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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    But it has been proven it doesn't reduce crime rates in countries that are similar. Crime rates don't fall when capital punishment is introduced, and it isn't a deterrent.

    Think about the conditions most murders are carried out in. Moments of fear, anger, frustration, rage, moments in which the person either isn't thinking about the potential consequences or doesn't care.

    I didn't say anything about crime rates in that post.:confused:

    Saying we're uneducated is quite insulting, and especially considering there are many people on these forums doing medicine at Oxford or at an Ivy League uni, I don't really know what gives you claim to say you're more intelligent than all of them? Are you a member of Mensa or a top academic or something else that would give you claim to being far more intelligent than everyone else on TSR?

    I have a severely autistic cousin who I spent the past 7 summers with, so if your condition is similar to that, I'll understand it.

    Please may you send me a PM quoting this post/with a link or post it here?



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Ok, so if it isn't a deterrent then how come crime, lets just say in India are rising? They're not using CP are they?

    Conditions? In corrupted countries its usually the ministers that do all this work and pay money to these criminals. I am not sympathetic towards them in any way.

    I don't know when I said I was intelligent. I didn't even say that. I'm not intelligent, who ever said I was? I haven't done a MBA, BACC, or any of those collage or Uni degrees to say I'm clever, I haven't become the mp for one day! :confused: I meant that by being uneducated is that not many of you know the genetic disorder I inherit. Which is why none of you will ever understand it. I suffer from Autistic Spectrum Disorder. And to try and tell you people would be something else, your reaction is blank.

    Very happy to send you the post by email.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Ok, so if the whole evidence then lets get on with it, I can't argue with previous posts as I haven't read them, I only argued on the recent ones you made.

    1) ''Almost every nation that uses CP have far higher crime rates (and homocide rates) than those that do not (except for one or two exceptions to the rule.''

    I know you won't like it when I bring India up, but you must consider the crime rates for this now.

    About 63,342 cases were pending in the Supreme Court as of July 31, of which 67 percent have been in process for more than a year, government data show.

    This is Government data. And India doesn't use much CP at all really.

    The next data

    dozens of other rapes, often by multiple assailants, have been reported by the media across India. More than 24,000 rape cases were registered with the authorities in 2011, a 9% increase on the previous year.

    This was assembled and taken from the Indian Police. If you're saying that as you're saying right now that those countries which have CP have higher crime rates, then what is this showing?

    2)In post #363, another user provides evidence that CP does not work as a deterrent in countries like ours

    Yes, but if applied correctly and with brutal force, I can tell you it would work very well. Saddam Hussein's Iraq was more safer because the jails were so nasty back then.

    3) Every nation that has CP, and a society very similar to our own, have far higher crime rates and have had many studies on them proving that it does not act as a deterrent.

    India rarely used CP in anything, so why now is it showing high crime rates on the rise? Surely as you're saying those country with CP have high crime rate, but I think you are contradicting yourself here, you say that those countries with CP have high crime rates, but if I remember on the last debate, you provided me with a link showing those countries which hadn't used CP at all and India was on the list. So now it is getting high crime rates. Do you have anything to say that it has rarely used CP, and now? CP would act as a deterrent in countries if the law was enforced.

    I'm only using India as one example, with the UK, I'm not sure, but I'll try and find something then for it.
    I just brought my previous points and evidence to that post, so you can answer them.

    1. What you've shown me is that crime rates and reports of rapes in India have risen, but 9% over one year. They do have capital punishment (although it isn't implimented much), so I don't really know how you think this statistic proves me wrong.
    Seeing as you've said this in answer to my point that almost all countries that us CP have higher crime rates (and specifically homicide rates) than us, can you give me an example that disproves this?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate - Here is the countries with stats on intentional homicide. Almost all of those with the lowest rates of all have no death penalty.

    2. Can you please prove to me that "applying it correctly" changes the pure facts provided in the evidence? That evidence is provided from real statistics and results from countries around the world; the conclusions are clear, and created from experts.
    Iraq was not a safe place under Hussein, at all. Please provide evidence.

    3. You are speculating; how can you prove that using it with more force would act as a deterrent. All of the evidence shows otherwise.
    India isn't one of the countries in my point (the one you quoted here) which comes under "which have societies similar to ours". This is an important factor (as we are discussing if it would work in the UK), because how things work in a very different society will not work the same way here. If we are to draw comparisons, it must be from another country that is very similar to us with regards to our society.
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    (Original post by W-Three)
    Because being painfully executed accomplishes nothing. They don't learn from their punishment because they die, so the punishment is pointless outside of the seflish need for revenge. I'm sure the people who commit these acts justify their actions just as you would justify brutally killing them.

    I also don't believe violent dogs should be put down. But it's slightly different which I'll explain next.





    We are born to a family we don't choose, in a society we don't choose with genes we don't choose. These factors make up who we are, which includes our ability to reflect on those factors and attempt to make a change. Any change must come from an external force, this is where punishment and rehabilitation comes in. Unlike some animals humans (as well as others) have a well developed brain which allows our behavior to be changed more than other animals, but this change cannot come from within.

    So, everyone deserves a chance to be a fully functioning part of society, and killing someone as punishment does nothing to make that person change.
    Then don't execute them. Cut off their hands and make them live the rest of their life like that. That's a sure enough deterrent for me at least.


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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I just brought my previous points and evidence to that post, so you can answer them.

    1. What you've shown me is that crime rates and reports of rapes in India have risen, but 9% over one year. They do have capital punishment (although it isn't implimented much), so I don't really know how you think this statistic proves me wrong.
    Seeing as you've said this in answer to my point that almost all countries that us CP have higher crime rates (and specifically homicide rates) than us, can you give me an example that disproves this?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate - Here is the countries with stats on intentional homicide. Almost all of those with the lowest rates of all have no death penalty.

    2. Can you please prove to me that "applying it correctly" changes the pure facts provided in the evidence? That evidence is provided from real statistics and results from countries around the world; the conclusions are clear, and created from experts.
    Iraq was not a safe place under Hussein, at all. Please provide evidence.

    3. You are speculating; how can you prove that using it with more force would act as a deterrent. All of the evidence shows otherwise.
    India isn't one of the countries in my point (the one you quoted here) which comes under "which have societies similar to ours". This is an important factor (as we are discussing if it would work in the UK), because how things work in a very different society will not work the same way here. If we are to draw comparisons, it must be from another country that is very similar to us with regards to our society.
    Ah, but this was Government Data shown, this was fresh and recent. This statistic shows that crime rates are rising up in a country which rarely uses CP. It shows that crime rates in a country are going up. That would be worrying. I think I have some countries which show that despite using CP, they have lesser crime rates.

    Take Japan. Crime in Japan is lower than in many first world countries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...-Kingdom/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/India/Japan/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...herlands/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...Malaysia/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Japan/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...ia/Japan/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Canada/Japan/Crime

    This is a list comparing most of Japan's crime rates with other countries, I think you'll find something missing in your works.

    I will answer the rest later, need to go now, but just have a look at these links.

    2) You don't need evidence to find it. Baghdad was considered the most safest city in the world. Go on google and search for it. Even the evidence I posted was real and was taken and was composed. Over 572 rape cases were reported last year.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Ah, but this was Government Data shown, this was fresh and recent. This statistic shows that crime rates are rising up in a country which rarely uses CP. It shows that crime rates in a country are going up. That would be worrying. I think I have some countries which show that despite using CP, they have lesser crime rates.

    Take Japan. Crime in Japan is lower than in many first world countries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...-Kingdom/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/India/Japan/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...herlands/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...Malaysia/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Germany/Japan/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...ia/Japan/Crime

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Canada/Japan/Crime

    This is a list comparing most of Japan's crime rates with other countries, I think you'll find something missing in your works.

    I will answer the rest later, need to go now, but just have a look at these links.

    2) You don't need evidence to find it. Baghdad was considered the most safest city in the world. Go on google and search for it. Even the evidence I posted was real and was taken and was composed. Over 572 rape cases were reported last year.
    1. Using a hypothetical link in India is not proving your point, and Japan is ONE country (compared to the hundreds I used to support my points.
    You haven't disproved any points I made.

    2. You do need evidence, that is how you prove your point in a debate.

    I need to sleep myself as it's been a very long day.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Ok, so if it isn't a deterrent then how come crime, lets just say in India are rising? They're not using CP are they?

    Conditions? In corrupted countries its usually the ministers that do all this work and pay money to these criminals. I am not sympathetic towards them in any way.

    I don't know when I said I was intelligent. I didn't even say that. I'm not intelligent, who ever said I was? I haven't done a MBA, BACC, or any of those collage or Uni degrees to say I'm clever, I haven't become the mp for one day! :confused: I meant that by being uneducated is that not many of you know the genetic disorder I inherit. Which is why none of you will ever understand it. I suffer from Autistic Spectrum Disorder. And to try and tell you people would be something else, your reaction is blank.

    Very happy to send you the post by email.
    Except, capital punishment IS legal in India.

    But in order to know how to stop them, we must understand them. If we really want to make crime rates go down, capital punishment will do very little as it doesn't deter people who are willing to commit murder. Reducing poverty, increasing social mobility, increasing the quality of education, better mental health care, reducing unemployment, etc, all help lower crime rates as they help prevent the environments from which many murderers emerge, and the conditions which push them towards committing the crime. Shoplifting is an example of one of the many other crimes which would be reduced were we to focus on these issues.

    But most people in the UK do know about autism. Most of my friends have meet my severely autistic cousin, and are very understanding.
    I know an awful lot about your condition, though my knowledge is more of people further down the spectrum. The fact you're even able to have this conversation with me shows you're less severe than my cousin.

    Yep, PM it too me.

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    Okay it has probably been said already but I am just quick replying. I myself do not have a problem with the idea of capital punishment. However the problem lays when a verdict is wrong and later found out to be. They have then killed an innocent peraon and in this day and age that is something that the government can not afford to happen.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    1. Using a hypothetical link in India is not proving your point, and Japan is ONE country (compared to the hundreds I used to support my points.
    You haven't disproved any points I made.

    2. You do need evidence, that is how you prove your point in a debate.

    I need to sleep myself as it's been a very long day.
    Yes, yes, Japan is a country that has CP despite the fact that if you compare them to other country's crime rates, its lower. Even the Japanese PM is supportive of this.

    Friday 30 March 2012 - Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda has defended the country's use of the death penalty, days after three death-row inmates were hanged.
    "I have no plans to do away with the death penalty," Mr Noda said, according to the Kyodo news agency.
    Thursday's executions were Japan's first since July 2010.
    Japan is one of the few advanced industrialized nations to retain the death penalty. It is usually reserved for multiple murders.
    "Taking into consideration a situation where the number of heinous crimes has not decreased, I find it difficult to abolish the death penalty immediately," Mr Noda said.
    "We must carefully weigh the nature of the death penalty from various standpoints, while giving sufficient attention to public opinion," he continued, pointing out that in 2009, 85.6% of those polled in a government survey supported the measure.


    Look at this link comparing UK crimes with Japan.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...-Kingdom/Crime

    Shows more CP is needed for countries like the UK.

    And list of countries which use CP

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_...y#The_Americas

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_...nt_by_country#

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore

    Singapore would be the most safest country depending on crime.

    I'm trying to find other countries if you would let me find it instead of disproving every point I make when you know I am weak at debating. I think the reason I'm not disproving your points is because you're just ignoring them. The thing is, I don't think we can convince you left wingers about anything. You're very unlikely to accept what even the best debator for cp would say. I'm confident of it. So then what's the point?

    Have a look at this survey.
    http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/350382...penalty-survey


    2. I provide more evidence, give me time and I'll provide it, I already said one evidence!!! 572 cases reported last year!!! Thats not good. Not good for your lot who try to argue that those countries with CP have higher crime rates.
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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    Except, capital punishment IS legal in India.

    But in order to know how to stop them, we must understand them. If we really want to make crime rates go down, capital punishment will do very little as it doesn't deter people who are willing to commit murder. Reducing poverty, increasing social mobility, increasing the quality of education, better mental health care, reducing unemployment, etc, all help lower crime rates as they help prevent the environments from which many murderers emerge, and the conditions which push them towards committing the crime. Shoplifting is an example of one of the many other crimes which would be reduced were we to focus on these issues.

    But most people in the UK do know about autism. Most of my friends have meet my severely autistic cousin, and are very understanding.
    I know an awful lot about your condition, though my knowledge is more of people further down the spectrum. The fact you're even able to have this conversation with me shows you're less severe than my cousin.

    Yep, PM it too me.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Criminal ranks is very simple to understand. The ones which are supported by ministers is evident, the ones which join mafia or yakuza, or the lower ones which resort to crime in every extent. Robbers, its a vast empire.

    While I agree with the developing bit, I do not believe it is a deterrent towards crime. Crime still exists in the West. Yet it is done in sex trafficking, immigration issues, killings of families, people being stabbed to death. The best deterrent towards crime is to play its own game. Use the police to effectively deal with crime when in history they've never been able to do unless they've had a good leader. What else is the police for then? To deal with crime.

    Most people know what autism is? I told one of my mates one day, and he told me, what the **** is that? I'm more severe when I get angry, my parents literally ironed me out here but I guess I still have weakness inside me, I'm lucky that I'm being able to talk on here, not many parents understand autistic children and not many autistic children do the things I do. Do you know how hard it is for us to explain things? I seriously lack social skills outside but here I'm talking about god knows what. I seriously lack at debates. No wonder I'm such a idiot.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Yes, yes, Japan is a country that has CP despite the fact that if you compare them to other country's crime rates, its lower. I'm trying to find other countries if you would let me find.

    2. I provide more evidence.
    1. As I said, Japan is only one country. It is the exception to the rule (which I already mentioned existed myself); there are always exceptions to rules.
    The point is that almost every other country responds in the complete opposite way to this with CP (and there is far more of an argument that the lower crime rate would be due to different factors, seeing as it is the exception to the rule). This is even more valid when you look at countries which are far more similar to us in the way their society works (because, after all, we're discussing how CP would/wouldn't work in the UK).
    So stating that Japan has a low crime rate does not disprove the fact that hundreds of other countries back up my point instead.

    2. I'll await that evidence.
    Meanwhile, I really must go to sleep. So I will speak another time.
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    When you've known people wrongly convicted of **** it is pretty obvious how people can be against it...
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    (Original post by combbrah)
    Dogs that attack and injure people are put down. why these scum are not brutally and painfully executed i will never know. there are some things the middle east got spot on



    what the **** am i reading
    dogs arent as valued as human beings.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    Criminal ranks is very simple to understand. The ones which are supported by ministers is evident, the ones which join mafia or yakuza, or the lower ones which resort to crime in every extent. Robbers, its a vast empire.

    While I agree with the developing bit, I do not believe it is a deterrent towards crime. Crime still exists in the West. Yet it is done in sex trafficking, immigration issues, killings of families, people being stabbed to death. The best deterrent towards crime is to play its own game. Use the police to effectively deal with crime when in history they've never been able to do unless they've had a good leader. What else is the police for then? To deal with crime.

    Most people know what autism is? I told one of my mates one day, and he told me, what the **** is that? I'm more severe when I get angry, my parents literally ironed me out here but I guess I still have weakness inside me, I'm lucky that I'm being able to talk on here, not many parents understand autistic children and not many autistic children do the things I do. Do you know how hard it is for us to explain things? I seriously lack social skills outside but here I'm talking about god knows what. I seriously lack at debates. No wonder I'm such a idiot.
    I don't understand the relevance of that first point?

    The developing isn't about."deterring" crime. It's about creating a society in which most people don't consider committing crime as they have no reason to resort too it. The police are there to stop crime, as no free human society will be crime free. We can, however, reduce crime rates as much as possible.




    Where do you live?

    In my surrounding area/borough/county/section of the country, there is a lot of support for diagnosed autistic people. There are special schools, therapists, specialists, etc. and most people know the basics of the condition. (It's even present in popular culture, on TV.)

    Yes, too an extent I do know. I obviously can't uderstand fully, but I've spent most of my life knowing and trying to help/understand a severely autistic person.

    If you want some links to support groups, specialists, etc. or to carry on this conversation, PM me as it's off topic.

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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    I don't understand the relevance of that first point?

    The developing isn't about."deterring" crime. It's about creating a society in which most people don't consider committing crime as they have no reason to resort too it. The police are there to stop crime, as no free human society will be crime free. We can, however, reduce crime rates as much as possible.




    Where do you live?

    In my surrounding area/borough/county/section of the country, there is a lot of support for diagnosed autistic people. There are special schools, therapists, specialists, etc. and most people know the basics of the condition. (It's even present in popular culture, on TV.)

    Yes, too an extent I do know. I obviously can't uderstand fully, but I've spent most of my life knowing and trying to help/understand a severely autistic person.

    If you want some links to support groups, specialists, etc. or to carry on this conversation, PM me as it's off topic.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I mean criminals can be divided into ranks. Ones with political support, one with organised crime, and one with low forms of crimes. So to give sympathetic support towards them is not what I would do

    Really the police should be doing something about crime. I'm wondering now as to why no one has mentioned using the police.:confused: A very confusing thought.

    Me? Hampshire. Close to London. I've never been in one of those special schools, just mainstream, I've been bullied and still am, but I've learnt how to stand up to it. Yeah if you're willing to talk about this then pm me.
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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    I mean criminals can be divided into ranks. Ones with political support, one with organised crime, and one with low forms of crimes. So to give sympathetic support towards them is not what I would do

    Really the police should be doing something about crime. I'm wondering now as to why no one has mentioned using the police.:confused: A very confusing thought.

    Me? Hampshire. Close to London. I've never been in one of those special schools, just mainstream, I've been bullied and still am, but I've learnt how to stand up to it. Yeah if you're willing to talk about this then pm me.
    I don't particularly agree with that ranking system, I'd say plenty of murderers are people who got into a fight with someone and acted extremely.

    There's not much more the police can really do. What do you want them too be used for? The forces.are quite incompetent in terms of paperwork, internal issues, processing issues, etc., but beyond.those I don't see anything particularly revolutionary they could do.


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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    I don't particularly agree with that ranking system, I'd say plenty of murderers are people who got into a fight with someone and acted extremely.

    There's not much more the police can really do. What do you want them too be used for? The forces.are quite incompetent in terms of paperwork, internal issues, processing issues, etc., but beyond.those I don't see anything particularly revolutionary they could do.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    You may not agree, but in the Asian world, thats what its mostly composed off. Police should have better leaders. As they show in the movies. But god knows whether one day the police will be better or not. Armed Citizenry were still better at their job in the past.
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    (Original post by combbrah)
    After reading cases like the Delhi rape incident. "The victim was found with only 5% of her intestines left inside of her. A doctor at the hospital later stated that the "rod was inserted into her and it was pulled out with so much force that the act brought out her intestines along. That is probably the only thing that explains such severe damage to her intestines."

    Why are people who do things like this still considered human and treated as such. **** is wrong with the world
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion
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    For the simple reasons that a) it's playing God, b) it's an easy way out for someone who does actually feel remorse or guilt and most importantly c) you can't appeal being dead and you can pardon an innocent person if they're in jail!

    Having said that my opinion is there may be cases where it can apply. I.e. where video and genetic evidence is irrefutable for 1st degree murder. It would be unlikely to apply in the case you refer to because she is still alive, a life for a life may be acceptable perhaps if guilt is 1000%.


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    (Original post by The Marshall)
    So what you're saying is that those female students in Dehli which are demanding cp are moronic left wing idiots when India is the world's seventh most dangerous country for women to live in. And you say that those rapists should be given a chance to speak when they've raped women? Who's the idiot now? You are. Because you either must have criminal links, which is why many of you anti cp people would allow criminals to get on with what they do. Its a conspiracy goddamn it!
    Clearly you're quite upset by this situation, but Indias social and justice problems don't, in my opinion, justify executing people. Simple as that.
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    (Original post by joey81)
    Having said that my opinion is there may be cases where it can apply. I.e. where video and genetic evidence is irrefutable for 1st degree murder. It would be unlikely to apply in the case you refer to because she is still alive, a life for a life may be acceptable perhaps if guilt is 1000%.
    But you can't get 1000%... or even 100%.
 
 
 
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