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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    Nah, they are rubbish at 'soccer'.
    Yeh, but I love to watch soccer moms!
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    Hey Howard!

    Howard and I disagree on Iraq, dont we Howard?
    We had a great discussion a couple of nights ago.
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    howard since moving to america can you watch baseball or american football without dying from boredom? :P or did you like it before

    "american" sports all seem so... slow? i dunno.
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    (Original post by Everdawn)
    Hey Howard!

    Howard and I disagree on Iraq, dont we Howard?
    We had a great discussion a couple of nights ago.
    I think so. Are you the person with SAS connections?
    I disagree with most people about most things so don't feel special!
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    (Original post by Gimp)
    howard since moving to america can you watch baseball or american football without dying from boredom? :P or did you like it before

    "american" sports all seem so... slow? i dunno.
    I agree. I grimaced through the superbowl. Only in America can a 1 hour game take 5 hours to get through and include a mid time "show" involving the brutalization of a national anthem and a pedophile's sister flashing her tits.

    However, crap sports aside, there's a lot more good things about America than bad things. I wouldn't even dream about moving back to the UK. Ever.
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    yup... and i dont feel special anymore, only being nice like my usual ribbons in hair kinda self.
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    (Original post by Everdawn)
    yup... and i dont feel special anymore, only being nice like my usual ribbons in hair kinda self.
    You are special!
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    lol! Thanks Howard.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    Well good luck to you. I don't think it'd be my cup of tea though. I'm hoping to move to Monte Carlo eventually
    It just suits the type of person I am.

    I live in a house with a pool that cost me less than I could buy an outhouse in London for.

    It is a free country. You can go out for a drink and unless you crash on the way home the cops will not pull you over for a random check cos it's illegal. Fuc% me! Take a drive in the UK after 10:00pm and you're almost bound to get pulled.

    There's so much democracy it's unreal. There are more elected positions in the US than in the rest of the western democratized countries put together.

    I can go out for a drink without worrying about being "bottled" by some ******* that can't hold his liqour. That's cos cops carry guns and will shoot the offender with minimal excuse.

    I like guns, and being in America allows me to own and carry them.

    The sun always shines (in Florida where I live)

    Tax is low. I still burst out laughing with joy everytime I feel my SUV with gas.

    If you have good credit banks throw money at you. This lets me do stupid but enjoyable things like ride a Harley Davidson (and no.....I'm know I'm "naughty" but I don't wear a helmet either because "nanny" doesn't tell me to)

    So, sure. American foreign policy might be a bit disageeable. So might be Bush. But do I give a shi*? Do I fuc$! No country in the world could give me this lifestyle and I don't feel one bit guilty because some folks can draw a few highly questionable links between American lifestyle and third world debt/suffering etc.

    It's the place I call home and I get very pissed when folks who's only experience of it is two weeks in Wally world start slating it.

    And boy is there some hypocracy about all this. All these folks who run down America. I'd almost guarantee that if you said to any of them 'OK, finish your degree and I'll fix you up with a job and greencard if you're interested" and they'd be racing round the M25 to Gatwick!
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    do you have an american accent yet?
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    (Original post by Gimp)
    do you have an american accent yet?
    Well, it's a lot "less English" than it was and I find myself saying things like "ya'll see where my car key's are at"?

    Somebody told me once that if you move to another country after age 12 you'll pretty much retain your existing accent so I doub't I'll ever sound convincingly American!
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    Ah but people's accents do usually adjust subconsciously to those around them. I bet you end up with an twang audible to non-Americans. When I lived dahn sarf I spoke something vaguely resembling the Queen's English, but pop back up North or even speak to someone on the phone from up here and I'd revert to my unintelligible tones.
    Well, as a matter of fact my old man calls up once every couple weeks from the UK and has gotten friendly over the phone with my secretary (a southern gal from MS)

    She always says "God I love your pa's accent" and when I say "well, it's the same as mine isn't it?" she says "oh hell no" so I guess that twang is developing after all.

    It's more noticeable in what you say though. Instead of saying "can I have a bud light" you do find yourself saying "let me get a bud light" or "bring me a bud light" instead and even dafter things like "I'm gonna drink me a cold beer"

    Strange but true!
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    (Original post by suspicious_fish)
    An impressive speech! It's good to see someone thinking hard about this stuff, and you make a very good argument.
    I think maybe I've come across wrong in this whole thing; I do not believe America to be evil in any way and I do agree with (almost) all of the values you list above, and I'm not criticising them wholesale, but I AM criticising their foreign policy.
    I do NOT believe America to be the most positive influence on our lives. Whilst they have undoubtedly been good, American imperialism, like British imperialism before it, has been responsible for the mass squashing of many cultures, and in order for some to realise the American Dream, countless others must suffer greatly. This may be a criticism of capitalism and the free market in general, but I bring it up here because America is based on those values, and their living as they do has had global influence that the majority of Americans, in my experience, choose to ignore.

    This is a very, VERY important point: if you read nothing else here read this: theocracy, autocracty, illiberalism, male domincance over females and all the other things you state are NOT Islamic traditions. This is a GRAVE error, and one frequently made. Although I'm not a Muslim myself I have studied Islam at length, and true Islam actively condemns all of those things, especially male dominance over women; it is explicitly stated in the Qu'ran that women and men are equal. Please understand this!! NOTHING you list in that second paragraph is endorsed by Islam.
    Because Islam is the religion enforced on that area by the government, people often assume that everything that goes on there must be controlled by that religion. That is not true; Saddam's dictatorship enforced all those things you listed, and Islam; Islam does not enforce those things in any way.

    The distinction between democracy and America is one that must be made; you can be democratic without being American, so you can embrace democracy without embracing America; this is what I do.

    As for enforcing democracy on people who do not want it..... I'm undecided. To me it seems arrogant to assume that our system of government is superior to all others, and more than obnoxious to violently impose that on another nation, but I know that there are arguments to be made for it. I have to think more about it before coming down on one side.
    Thanks for arguing back, my turn... By the way, this started as an excellent thread, but there are too many short, one sentence, replies... If we're going to argue, let's do it properly...

    Firstly, I want to highlight one phrase that perfectly depicts the differences between us and, in my opinion, the downfall of your agrument: 'American Imperialism'

    Let's look at American 'Imperialism' in the middle east...

    America actively supports Israel through financial, economic, political and military aid. America has given preferential treatment to Israel over every other middle eastern country. To many of you this is a narrow minded, dangerous and, above all, imperial approach to middle eastern foreign policy. However, we should compare Israel to its middle eastern neighbours. While the Palestinian Authority sits back and takes a passive approach to condeming arab terrorism, Israel actively fights to dismantle terrorist organisations. As Iran imposes theocracy on its citizens and prevents democratic elections taking place legitimately, Israel's politicians are regularly accountable to their electorate. As Syria continues to condem the practice of religions other than Islam, Israel has the right to follow any religious belief written into its constitution. And as the former Iraq tortured, murdered and brutally surpressed its own citizens, America restored freedom of speech, secularism, liberal economics and, most importantly, democracy.

    In my opinion, America is every bit entitled to support Israel and force regime change in Iraq. Many of you criticise this as 'imperial', I fundamentally disagree. Look again at my list of American values...

    freedom of speech and expression, freedom of religion, free market values, the spread of democracy, equality between sexes and races, the rule of law, equality of opportunity, accountablity in politics, representative voting systems, anti-corruption legislation, wealth on the basis of merit....

    Now tell me, are these imperial values or basic human rights?

    If you believe that this is not the ideal political system for all humans then you may call America imperial. If, however, like me you consider all of these values to be human rights, which everyone deserves the opportunity to be given, then you must never say that America is imperial. It may impose a system of values, but those values are common values which we all share regardless of race or culture, and for that very good reason, we should we thankful for American Liberalism.




    And also, when I described the violations of human rights in the middle east it was a reference to Arab culture. I am not saying that the koran endorses any of them, however you should accept that the majority of Arab states have adopted them as part of their tradition and culture. Don't forget thousands of Palestinians celebrating on September 11th...
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    I completely agree, that is the main reason I am glad we no longer have the empire.
    dont be silly, we ruled
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    (Original post by suspicious_fish)
    And 3, no-one ordered the counting or identification of bodies before the filiing of mass graves.
    o yeah mass graves come on hitler used mass graves. People who use ethnic cleansing use mass graves. Are you comparing us to them? Your defination of torture is absurd. Sleep deprivation? Not being allowed to see family members? Being tortured is far more serious then either of those. Serious convicts aren't allowed to see family, are they being tortured? Sleep deprivation? That is a joke.

    Surely u could have combined your posts so u didn't post like 7 times in a row on page 5?
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    (Original post by Gimp)
    howard since moving to america can you watch baseball or american football without dying from boredom? :P or did you like it before

    "american" sports all seem so... slow? i dunno.
    r u joking? ok, baseball is boring, but football is the least boring thing i can think of. I would be unable to sit through a game of soccer on TV
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    Low attention span
    no, i dont put up with bordem very well
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    Hmm so you don't like soccer. Fine. But not for not reason is it one of the most if not the most popular sports on the globe. Several bilion can't be wrong
    i like to play it, but not watch it
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    americans should ****ing sort it out. i hate america with a passion
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    Probably already posted, but this is a prime example of American arrogance: (from the BBC article mentioned on page 1)

    "In the last war, Iraqi tanks at fairly close ranges - not nose to nose - fired at our tanks and the shot bounced off the heavy armour... and our shot did not bounce off their armour," Col Naughton told the briefing.

    "So the result was Iraqi tanks destroyed - US tanks with scrape marks."

    He questioned the motives of those who challenged US use of depleted uranium.

    DU has been blamed for a number of leukaemia cases among former Balkans peacekeepers
    "Who's asking the question? The Iraqis tell us 'terrible things happened to our people because you used it last time'.

    "Why do they want it to go away? They want it to go away because we kicked the crap out of them, OK?

    "I mean, there's no doubt that DU gave us a huge advantage over their tanks. They lost a lot of tanks.

    "Their soldiers can't be really amused at the idea of going out in basically the same tanks with some slight improvements and taking on Abrams again."

    ----------

    Not only does this person treat war like a game with his choice of vocabulary - he goes and says the words that I have put in bold.
    That is complete arrogance and a characteristic that I loathe.

    Of course, we have our fair share of arrogant people too, but do you hear our army leaders spouting off about how superior we were compared to the Iraqis and basically having an American attitude towards war (Make things go boom and have fun while you do it)?
 
 
 
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