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How can anyone seriously be against capital punishment? Watch

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    (Original post by combbrah)
    you cant reason with these moronic left wing idiots, dont even bother
    I know what you mean, they're nearly as bad as all those daft right wingers who support capital punishment!
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    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    I know what you mean, they're nearly as bad as all those daft right wingers who support capital punishment!
    The OP supports CP. Matter of fact.:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    I disagree, firstly, CP is a issue widespread in the world. Not just the UK, so posting from a country which is getting increasing cases of rape, murder, and stealing is fine and I think is evident. Yes, CP needs to be reconsidered and put back in the UK for this very reason, though at the moment it is safe enough. If the statistics show a very high increase, then CP must be put back in order to lower the crime rates. And a very good reason for this is because the UK enforces the law. India doesn't and its police are corrupt for this very reason. So if India does not enforce her laws, crime rates are going to rise without the police doing anything. However in the UK, law and order has a solid wall here and putting cp will scare many criminals and deter many new ones that come in. Law enforcement in the UK provides an excellent base for CP to deter people from coming into crime. Law enforcement in India is not so strict and not enforced, therefore showing an increasing crime rate.

    Point: The UK holds strong law enforcement, India doesn't, so CP in the UK will deter criminals and possibly reduce crime rates especially in cities and towns.

    Another thing, the last time we had this debate, you called me a troll, an idiot, and a ignorant fool, does this not mean you are contradicting yourself now? Second, you said I had no real evidence to argue on, thirdly they bullied me last time due to me being unable to debate, So I think I have the right to say whatever I like and I will not be told by anyone what to do.
    Of course it's a worldwide issue, but myunderstanding of the thread was that we were talking about the UK.

    But if we look at countries like the UK, which strongly enforce laws and are not corrupt, we've seen capital punishment doesn't deter criminals.

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/disc...rrence-studies

    I never insult or bully anyone, having been through it myself, so I'd like to see the post I supposedly made myself since I take those allegations very seriously. I only ask people if they're trolling if they display typical TSR trolling behaviour, as I wouldn't like to waste my time talking to anyone that isn't being serious. Unfortunately, while I completely respect your political views, (and I mean nothing derogatory by this) they are often the views that trolls tend to use to incite responses. As well as the language/bluntness, interaction with other users and tone that come with some personalities, it's easy to mistake someone being genuine from someone trolling. I apologise if I caused offense, I considered it a rather mild statement/inquiry, and assumed others felt the same.

    Also, having experienced bullying, I've found the best thing to do tends to be not to look to aggressively argue with the other person/people, or to be rude, but to approach them politely and interact with civility, which leads to less conflict and eventually none.

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    (Original post by cowsforsale)
    What if it was your sister who was the murderer?
    Are you an idiot?
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    Wise words! We have reached a consensus

    (Original post by Revisaphobe)
    Assuming that everyone who commits an offence will recommit after being released from jail?
    But definitely speeders first. I think public executions would be best

    Seriously though, I'm surprised that this topic is still getting this much discussion, death penalty has been abolished in both UK and Canada (where I live) for about half a century now. Some gut instinct is just hard to ignore I guess, but I always thought part of being civilized is about how far away we stray from our first instinct, as well as how much thought we put in, in making this society a better place. To reduce crime, we have to truly understand roots of crimes, which is often caused by the huge gap between wealth and the poor, as well as correctional systems which put emphasis on deterrence and punishment but forget about rehabilitation and reintegration to the society. With the exception of a few naturally born psychopath/anti social people, who are rare, most the society, if given the opportunities to live a productive life with family, and friends, and a career... wouldn't want to live a criminal life... the focus, should be giving them a chance like that, the outdated brutalizing mentality "kill them to show the public! make an example out of them!" does not really belong to our developed society.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Let me ask one you thing, if the crime rates in India are so much higher, than how come last year in 2011, that it had lesser crime rates without CP? The UK would do well reinstating it seeing the obvious reaction of demands for CP in India. Why do you refer to an individual? He was a terriost. If you're saying what I posted was fake then just go on google and have a search. My example disproved your point. Countries spend more money on keeping criminals, spending $108 million dollars on Kasab is just as ridiculous as arguing against cp.

    Look at Abu Qatada. The UK is paying £5 million a year to keep him in the country. He should be in prison and locked up. To qoute ''British taxpayers have spent more than £10million on Jordan in a futile battle to return hate preacher Abu Qatada to the Middle East state''

    How much money is it that one country should spend to deport a terriost? Their house is £450,000 tax payer funded. Every penny of it. Should not Abu be in jail? Is that not what you argue for? Why is that he is being kept in the country? If Saddam was executed, why not he? Did you condone the execution of Saddam back then?

    And looking from here

    As previously covered by Examiner.com, the British taxpayers are already funding police security for the convicted terrorist initially at the cost of £10,000 ($15,000) per week.
    That amount has since been revised to £100,000 ($150,000) per week to ensure proper surveillance of the man who was once described as Usama bin Laden's right hand man in Europe..

    So I have bought an example of a terriost, just imagine how many political refugees there are in the UK that have done horrendous crimes and we house them thanks to anti cp people because they argue that every criminal, no matter to the extent of the crime he has done, should be given a second chance.

    So the death of the 23 year old girl went in vain? You are saying the rapists who did this should be jailed but not executed, this has to be answered. You are telling me this issue is not about India, but my question to you is this: If the death of the 23 year indian girl does not bother you, why is the Western Media taking an insight into this raping protest in India if you aren't bothered about it? Why is it producing fresh new statistics that show increasing crime rates in a country that in 2011, had lesser crime rates without cp. How is that now crime rates are suddenly increasing up? Do you have a explanation to this? Do you have something to say for this? Forget about the UK, if crime rates are increasing in countries, then this would show that people are going in favor of CP. Most people in this country would vote to get CP back. Crime rates rising in India show a increasingly favorable factor for CP. We need CP back especially if crime rates are going up in other countries.


    One more thing: Read this carefully, it provides an overwhelming case against your futile and weak based claims.


    Most of what you have said is actually not related to my point, to the point that I think you are completely going off topic and saying things that have little if nothing to do with the argument.
    You have addressed nothing I've said.

    I don't have time to waste.
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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    Of course it's a worldwide issue, but myunderstanding of the thread was that we were talking about the UK.

    But if we look at countries like the UK, which strongly enforce laws and are not corrupt, we've seen capital punishment doesn't deter criminals.

    www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/discussion-recent-deterrence-studies

    I never insult or bully anyone, having been through it myself, so I'd like to see the post I supposedly made myself since I take those allegations very seriously. I only ask people if they're trolling if they display typical TSR trolling behaviour, as I wouldn't like to waste my time talking to anyone that isn't being serious. Unfortunately, while I completely respect your political views, (and I mean nothing derogatory by this) they are often the views that trolls tend to use to incite responses. As well as the language/bluntness, interaction with other users and tone that come with some personalities, it's easy to mistake someone being genuine from someone trolling. I apologise if I caused offense, I considered it a rather mild statement/inquiry, and assumed others felt the same.

    Also, having experienced bullying, I've found the best thing to do tends to be not to look to aggressively argue with the other person/people, or to be rude, but to approach them politely and interact with civility, which leads to less conflict and eventually none.

    Posted from TSR Mobile

    Either you're messing with my head or I'm messing yours, but the link showed nothing to me. I didn't understand it. Second, yes, the UK does enforce law enforcement, but I'm saying CP will deter it effectively which you seem to ignore by saying that it has less crime rates. Then let the UK have less crime rates, CP is there meant to scare the people, intimate them. You'll get much lesser crime rates once you introduce it. The West is still a hundred times more safer than the Asian world, but CP will effectively scare many teenagers who commit crime out there, do you not agree on this point? At least? Use something to intimidate criminals.

    You and many others wouldn't understand me as I'm too straightforward having received a genetic disorder from birth. Which is too many people misinterpret me and therefore if I tried to explain it, most of you are uneducated to even know about it, so I wouldn't bother, it is the worst type of diease you can get and we are generally regarded as fools because we don't understand the world. Well thats true, I never understood the whole thing anyway which is why most of my talks are interpreted too much, I have never meant to offend anyone, its just that I get angry too much, another inherited gene of mine. I've had to learn about the world in a very cold and hard way. Which is why I don't trust it one bit. You did make this post and I would be happy to email you it, for what you did was wrong. I never called you anything yet you called me it.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Either you're messing with my head or I'm messing yours, but the link showed nothing to me. I didn't understand it. Second, yes, the UK does enforce law enforcement, but I'm saying CP will deter it effectively which you seem to ignore by saying that it has less crime rates. Then let the UK have less crime rates, CP is there meant to scare the people, intimate them. You'll get much lesser crime rates once you introduce it. The West is still a hundred times more safer than the Asian world, but CP will effectively scare many teenagers who commit crime out there, do you not agree on this point? At least? Use something to intimidate criminals.

    You and many others wouldn't understand me as I'm too straightforward having received a genetic disorder from birth. Which is too many people misinterpret me and therefore if I tried to explain it, most of you are uneducated to even know about it, so I wouldn't bother, it is the worst type of diease you can get and we are generally regarded as fools because we don't understand the world. Well thats true, I never understood the whole thing anyway which is why most of my talks are interpreted too much, I have never meant to offend anyone, its just that I get angry too much, another inherited gene of mine. I've had to learn about the world in a very cold and hard way. Which is why I don't trust it one bit. You did make this post and I would be happy to email you it, for what you did was wrong. I never called you anything yet you called me it.
    But CP does not deter crimes in societies like ours, as has been shown in links from both myself and another user.
    It does not deter the crime, and it generally costs more. Therefore there is no up side.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    Most of what you have said is actually not related to my point, to the point that I think you are completely going off topic and saying things that have little if nothing to do with the argument.
    You have addressed nothing I've said.

    I don't have time to waste.
    You can go away, you've been wasting most of my time actually and you have simply ignored the points I've made. I have addressed the things you've said, I just think you can't argue this points and are just give it up. You made no points, I can see it very clearly, you made no point what so ever. Period. And yet you claim I haven't met your points? Oh ho ho, this is priceless! Now you can run off while you can. You supported the bullying in the last forum, and what did you say? Come back when you have evidence, I did, and you couldn't deal with it.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    But CP does not deter crimes in societies like ours, as has been shown in links from both myself and another user.
    It does not deter the crime, and it generally costs more. Therefore there is no up side.
    I'm sorry, but your points are weak based, with no evidence provided, you ignore every point of mine and you said I was wasting time. Why talk with me when I'm wasting your time?:confused:
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    You can go away, you've been wasting most of my time actually and you have simply ignored the points I've made. I have addressed the things you've said, I just think you can't argue this points and are just give it up. You made no points, I can see it very clearly, you made no point what so ever. Period. And yet you claim I haven't met your points? Oh ho ho, this is priceless! Now you can run off while you can. You supported the bullying in the last forum, and what did you say? Come back when you have evidence, I did, and you couldn't deal with it.
    I made points and gave evidence before you entered the thread. You then quoted me but have yet to actually address what I originally said.

    I have reiterated above, so will await that answer.
    Also, don't tell me to "go away", its rude and unnecessary.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    I'm sorry, but your points are weak based, with no evidence provided, you ignore every point of mine and you said I was wasting time. Why talk with me when I'm wasting your time?:confused:
    How is my argument weak? I am presenting facts (backed up with links earlier) that prove that it doesn't act as a deterrent (which seems to be your main point). I have answered it dirdctly, referring to my original points.
    As evidence that myself and another user have provided prove, CP in societies similar to does not deter crimes.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I made points and gave evidence before you entered the thread. You then quoted me but have yet to actually address what I originally said.

    I have reiterated above, so will await that answer.
    Also, don't tell me to "go away", its rude and unnecessary.
    What points? You made messages with little statements and short sentences. Exactly where am I to find evidence in this? Look at your posts compared to mine. You have made short little sentences saying I ignore your points when it is actually you who is doing it. I know it. I argued your points, asked questions, yet you couldn't answer it. I told you, I have a genetic disorder, so I'm straight forward, and you can go away, you shouldn't have told me I was wasting your time, I found it rude, hurtful and offensive that you didn't bother to read my post and now you're telling me I'm being rude? Let me remind of you the last debate and then I'll see to it that your behavior over there will be exposed.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    How is my argument weak? I am presenting facts (backed up with links earlier) that prove that it doesn't act as a deterrent (which seems to be your main point). I have answered it dirdctly, referring to my original points.
    As evidence that myself and another user have provided prove, CP in societies similar to does not deter crimes.
    I am sorry, but for the last time, get this into your head. You have provided nothing. NOTHING. So far against me you haven't shown me points. Do you intend me to argue every sentence you make? What have you shown in this post? That CP does not deter crime in one sentence. And you say by that one sentence, you have made a fact. I say it does effectively deter crime if you apply it properly. You are saying it is not, but if those people in India are demanding CP, just imagine what will happen to crime. Just imagine, if the corrupt government is overthrown in 2014, then the non corrupt government will enforce CP. I can not expect to argue with you when you keep on claiming you '' provide'' evidence in one sentence. Sorry, this just won't work.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    What points? You made messages with little statements and short sentences. Exactly where am I to find evidence in this? Look at your posts compared to mine. You have made short little sentences saying I ignore your points when it is actually you who is doing it. I know it. I argued your points, asked questions, yet you couldn't answer it. I told you, I have a genetic disorder, so I'm straight forward, and you can go away, you shouldn't have tole I was wasting your time, I found it rude, hurtful and offensive.
    I didn't say YOU were wasting my time, I said I don't have time to waste when my points are ignored. I have repeated myself again above, please answer that instead of this.
    I apologise if I offended you, that wasn't the intention.

    Writing shorter posts does not mean my points are wrong.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I didn't say YOU were wasting my time, I said I don't have time to waste when my points are ignored. I have repeated myself again above, please answer that instead of this.
    I apologise if I offended you, that wasn't the intention.

    Writing shorter posts does not mean my points are wrong.
    100% wrong. YOU SAID FOR DEFINITE, I WAS WASTING YOUR TIME. GET IT IN TO YOUR HEAD. I don't get you, what points do you make? They're just in short sentences with no evidence. I don't want to debate with someone that aided bullying in the last debate when they knew I wasn't able to debate. I still can't do it. God help me.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    100% wrong. YOU SAID FOR DEFINITE, I WAS WASTING YOUR TIME. GET IT IN TO YOUR HEAD. I don't get you, what points do you make? They're just in short sentences with no evidence. I don't want to debate with someone that aided bullying in the last debate when they knew I wasn't able to debate. I still can't do it. God help me.
    No, I didn't say "you". I said that "I don't have time to waste", meaning I felt I was being ignored, and I couldn't waste time if that was the case. I just apologised for offending, as it wasn't intended; the polite thing is to accept.



    (Original post by The Marshall)
    I am sorry, but for the last time, get this into your head. You have provided nothing. NOTHING. So far against me you haven't shown me points. Do you intend me to argue every sentence you make? What have you shown in this post? That CP does not deter crime in one sentence. And you say by that one sentence, you have made a fact. I say it does effectively deter crime if you apply it properly. You are saying it is not, but if those people in India are demanding CP, just imagine what will happen to crime. Just imagine, if the corrupt government is overthrown in 2014, then the non corrupt government will enforce CP. I can not expect to argue with you when you keep on claiming you '' provide'' evidence in one sentence. Sorry, this just won't work.
    I have proven plenty, before you even joined.
    I made most of my points in post #310, page 16. This is where I wrote my points in more detail.
    In post #317 I provided some evidence, showing how the costs of CP in countries very similar to ours are higher than their costs of imprisoning someone for life.
    In post #363, another user provides evidence that CP does not work as a deterrent in countries like ours. The link is: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/disc...rrence-studies - it actually accumulates evidence from several different sources, all put together on this page, so has a lot to back it up.

    Here is another source showing that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent (using the professional knowledge of criminologists): http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...and-deterrence

    Almost every nation that uses CP have far higher crime rates (and homocide rates) than those that do not (except for one or two exceptions to the rule. They are exceptions because they are a huge minority). Every nation that has CP, and a society very similar to our own, have far higher crime rates and have had many studies on them proving that it does not act as a deterrent.

    So, there is the evidence; I have brought it all together in one post as you didn't seem to believe me when I said I had posted it before (and now I have finally arrived home and sat at my computer, I can type properly rather than trying on my phone).
    CP does not work as a deterrent, and CP costs more in our societies than life imprisonment.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    No, I didn't say "you". I said that "I don't have time to waste", meaning I felt I was being ignored, and I couldn't waste time if that was the case. I just apologised for offending, as it wasn't intended; the polite thing is to accept.





    I have proven plenty, before you even joined.
    I made most of my points in post #310, page 16. This is where I wrote my points in more detail.
    In post #317 I provided some evidence, showing how the costs of CP in countries very similar to ours are higher than their costs of imprisoning someone for life.
    In post #363, another user provides evidence that CP does not work as a deterrent in countries like ours. The link is: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/disc...rrence-studies - it actually accumulates evidence from several different sources, all put together on this page, so has a lot to back it up.

    Here is another source showing that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent (using the professional knowledge of criminologists): http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...and-deterrence

    Almost every nation that uses CP have far higher crime rates (and homocide rates) than those that do not (except for one or two exceptions to the rule. They are exceptions because they are a huge minority). Every nation that has CP, and a society very similar to our own, have far higher crime rates and have had many studies on them proving that it does not act as a deterrent.

    So, there is the evidence; I have brought it all together in one post as you didn't seem to believe me when I said I had posted it before (and now I have finally arrived home and sat at my computer, I can type properly rather than trying on my phone).
    CP does not work as a deterrent, and CP costs more in our societies than life imprisonment.
    Ok, so if the whole evidence then lets get on with it, I can't argue with previous posts as I haven't read them, I only argued on the recent ones you made.

    1) ''Almost every nation that uses CP have far higher crime rates (and homocide rates) than those that do not (except for one or two exceptions to the rule.''

    I know you won't like it when I bring India up, but you must consider the crime rates for this now.

    About 63,342 cases were pending in the Supreme Court as of July 31, of which 67 percent have been in process for more than a year, government data show.

    This is Government data. And India doesn't use much CP at all really.

    The next data

    dozens of other rapes, often by multiple assailants, have been reported by the media across India. More than 24,000 rape cases were registered with the authorities in 2011, a 9% increase on the previous year.

    This was assembled and taken from the Indian Police. If you're saying that as you're saying right now that those countries which have CP have higher crime rates, then what is this showing?

    2)In post #363, another user provides evidence that CP does not work as a deterrent in countries like ours

    Yes, but if applied correctly and with brutal force, I can tell you it would work very well. Saddam Hussein's Iraq was more safer because the jails were so nasty back then.

    3) Every nation that has CP, and a society very similar to our own, have far higher crime rates and have had many studies on them proving that it does not act as a deterrent.

    India rarely used CP in anything, so why now is it showing high crime rates on the rise? Surely as you're saying those country with CP have high crime rate, but I think you are contradicting yourself here, you say that those countries with CP have high crime rates, but if I remember on the last debate, you provided me with a link showing those countries which hadn't used CP at all and India was on the list. So now it is getting high crime rates. Do you have anything to say that it has rarely used CP, and now? CP would act as a deterrent in countries if the law was enforced.

    I'm only using India as one example, with the UK, I'm not sure, but I'll try and find something then for it.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Either you're messing with my head or I'm messing yours, but the link showed nothing to me. I didn't understand it. Second, yes, the UK does enforce law enforcement, but I'm saying CP will deter it effectively which you seem to ignore by saying that it has less crime rates. Then let the UK have less crime rates, CP is there meant to scare the people, intimate them. You'll get much lesser crime rates once you introduce it. The West is still a hundred times more safer than the Asian world, but CP will effectively scare many teenagers who commit crime out there, do you not agree on this point? At least? Use something to intimidate criminals.

    You and many others wouldn't understand me as I'm too straightforward having received a genetic disorder from birth. Which is too many people misinterpret me and therefore if I tried to explain it, most of you are uneducated to even know about it, so I wouldn't bother, it is the worst type of diease you can get and we are generally regarded as fools because we don't understand the world. Well thats true, I never understood the whole thing anyway which is why most of my talks are interpreted too much, I have never meant to offend anyone, its just that I get angry too much, another inherited gene of mine. I've had to learn about the world in a very cold and hard way. Which is why I don't trust it one bit. You did make this post and I would be happy to email you it, for what you did was wrong. I never called you anything yet you called me it.
    But it has been proven it doesn't reduce crime rates in countries that are similar. Crime rates don't fall when capital punishment is introduced, and it isn't a deterrent.

    Think about the conditions most murders are carried out in. Moments of fear, anger, frustration, rage, moments in which the person either isn't thinking about the potential consequences or doesn't care.

    I didn't say anything about crime rates in that post.:confused:

    Saying we're uneducated is quite insulting, and especially considering there are many people on these forums doing medicine at Oxford or at an Ivy League uni, I don't really know what gives you claim to say you're more intelligent than all of them? Are you a member of Mensa or a top academic or something else that would give you claim to being far more intelligent than everyone else on TSR?

    I have a severely autistic cousin who I spent the past 7 summers with, so if your condition is similar to that, I'll understand it.

    Please may you send me a PM quoting this post/with a link or post it here?



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    (Original post by the mezzil)
    Simplistic argumental point. I could just counter that and say say two negatives do make a postive though.
    I'm not saying his statement is worth anything... but yours is significantly worse for strictly logical point of view.

    lets say "negatives" := "wrongs" for comparison

    consider the statement:

    'In general some combination of two 'negatives' does not make a positive'

    this negative statement is actually true - note that the statement is not 'some combination of two negatives "cannot" make a positive' - therefore the existence of some counter-examples, where the two negatives make a positive does not actually falsify the statement as it is still not strictly true in generality. For it to be true in generality it must be provable that in every case the two negatives make a positive.

    your statement is a positive assertion that "two negatives make a positive", which is invalidated if there exists a counter example (which you have already seen).

    if you can't see why this is the case - attend a beginners class on maths and / or logic
 
 
 
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