GOGSoc Episode VI: The GoG, the Bad and the Ugly

You misunderstand me. It's not that I wanted an AAB offer but that I genuinely believed we were all on an equal footing and so all had AAA offers. When that turned out to be totally false, it soured my attitude to Oxford.

I don't think I can - I don't have that much leave and I'd need someone to go with me, due to having to be supervised most of the time for my own safety It's worth thinking about though, so I guess I could look into it Summer is the time people usually go to this community

is it the only community you could possibly study? would you be able to write your proposal by saying you hope to go there, but have a 'back up'? I have a friend whose original proposal involved doing fieldwork in DRC, but since things have kicked off again there now, she can't go for various reasons - but mainly the ESRC won't fund it now. She's just changed her design to interview ICRC people on their return...she's not as happy with it, but it's a solution.

Yeah, my back-up plan is suggesting doing an ethnography the use of the community's music in a specific church setting (probably in London, just for convenience). I didn't realise it was OK to have a back-up plan - I thought they'd think I'm flakey So it's good to know that - thank you

I misread your initial comment, but I did not technically misquote you.

I do not see how Oxbridge 'take into account the socio-economic background of undergrads, and the quality of schools they came from, when making an offer' though.

I've often wondered what would happen if we went down the Scandinavian route, and abolished private schools. I doubt that would ever happen in this country, it would be political suicide, I think, but if it did, what would happen? Would it even things out, or would those with means still manage to distort the system through private tuition and so on?

I suppose the gap between Eton vs local comprehensive would obviously diminish, but would the gap still exist? If it would, I would say ban them in an instant. Selfish, perhaps, as someone who went to a private school, but really, something has got to change.

I'd put this the other way round. The best route out of an underprivileged background is through education. Fix the education system and you go a long way to blurring the division between classes.

Personally, I do not see why universities should lower their offers for students coming from poorer backgrounds. Yes, it's unfair that some students get worse tuition than others but universities are there to set their own standards of admission, given that each university requires a certain level in order to ensure its students will be able to cope with their degrees. In my country for example admission to university is based solely on performance in the final, nation wide, examinations. There is no consideration of anyone's background at all. In my university, I happen to know 4 out of the 5 students who got in with the highest marks and 3 of them came from state schools (pretty bad ones as well) and the fourth just came from a decent school, nothing exceptional.
In my opinion, it is not the requirements that need to change, but the education system before university. If state schools are so much worse than public ones, then surely this is what we should tackle.

So, it's all very well saying 'if you really want to, you can achieve', but I'm not much of an individualist in my views on society, so I can't agree. Sorry. Well done to all those who fought against the odds, I'm not trying to take anything away from you, but I can't help but feel you're a minority.

Whilst that's all fine and dandy, it bears little on the gut wrenching hurt you feel when others in your cohort say "oh, I only had to get AAB". The word Oxbridge, just as an aside, really grates on me.

I don't understand this comment - can you explain a bit more?

Surely how students perceive the decisions made to get them is the least important? Just because it annoyed Adorno doesn't mean it should guide policy based on statistical research?

Yeah, my back-up plan is suggesting doing an ethnography the use of the community's music in a specific church setting (probably in London, just for convenience). I didn't realise it was OK to have a back-up plan - I thought they'd think I'm flakey So it's good to know that - thank you

well, ideally you want to be able to do the project that they've agreed to fund, and of course, if you could say in your application that you had spoken to the community already and they were open to taking part in the research, that makes your proposal a lot stronger. however, if you're not a position to do so, I think it's best to be realistic and write your proposal in a way that makes it clear that you understand that engaging participants in observational work is not always easy, and that you may need to consider a 'plan B'. If i was interviewing you for the studentship, I think asking what you would do if you couldn't get access to the specific community you want to would be the first question I would ask.

however, maybe dont' go just on my opinion - what do others (perhaps those who are further along than me - Ilex?) think?

On my proposal I talked about potential issues that I might have with my proposed research and how I might overcome them (e.g. access). I was also asked about these in my interview. And I'm not doing my PhD in the same way that I proposed, I couldn't get access- its the same overall theme, but different way in. I saw the person in charge of my funding (ESRC via an early form of DTC) a year later and said that I had changed what I was doing and his response was as long as I finished, it didn't matter.

Would it be possible to speak to the community between the period of submitting the proposal and the interview? Because then you could write in the proposal that you are 'in the process of negotiating access.' And I don't think it will make you look flakey if you identify a plan B- the people looking at your proposal will know the realities of the way in which research pans out.

Yeah, my back-up plan is suggesting doing an ethnography the use of the community's music in a specific church setting (probably in London, just for convenience). I didn't realise it was OK to have a back-up plan - I thought they'd think I'm flakey So it's good to know that - thank you

I don't understand this comment - can you explain a bit more?

Hy, Craggy, out of interest, does this research include Northern Ireland? I ask because we don't publish our results, so we never appear in articles discussing the issue on BBC and stuff.

I wasn't disagreeing (if that is indeed what Craggy meant), just asking for a little more elaboration since I wasn't quite sure what she was angling at. That's all...

To explain (myself!), I agree with you that policy definitely shouldn't be made on the basis of hurt feelings, but I do think the broader point that Adorno made about his experience - which, if I understand it correctly, was that the student with the most 'red flags' was given the highest offer - would be worthy of further consideration. It is probably evidence of a lot of other variables coming together (which is certainly the picture that the article Craggy linked to suggests, where they made a higher offer to a student with dodgy schooling where they were worried she would struggle) but from a PR perspective, offer makers should be sensitive to how it looks if reduced offers are going to those in the higher socioeconomic brackets. And I don't *think* Craggy would disagree with the bent of that statement, so I just wanted her to expand a bit on what she meant.

Anyway.

[...] Interviews are the thing that make Oxbridge better at access than other elite Universities. Its the fact that they pour more money into the process of considering applicants that makes them fairer and more inclusive. If you just go on a student's personal statement and grades you are inherently biased against their class. Why? Because poor performing schools are less able to help students with personal statements, and disadvantaged students are less likely to have parents who can help. In terms of academic results, educational attainment is extremely correlated with class and ethnicity in the UK, to the point where your social demographic predicts your grades. [...]

Interviews are not expensive. They require travel costs, and nothing more. While I'm sure this has never been tested, I'm sure if an applicant was unable to come to an interview due to financial constraint, colleges would probably be willing to pay for them to come, or to arrange a Skype interview. [...]

In addition to the above comment I made, I don't really think its that reliable to generalise from one experience. For example, I was ticking the boxes for low income/bad school etc. and I got admitted on AAC (and when I applied, it was actually ABC). So I honestly think that the decisions they make are very fine tuned to the individual and their situation. (Also to the college... admissions tutors in some colleges have different policies to others).

On the context of university admissions, and educational/social inequalities more generally, this is something I've felt increasingly frustrated about for a while, and I really feel like I need to try and do something. I know this sounds stupid, naive, and possibly a bit patronising...but I wondered whether anyone had any experience of the 'mentoring' schemes run by Universities/IntoUniversity and that kind of thing? Are they any good, or are they just a bit middle-class guilt assuaging? I just feel really angry about a lot of things, and that sitting in my office researching my thesis, living in my nice flat, is not really doing much about any of it.

On the context of university admissions, and educational/social inequalities more generally, this is something I've felt increasingly frustrated about for a while, and I really feel like I need to try and do something. I know this sounds stupid, naive, and possibly a bit patronising...but I wondered whether anyone had any experience of the 'mentoring' schemes run by Universities/IntoUniversity and that kind of thing? Are they any good, or are they just a bit middle-class guilt assuaging? I just feel really angry about a lot of things, and that sitting in my office researching my thesis, living in my nice flat, is not really doing much about any of it.