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    (Original post by vienna95)
    live a little. when you grow out of it, youll look back and chuckle and regret that you didnt enjoy life. your also doing your body a great deal of damage by cutting so many sources of natural nutrients out of your diet.
    Hence vitamins.
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    (Original post by drago di giada)
    Hence vitamins.
    i think its difficult to say just vitamins.
    ie. many vegetarians cite that they can obtain protein from other sources than red meat, but are you really sure you arent missing out on anything else other than what we have identified?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    but are you really sure you arent missing out on anything else other than what we have identified?
    What do you mean?
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    Heh, you could always do bugs for protein!!
    THEN there is tap water.. if more people drank that they wouldn't have the problems they do with cavities because of the minerals and whatnot that is found in tap water. But not the average american drinks more pop/soda then water. And if they do drink water, its mainly filtered.
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    (Original post by drago di giada)
    True enough, BUT people are no better than animals. Tell me.. What life processes do we do differently than them? We reproduce, transport, respiration.. etc. So what makes us better? The simple fact that we have apposeable thumbs? Or that we are capable of a "higher level of though?" Neither.. if animals ruled this world do you think there would be war?
    If you really believe that, than our approaches to life are so funadmentally different that discussing this topic is pointless.

    In response to your questions: Because we are conscious, our life amount to more than eating and reproducing. Hence preserving human life, and allowing it to prosper, is considerably more important.

    Your last comment is just ridiculous. Animals fight all the time. Literally, they almost never stop fighting. For many of them, their whole way of living and body is designed to be an efficient killing machine (you could not say the same of humans)
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    (Original post by H&E)
    If you really believe that, than our approaches to life are so funadmentally different that discussing this topic is pointless.
    That is the point in debating is it not? To learn more, and to see the views of others, and possibly change theirs, or even your own?
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Your last comment is just ridiculous. Animals fight all the time. Literally, they almost never stop fighting. For many of them, their whole way of living and body is designed to be an efficient killing machine (you could not say the same of humans)
    Yes BUT humans kill as well.. it is our nature...
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    (Original post by drago di giada)
    Yes BUT humans kill as well.. it is our nature...
    So you accept your "if animals rule the world there'd be no war" suggestion was wrong? Good. Because it is frequently used by various groups despite being nonesense.

    Anyway, if you are so averse to killing, you should be supporting a prosperous civil society. Humans are the only species capable of having a creating a society where death plays a minor role (thinks of animals which aren't frequently involved in violence...they're all domesticated)

    Anyway, the reason I don't think there's any point discussing this issue is that for discussion certain groud rules are requires. Obvious ones include listening respectfully to other people's opinions, but less obvious ones include such things as "crime is wrong". I also include humanity's importance above that of other species as one of the basic tenents of life. Therefore you cannot argue with me to change my mind, as in the very act of arguing I assume that this assertion (Humans are more important than animals) holds.

    By the way: Is it morally wrong to squash a spider which is scaring your son/little brother?
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    Would you consider humans domesticated? We are in a sense.. the same as domesticated animals am I right? EXCEPT for the fact that we still cause death, crime, punishment..
    Of course its not wrong to kill a spider.. and I am not against all types of animal killing.
    Hoof and Mouth.. needed to kill the animals for that.
    I live in the country side in Western New York.. we have a very LARGE deer population, and if there was not a hunting season more and more people would die because of deer-related accidents.
    It is simple.. I do indeed believe that humans and animals are in a sense equal.
    Take for example the death penalty.. we kill our own just for commiting a murder... do two wrongs make a right?
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    (Original post by drago di giada)
    Would you consider humans domesticated? We are in a sense.. the same as domesticated animals am I right? EXCEPT for the fact that we still cause death, crime, punishment..
    Of course its not wrong to kill a spider.. and I am not against all types of animal killing.
    Hoof and Mouth.. needed to kill the animals for that.
    I live in the country side in Western New York.. we have a very LARGE deer population, and if there was not a hunting season more and more people would die because of deer-related accidents.
    It is simple.. I do indeed believe that humans and animals are in a sense equal.
    Take for example the death penalty.. we kill our own just for commiting a murder... do two wrongs make a right?
    I don't consider humans domesticated, sorry if I wasn't clear. I was in fact specifically referring to domesticated animals (cows, chickens, and the like).

    If it's not wrong to kill a spider just because it is scaring a young relative, clearly you are suggesting your relative's life is far more important than the spider's. I thought you disagreed with that?

    Re the death penatly: you are (perhaps deliberately) trivialising a very deep issue. People are executed to prevent future murders, both by removing their capability to do so and by dettering others from doing the same thing. Whether it's effective is another issue. But it's nothing to do with revenge or anythign like that.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    If it's not wrong to kill a spider just because it is scaring a young relative, clearly you are suggesting your relative's life is far more important than the spider's. I thought you disagreed with that?
    That statement is wrong my friend, If I were to kill the spider to ease the nerves of a relative THEN I would be valuing the human's life over the life of the spider... Oh and just for the record.. I'd be the one screaming.
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    War is surely defined as an agreed fight agains another group/animal/species.... Surely animals do not have the intelligence to agree upon fighting a specified group... Yes, animals fight, but do you ever see a massacre of wilderbeast by crocodiles? Only a few die, since crocodiles can in those circumstances hunt in groups and only pick on the youngest/oldest/weakest... natural selection! Animals fight over territory, and they only kill if needs be (most of the time). Animals fight an individual, this is not war... so how would there be a war if animals ruled the world? Oh, and when's the last time you saw a group of animals destroy a huge expanse of land because they were at war?
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    (Original post by drago di giada)
    That statement is wrong my friend, If I were to kill the spider to ease the nerves of a relative THEN I would be valuing the human's life over the life of the spider... Oh and just for the record.. I'd be the one screaming.
    I could stretch that metaphor a long way (would you kill a snake with a paralysing but non-lethal bite if he were attackign you etc).

    Point is, I think people like "animals" because they're small and furry and cute and they emphathise with that. There is a reason why far less money is spent on protecting mammals than, say, insects etc. I think it is a fundamentally sentimental thing.

    But anyway you may think differently, and I certainly won't pretend you are alone. I still think it's crazy to donate money to an animal charity over a human one, but it's up to each person to choose how to spend their money.
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    (Original post by Fleff)
    War is surely defined as an agreed fight agains another group/animal/species.... Surely animals do not have the intelligence to agree upon fighting a specified group... Yes, animals fight, but do you ever see a massacre of wilderbeast by crocodiles? Only a few die, since crocodiles can in those circumstances hunt in groups and only pick on the youngest/oldest/weakest... natural selection! Animals fight over territory, and they only kill if needs be (most of the time). Animals fight an individual, this is not war... so how would there be a war if animals ruled the world? Oh, and when's the last time you saw a group of animals destroy a huge expanse of land because they were at war?
    SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST! I thank you.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    I could stretch that metaphor a long way (would you kill a snake with a paralysing but non-lethal bite if he were attackign you etc).
    Nope.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    I could stretch that metaphor a long way (would you kill a snake with a paralysing but non-lethal bite if he were attackign you etc).
    I'd pick the snake up and throw it, because although the bite may only be paralysing, there are other things that may take advantage of your state, therefor resulting in death or some other sort of life threatening situation...
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    (When I said throw I meant place it in another area, of course, not literally throw it, that would just be wrong...)
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    (Original post by Fleff)
    (When I said throw I meant place it in another area, of course, not literally throw it, that would just be wrong...)
    LMAO!
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    vienna, what do you mean, 'live a little'? how can someone have more fun just because they eat meat? i get the impression that you are an extremely boring person who just loves to conform, but i may get a shock, i might be wrong, doubt it though. there are many successful athletes and body builders out there that are vegetarians, i doubt they would be out there right now if they were 'cutting so many sources of natural nutrients out of their diet.' oh, and the only thing you really have to watch out for when one is a vegetarian are the essential amino acids. (special protein) this stuff is found in meat, fish and eggs. soya is the main food for vegetarians that contain these essential aa's, so as long as we eat lots of that, then we will all be fine
    i personally would not kill a spider if it was merely scaring a relative. i might move it, but i wouldn't kill it since it is the relative at fault. if there was a fight between the spider and the relative, (where the spider had grown huge and was able to kill people) then i would want to kill the spider, as i do value humans more than animals in that respect.
    and vienna, what do you mean i will chuckle and look back on my life and regret i didn't enjoy it? who are you to tell me if i am enjoying life?! that is the most STUPID thing i have ever heard! when i'm an old biddy you really think i will say 'oh no, i really regret not eating meat when i was younger, it would have made my life SO much happier', yeah! as if! tell me how it's possible, i'm intrigued.
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    (Original post by Dill)
    vienna, what do you mean, 'live a little'? how can someone have more fun just because they eat meat? i get the impression that you are an extremely boring person who just loves to conform, but i may get a shock, i might be wrong, doubt it though. there are many successful athletes and body builders out there that are vegetarians, i doubt they would be out there right now if they were 'cutting so many sources of natural nutrients out of their diet.' oh, and the only thing you really have to watch out for when one is a vegetarian are the essential amino acids. (special protein) this stuff is found in meat, fish and eggs. soya is the main food for vegetarians that contain these essential aa's, so as long as we eat lots of that, then we will all be fine
    i personally would not kill a spider if it was merely scaring a relative. i might move it, but i wouldn't kill it since it is the relative at fault. if there was a fight between the spider and the relative, (where the spider had grown huge and was able to kill people) then i would want to kill the spider, as i do value humans more than animals in that respect.
    and vienna, what do you mean i will chuckle and look back on my life and regret i didn't enjoy it? who are you to tell me if i am enjoying life?! that is the most STUPID thing i have ever heard! when i'm an old biddy you really think i will say 'oh no, i really regret not eating meat when i was younger, it would have made my life SO much happier', yeah! as if! tell me how it's possible, i'm intrigued.
    hmm... yip. lol.
 
 
 
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