer or gamekeeper.
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    surely it would be much cheaper and more humane to employ a gamekeeper?
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    vienna95 I must point out that it is extremely nerdy and sad to break an opinion apart into sections and analyse it.
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    (Original post by ToshTrent)
    vienna95 I must point out that it is extremely nerdy and sad to break an opinion apart into sections and analyse it.
    and even nerdier to try and score points by pointing it out to everyone else..
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    nice start..:rolleyes:


    because they work longer harder hours than most of the working population and have little guarantee of an income at the end of the day..



    you blatantly know nothing about farming..



    the fox doesnt feel anything? or the dog doesnt go for the neck of the fox?



    well, thats your opinion...



    no, but some people like to see some perspective in terms of the political time and resource that the fox hunting issue is given.



    i thought you said we should discuss? bizarre.



    but their popn is controlled to benefit the balance and mechanics of the countryside.



    yes, because humans need to sustain themselves too. and thanks for the primary school chit chat about foxes, informative if irrelevant.

    what exactly was your point in all of that?
    Vienna, thanks for your support
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    (Original post by Dill)
    you sound like an absolute loser! oh yeah, poor poor farmers, their animals that will be sent to the slaughter anyway are dying, oh i feel so sorry for them. what do you think animals are, machines? fool. im sure the animals are suffering just SLIGHTLY worse than the farmers...and anyway, people make money, they go bankrupt, they make more money, its the way of the world baby. im sure farmers know what they are getting themselves in for, so why should anyone be sympathetic to them?
    i live in a random village in devon, and i know quite a bit about fox hunting. lots of my relatives do it, random people in the village etc. and i dont know WHAT you people are on about saying, 'yeah, the dog goes straight for the neck, its can basically feel nothing', HAH, i dunno if you live in a perfect place where this happens with your local hunters, but it sure doesn't happen everywhere...it's a disgusting 'sport', and the people who do it deserve a kick in the balls, and more. i personally think you must be sick in the head to do something like that. and what's the deal with lots of people saying 'there are more important things to worry about than fox hunting, like people in the 3rd world, and starving people blah blah', of course i care about that, but does that mean that we can't discuss anything else? are those the only things you discuss in your everyday life? yeah, didn't think so, so be quiet.
    foxes are pests? they are breeding at a rapid rate? they aren't doing anything good for the environment? hah, sounds like the human race to me...foxes need to eat to survive, believe it or not. they are carnivores, ie they need meat more than we do. people steal their land, breed chickens/whatever on their land, then cry boohoo when the foxes eat the chickens. to animal rights activists people im sure the farmers/hunt supporters say 'dont you care about the chickens that the foxes killed?' they are just going to be sent to the slaughter anyway.
    Me a loser? If I am a loser you are a tosser. Since when did a fox own land? You obviously know nothing about farming. My Father had to give up farming when the milk quotas came in. He was not allowed to produce more than so many gallons of milk a day. He was pouring more down the drain than he was selling, it was illegal to sell it to anybody else because at that time the Milk Marketing Board controlled milk production. When he was growing grain, the amount to produce was given at the start of the season, but could reduce throughout the year. You should be compensated for that. Farming is not free enterprise, you can't sell to anybody you like, the government has to balance the books i.e. the amount imported, exported and the home market. Everyone harps on about buying British, but actually don't because it is cheaper to import from abroad.

    Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
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    (Original post by blissy)
    I have never been on holiday with my family because we couldn't afford it at all. I used to feel quite sorry for farmers!
    If you call 5 days in Wales in a crappy caravan a holiday! Did you have days off i.e. Saturdays and Sundays, Easter, Christmas? There is no such thing when you are a farmer. You never have a day off, it is 7 days a week.
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    (Original post by riffraff)
    surely it would be much cheaper and more humane to employ a gamekeeper?
    who would do what? shoot them?
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    (Original post by Little Britain)
    Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
    ahhh okay then, yum yum.
    as vienna95 (your little pal) would say, has this turned into a debate about farmers now? why did you bring them up in the very FIRST place? stick to the fox hunting debate :0P
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    heh toshtrent, i was going to say it was EXTREMELY nerdy to break an opinion into pieces and analyse each one...but she'd just get grumpy for commenting on something other than fox hunting.
 
 
 
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