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How can anyone seriously be against capital punishment? Watch

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    (Original post by the mezzil)
    So either way he was proved without reasonable doubt that he was guilty yes? The end outcome was the going to be the same even though he tried to outsmart the system yes?
    Yes. But that wasn't my point.
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    (Original post by k_bourne)
    But there is no evidence to back up your claim that it works as a deterrent, so your point is moot.
    There are evidence. South Africa being one of them.
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    It is very simple equations. If you lessen the consequences of crime, then crime increases.

    Abolition cheapened innocent human life by lessening the consequences of taking innocent life -- today, innocent life has been so devalued that the average price one pays for taking it is just over 13 years in jail.

    It was predicted at the time of abolition that murder rates, and crime in general, would increase dramaticially.....and they were right.

    The murder rate in 1950 was 7.9 per million population and reached a peak in 1995 at 14.5.....it's come down slightly since then but is sill far higher than in 1950.

    look at this graph. From the mid 50s, when first phase of Abolition was introduced, crime in general starts to rise......and by mid 60s when total abolition is introduced it becomes dramatic.

    There were Around 10 indictable offences per thousand population in 1950 and a peak at 89.1 in 2007.

    http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...9/rp99-111.pdf
    ( page 14 )

    people seem to think you can fundamentally change a system without fundamentally changing its outcomes.....Britain fundamentally changed ( and weakened ) its justice system which in turn, fundamentally changed ( and increased ) the crime rates.

    its just simply irrational to believe you can change one without the other.
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    The state has no right to choose who deserves to live or die. The state already has so much power over individuals lives - education, health, housing etc. Giving a group then control over your fundemental right to live is wrong.
    Especially as everyone no matter who you are or where you come from has the right to live.


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    (Original post by Post121)
    I don't think anyone is arguing to put mentally ill rapists on capital punishment.

    I just don't get why people are persistently using anomaly/outlier cases as evidence against capital punishment's problem. And they tend to ignore these cases are usually treated differently under the law i.e. mentally ill criminal are sent to mental hospitals.

    Other than pure moral objections, all posts here against capital punishments are filled with straw man arguments.
    I wasn't using this anomaly to prove my point. I hate sophistry! It was more of a reminder than it was a point. Also, since rape is global, in the US, it's cheaper to imprison someone who is mentally unstable than it is to treat them, and I expect that is the case in many other countries.

    Granted, the slippery-slope argument is also weak, but it does inject some pragmatism into an otherwise repetitive debate.

    And it's true, I can't think of any social, economical or environmental reasons to ban capital punishment. But morality by itself is strong enough. Oh, and the Declaration of Human Rights. Nearly forgot that :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Post121)
    There are evidence. South Africa being one of them.
    ss
    You can't use a country that has undergone a lot of and is undergoing a lot of social change for stats.

    And besides which, when they did have the death penalty Johannesburg was known as the Murder captial of the world.


    And if you really want to use South Africa as an example, why not use this?

    The murder rate has increased by an order of magnitude in South Africa during the last 40 years,[7] though it has fallen from 66.9 per 100,000 people in 1994–95 (death penalty abolished in '95) to 37.3 in 2008–09.
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    (Original post by Ellie Scarlett)
    The state has no right to choose who deserves to live or die. The state already has so much power over individuals lives - education, health, housing etc. Giving a group then control over your fundemental right to live is wrong.
    Especially as everyone no matter who you are or where you come from has the right to live.


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    The state took away the right to administer justice from the people. It's the state who now think it acceptable to release dangerous, violent criminals back out onto the streets ( who then reoffend )despite majority support for capital punishment and overwhelming support for life actually meaning life.

    what about victims of murderers? What about their fundamental right to life?.....On average, 3 innocent people are murdered every year by released murderers.
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    The Ian Hislop video is great- gives a great insight.
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    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    And besides which, when they did have the death penalty Johannesburg was known as the Murder captial of the world.
    Don't know where you got that idea from. Johannesburg is known as the murder capital of the world since the rise of homicide rate after the end of apartheid. You can find this fact in their national popular newspaper agency called the Star.

    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    ss
    You can't use a country that has undergone a lot of and is undergoing a lot of social change for stats....

    ... And if you really want to use South Africa as an example, why not use this?

    The murder rate has increased by an order of magnitude in South Africa during the last 40 years,[7] though it has fallen from 66.9 per 100,000 people in 1994–95 (death penalty abolished in '95) to 37.3 in 2008–09.
    It appears that you are using the period of data where there is significant turmoil.
    Why not throw away the period of data where apartheid struggle reaches height of its struggle?

    During that period, law and order is near collapse and there was tons of politically motivated killing among ANC and its other African opposition parties. With police more concerned to maintaining apartheid than security, it's unsurprising you have higher homicide rates.
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    (Original post by the mezzil)
    Not really I've seen the statistics many times, I understand them and it is obviously a grave mistake and heartbraking for the families. But that still isn't a good enough reason to deny justice to other, who have been convicted. Moreover i'm not advocating capital punishment as such, more like torture, deaths to easy. Again I will state that you cannot argue that someone like Adam Lanza/ Raol Moat/ Osama bin laden is innocent. You simply just can't, the overwhelming evidence points the other way.

    Moreover I disagree with your last point, I believe death is justified for those who deserve it (although I would prefer torture) and death/ torture should only be used in extreme cases not used willy nilly. I'm also a firm believer in the just war theory, so saying that doesn't really impact on me. Yes it is not nice, but sometimes it is right, justified and neccesary.
    But what does the death penalty accomplish that high security life imprisonment does not?

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      I support death penalty because I do not want to be paying for them. That is all.
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      (Original post by Sheldor)
      But what does the death penalty accomplish that high security life imprisonment does not?

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      Criminals get a cushy life in jail. I mean there's even talk on giving them votes!
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      (Original post by Revisaphobe)
      I wasn't using this anomaly to prove my point. I hate sophistry! It was more of a reminder than it was a point. Also, since rape is global, in the US, it's cheaper to imprison someone who is mentally unstable than it is to treat them, and I expect that is the case in many other countries.

      Granted, the slippery-slope argument is also weak, but it does inject some pragmatism into an otherwise repetitive debate.

      And it's true, I can't think of any social, economical or environmental reasons to ban capital punishment. But morality by itself is strong enough. Oh, and the Declaration of Human Rights. Nearly forgot that :rolleyes:
      I have nothing to say about your moral objection to the problem. But I would want to say policies, across the world, violates the Declaration of Human Rights to some degree due to pragmatism. To be against capital of punishment solely on Human Rights' position would open a can of worms against nearly all policies around the world if you don't appeal to double standards.
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      (Original post by HollyB_C)
      I support death penalty because I do not want to be paying for them. That is all.
      But you'll be paying for all their appeals and somewhere to house them and their execution.
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        (Original post by OU Student)
        But you'll be paying for all their appeals and somewhere to house them and their execution.
        Is that cost really comparable to years of imprisonment??
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        (Original post by HollyB_C)
        Is that cost really comparable to years of imprisonment??
        Yep.

        www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

        www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42


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        (Original post by the mezzil)
        Criminals get a cushy life in jail. I mean there's even talk on giving them votes!
        So why not advocate harsher prisons instead of death?

        (What does the death penalty actually accomplish beyond some twisted ideal of revenge that judicial systems shouldn't be built on?)

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        Where's all this evidence that people have a cushy life in prison?
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        (Original post by Post121)
        I have nothing to say about your moral objection to the problem. But I would want to say policies, across the world, violates the Declaration of Human Rights to some degree due to pragmatism. To be against capital of punishment solely on Human Rights' position would open a can of worms against nearly all policies around the world if you don't appeal to double standards.
        I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one am against any policy or law that rids people of their human rights. I'm not just against capital punishment, hence it is not double standards. It is merely an unfortunate fact that there are many laws which do violate our human rights, but that doesn't mean we can't object to one more.
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        (Original post by k_bourne)
        I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one am against any policy or law that rids people of their human rights. I'm not just against capital punishment, hence it is not double standards. It is merely an unfortunate fact that there are many laws which do violate our human rights, but that doesn't mean we can't object to one more.
        No, it's fine if your objections are consistent. My challenge arises when the objections are inconsistent as shown by previous posters.
       
       
       
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