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    I agree that there are now too many micky mouse degrees about.

    But I also think that there are also too many degrees out there for vocational jobs that shouldn't need a degree, they're not micky mouse degrees, but should only need apprenticeships/NVQs, like they have done in the past. There are many jobs that you could do until recently with NVQs and other such qualifications, that you now need to go to uni to do. It's just making more red tape and more debt.

    Who else agrees?

    I do think that they're worthwhile jobs and I respect anyone who works honestly for a living,


    Another point I should make is that people who work for just over the minimum wage with there job after getting there degree can't be good for the economy. With the way student loans work, people like him will barely pay any of their loan off, so the government who ultimately give out this money is getting poorer (even if you include the small amount of extra income tax the government would recieve) and the unis richer. Obviously this doesn't apply to every vocational job, but for some such as those where most of the jobs are on or slightly above the minimum wage.

    I do think that these people need training by the way. But why aren't NVQs and apprenticeships etc good enough anymore, they have been for several years now. That's the main issue here.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    I agree that there are now too many micky mouse degrees about.

    But I also think that there are also too many degrees out there for vocational jobs that shouldn't need a degree. There are many jobs that you could do until recently with NVQs and other such qualifications, that you now need to go to uni to do.

    Who else agrees?
    Such as?
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    (Original post by Tronick)
    Such as?
    I edited my OP. I was being careful not to word it in a way not to offend people who do such courses. Like I said, they're doing a good job, I couldn't cope with working in a care home, but is it really necessary for them to go to uni?
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    The question here is: Why do you care?
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    (Original post by thecookiemonster)
    The question here is: Why do you care?
    Don't you care about the national debt.

    It's not their fault for increasing it though. It's the fault of whoever is saying these jobs need degrees. If you go to uni, the government basically gives you the loan. But for these jobs, you end up earning barely over the minimum wage, so pay hardly any of it back, so the government is out of pocket, even if you include the (small) amount of income tax you would pay to the government.

    But like I said, that doesn't apply to every vocational job. It's the ones where almost every position is on or slightly above the minimum wage that are the issue here.
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    Agreed. When I started studying in the UK I was baffled by nursing and midwifery being an academic degree :lolwut:
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    Don't you care about the national debt.

    It's not their fault for increasing it though. It's the fault of whoever is saying these jobs need degrees. If you go to uni, the government basically gives you the loan. But for these jobs, you end up earning barely over the minimum wage, so pay hardly any of it back, so the government is out of pocket, even if you include the (small) amount of income tax you would pay to the government.
    Do you have any statistics to back this up?
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    I agree that there are now too many micky mouse degrees about.

    But I also think that there are also too many degrees out there for vocational jobs that shouldn't need a degree. There are many jobs that you could do until recently with NVQs and other such qualifications, that you now need to go to uni to do. It's just making more red tape and more debt.

    Who else agrees?

    I do think that they're worthwhile jobs and I respect anyone who works honestly for a living, for example my boyfriends brother who works with the mentally ill. He has something like nvq qualifications, but says that anyone who now trains to do the same thing as him has to go to uni. But do they really need a degree to do such jobs? he's just looking after them. If there is some medical issue then a nurse/doctor is called.

    Another point I should make is that people like my boyfriends brother work for just over the minimum wage. With the way student loans work, people like him will barely pay any of their loan off, so the government who ultimately give out this money is getting poorer and the unis richer.
    Maybe people now have to go to Uni as there is competition for vocational jobs. Too many people with the same qualifications. People apply for my Mum's job (laboratory technician in a cytogenetics laboratory) with Masters and PhD's because there are just so many people with the same skills.
    I agree and disagree. I don't think people should have to attend Uni for some vocational courses, as I believe apprenticeships offer better preparation. However, I don't believe in calling them micky mouse degrees. People's choice of further study shouldn't be ridiculed. To be fair, studying vocational and learning a trade makes you far more employable than going academic in some cases.
    It's the timeless TSR debate, not seen a thread on it for a few days so it was only a matter of time before it showed up again.
    If I didn't want to be a teacher, then I don't think I would've gone to Uni. I would've applied for apprenticeships and/or work-based learning in a scientific field
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    (Original post by thecookiemonster)
    Do you have any statistics to back this up?
    What kind of statistics are you after?

    (Original post by Billton)
    However, I don't believe in calling them micky mouse degrees. People's choice of further study shouldn't be ridiculed. To be fair, studying vocational and learning a trade makes you far more employable than going academic in some cases.

    It's the timeless TSR debate, not seen a thread on it for a few days so it was only a matter of time before it showed up again.
    If I didn't want to be a teacher, then I don't think I would've gone to Uni. I would've applied for apprenticeships and/or work-based learning in a scientific field
    I didn't call these micky mouse degrees. Read my OP. I said
    I agree that there are now too many micky mouse degrees about.

    But I also think that there are also too many degrees out there for vocational jobs that shouldn't need a degree.
    I clearly distinguish between the two.
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    I guess with things such as Nursing and Midwifery, the career itself is changing, and it's now not good enough for a nurse to just 'care'. Nurses now play a large role in the treatment of patients and work alongside doctors, which a nurse couldn't do if he/she didn't have anatomy and physiology training and understand drugs and diseases. It really isn't just a case of holding someones hand and giving them a cup of tea - which yes, they will do, but there is much more to these careers. There is also a lot more bureaucracy within healthcare than there was say, 20 or 30 years ago. All staff have to be trained to deal with complaints and to adhere to extremely strict guidelines of care.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    What kind of statistics are you after?
    .
    statistics about the national debt being increased by vocational degrees?
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    (Original post by Charlotte49)
    I guess with things such as Nursing and Midwifery, the career itself is changing, and it's now not good enough for a nurse to just 'care'. Nurses now play a large role in the treatment of patients and work alongside doctors, which a nurse couldn't do if he/she didn't have anatomy and physiology training and understand drugs and diseases. It really isn't just a case of holding someones hand and giving them a cup of tea - which yes, they will do, but there is much more to these careers. There is also a lot more bureaucracy within healthcare than there was say, 20 or 30 years ago. All staff have to be trained to deal with complaints and to adhere to extremely strict guidelines of care.
    fair enough. I do kind of think that nursing should be taught at unis especially for the anatomy and drugs bit. But why does it take uni to teach someone how to deal with complaints?
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    (Original post by thecookiemonster)
    statistics about the national debt being increased by vocational degrees?
    You don't need statistics. It's blatently obvious if you think about it for a moment. And it's not all of them. It's jobs like my boyfriends brother, where you barely earn over the minimum wage that's the problem.


    The government gives the unis money for you to go to uni.

    You graduate and get a job, earning the minimum wage

    On this you earn roughly 13k a year currently.

    On this amount 1) you pay hardly any income tax and 2) you don't pay any of your student loan off

    Thus the government is getting hardly of their money back that they paid in to your education. After a few years you might start earning over 20k, but after 20years of graduating your debt is wiped for you. But the government has still given that money to the unis. So is still worse off.
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    (Original post by Sir Fox)
    Agreed. When I started studying in the UK I was baffled by nursing and midwifery being an academic degree :lolwut:
    What else would they be?
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    fair enough. I do kind of think that nursing should be taught at unis especially for the anatomy and drugs bit. But why does it take uni to teach someone how to deal with complaints?
    I'm really referring to the complex guidelines nurses have to comply with, which dictate everything from how complaints are dealt with, to care plans. It's no longer up to someones personal judgement. For pretty much everything that happens to a patient in hospital there is a procedure and guideline to be followed. With the specific example of complaints, hospitals have a duty to provide care to patients, and when a patient complains, the hospital can have legal action taken against it if the patient believes the care professionals have gone against these guidelines. If this can be proven, the people in charge of the patients care may lost their jobs.

    Also, whilst nursing is accessed by degree only now, it is still 50% theory and 50% practical. The practical side is retained to make sure nurses still go into the career with experience, and the theory is, as you said, to teach about drugs, care plans, guidelines, anatomy etc so that this information can be applied in the placements.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    You don't need statistics. It's blatently obvious if you think about it for a moment. And it's not all of them. It's jobs like my boyfriends brother, where you barely earn over the minimum wage that's the problem.


    The government gives the unis money for you to go to uni.

    You graduate and get a job, earning the minimum wage

    On this you earn roughly 13k a year currently.

    On this amount 1) you pay hardly any income tax and 2) you don't pay any of your student loan off

    Thus the government is getting hardly of their money back that they paid in to your education. After a few years you might start earning over 20k, but after 20years of graduating your debt is wiped for you. But the government has still given that money to the unis. So is still worse off.
    So are you suggesting that every degree that doesn't guarantee a job should be abolished? Cos that would mean that the only degree that should exist is medicine in your view.
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    (Original post by thecookiemonster)
    So are you suggesting that every degree that doesn't guarantee a job should be abolished? Cos that would mean that the only degree that should exist is medicine in your view.
    No, I'm not saying that at all.

    I said that it's the vocational jobs where people are on the minimum wage or barely above it that are the problem.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    No, I'm not saying that at all.

    I said that it's the vocational jobs where people are on the minimum wage or barely above it that are the problem.
    So are you suggesting that graduate salaries should be increased? Surely that, in the NHS for example, would increase the national debt further?
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    (Original post by Charlotte49)
    So are you suggesting that graduate salaries should be increased? Surely that, in the NHS for example, would increase the national debt further?
    or that such vocational jobs shouldn't need degrees :facepalm: (the whole point of this thread) NVQs have been good enough for decades, whats wrong with them now?
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    Hospitality & events management degrees are my pet hate. I have spent a long time working in the hospitality & events industry, and the one person I have ever come across with such a degree was working in a non-management role, as a waitress.

    If you really want the answer, then it's because polytechnics used to be the institutions that taught vocational courses, but they all became universities in 1992, and carried on teaching the same courses.
 
 
 
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