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why are vocational things taught at uni Watch

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    (Original post by OU Student)
    How many people do you know work in care homes have a degree in that subject? My mum has done various care roles over the last 20 years (including children, elderly, learning disability and now physical disability including end of life care) and only has NVQs.

    I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong / it's changed) there's a way of being a nurse without going to uni. You work your way up through the different levels.
    Nursing is now a degree level profession as opposed to previously being able to qualify with a diploma. The last intake of diploma students will be 2013 and nurses will then need to study nursing to degree level in order to qualify. There's no way of working up through levels to become a nurse without the specific training, and you do need to go to university.

    Hope that doesn't sound pompous
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    I don't personally know any. But I know 4 people that work in care homes for either old or mentally ill people. They all have nvq type qualifications. But are saying that anyone who now trains can't do those nvqs, they have to have degrees.



    I agree, they're doing good jobs, but do they really need to go to uni.



    Yes, but do they cost as much as a degree, I don't think so, maybe before the tuition fee hike. I don't know the title of the degree, I imagine it has a similar name to the title of the nvqs etc you used to be able to do for it.




    Most people generally do unless they have a split personality.
    You don't even know what degree you're criticising :L just stop now, your arguments have no substance whatsoever
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    (Original post by River85)
    THis reflects the changing nature of the nursing profession over the last generation (and the changes to come).


    The only vocational qualifications I am aware of, that have been recently introduced, are postgraduate courses for those who wish to become Graduate Mental Health Workers, offering therapy (especially cognitive behavioural therapy) to people with mental health problems. I don't know the exact NHS bands, but it pays 20 - 40k+.
    Im not too sure what this thread is all about but having been a graduate mental health worker i can tell you that the pay is definitely not between 20k-40k. Starting band is 3, whereby you are part-time as you are also studying so this is pro-rata. After a year this goes up to band 4 but i believe the lower end and therefore still just under 20k. They are also only briefly trained in CBT and since they don't have an actual qualification to practice it they can never provide therapy alone as a professional. There are also poor career prospects from then on since it is not a recognised profession... not sure this postgraduate 'vocational' course is a great example of how they are beneficial.

    On the other hand, management in mental health care can often come from nursing positions so i dont know why anyone interested in MH wouldn't do a nursing BSc. Vocational degrees seem so much better these days since they often lead to specific jobs the success of employment following graduation is much much higher. I wish id done one as my first degree, would have saved so much time and money getting the career i want.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    I agree that there are now too many micky mouse degrees about.

    But I also think that there are also too many degrees out there for vocational jobs that shouldn't need a degree, they're not micky mouse degrees, but should only need apprenticeships/NVQs, like they have done in the past. There are many jobs that you could do until recently with NVQs and other such qualifications, that you now need to go to uni to do. It's just making more red tape and more debt.

    Who else agrees?

    I do think that they're worthwhile jobs and I respect anyone who works honestly for a living,


    Another point I should make is that people who work for just over the minimum wage with there job after getting there degree can't be good for the economy. With the way student loans work, people like him will barely pay any of their loan off, so the government who ultimately give out this money is getting poorer (even if you include the small amount of extra income tax the government would recieve) and the unis richer. Obviously this doesn't apply to every vocational job, but for some such as those where most of the jobs are on or slightly above the minimum wage.

    I do think that these people need training by the way. But why aren't NVQs and apprenticeships etc good enough anymore, they have been for several years now. That's the main issue here.
    There are two different issues here.

    Firstly there are some jobs where the claim is that a degree is needed because of the changing content of the job.

    Secondly there is the change in the funding of education. In 1900 if you wanted to be an real engineer; civil, naval, mechanical, your parents would pay a civil engineer, railway company or shipyard a sum of money called a premium to be allowed to be an apprentice.

    What happened over the 20th century is that in times of high employment premiums for apprenticeships vanished. Employers started paying those apprentices who were going to to have professions at the end but by the 1970s and 80s they could no longer afford to pay either these apprentices or the apprentices for skilled manual trades either. Universities have taken up the slack for the former and FE colleges for the latter.

    If you would kindly pay my law firm £27,000 and work without pay for the next three years, we would give you a training from scratch in the law that would be second to none!
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    You don't need statistics. It's blatently obvious if you think about it for a moment. And it's not all of them. It's jobs like my boyfriends brother, where you barely earn over the minimum wage that's the problem.

    I get the impression that your boyfriend's brother is perhaps 'bigging himself up'! (I'm old, so am unsure if that's an OK saying!). It may well be the case that there are people applying for and getting jobs such as that who DO have degrees. It doesn't mean that a degree is actually required though. Theoretically, NVQs are still sufficient. However, given the large number of unemployed psychology graduates and even qualified nurses, many of these are applying for the jobs. If I were choosing staff for a home such as that, I would no doubt choose people educated to a higher level. I have to say that it is sad that perfectly decent caring individuals who aren't particularly academic are being excluded from such roles.
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    (Original post by alleysee)
    Im not too sure what this thread is all about but having been a graduate mental health worker i can tell you that the pay is definitely not between 20k-40k. Starting band is 3, whereby you are part-time as you are also studying so this is pro-rata. After a year this goes up to band 4 but i believe the lower end and therefore still just under 20k. They are also only briefly trained in CBT and since they don't have an actual qualification to practice it they can never provide therapy alone as a professional. There are also poor career prospects from then on since it is not a recognised profession... not sure this postgraduate 'vocational' course is a great example of how they are beneficial.
    Firstly, I meant 20 - 30k.

    Secondly, I wasn't using it as an example of how beneficial vocational courses can be. It is a relatively new profession and I'm aware of its problems. I wasn't making any real point, beyond the fact that they exist and pay is considerably more than minimum wage.

    Besides, I thought salaries started at Band 5? Even band 4 is around 20k (the figure I gave), so considerably more than minimum wage, which was my point.

    I only mentioned Graduate Mental Health workers as this is the only "new" vocational courses in mental health that I could think of. I cannot think of what degree, certainly professionally accredited degree, the people in the OP's post are being made to do in order to. The OP did not (and probably still has not) mentioned exactly what degrees
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    Two people in two different parts of the country have said the same.

    And even if they are mistaken ie it's only the managers or whatever that need degrees. My original point still goes, there are other vocational jobs that need degrees that didn't used to.
    What is probably happening, as I touched on earlier and NHSFan has mentioned, is that, as we have a reasonable level of graduate unemployment, and so many psychology graduates in particular, many graduates are going to these entry level jobs. They pay may not be much but at least it's something plus they can provide valuable experience. This is something I have personal experience of, and have applied to similar roles both as a volunteer and paid employee.

    I know of one agency who do go and specifically target graduates, psychology graduates in particular, who need relevant work experience before embarking on a Masters. This doesn't mean degrees are needed for the jobs, however, and it certainly doesn't mean they need to do one specific professional or vocational degree. Many of these graduates will have taken non-vocational degrees (or psychology).

    There is no degree specifically designed for people working in care homes, for minimum wage jobs. As mentioned, there are Foundation Degrees in mental health which some workers may chose to do, or some companies may sponsor employees to take, but this would be down to choice.

    Before criticising something, try and find out what it is that you're trying to criticise.
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    (Original post by River85)
    Firstly, I meant 20 - 30k.

    Secondly, I wasn't using it as an example of how beneficial vocational courses can be. It is a relatively new profession and I'm aware of its problems. I wasn't making any real point, beyond the fact that they exist and pay is considerably more than minimum wage.

    Besides, I thought salaries started at Band 5? Even band 4 is around 20k (the figure I gave), so considerably more than minimum wage, which was my point.

    I only mentioned Graduate Mental Health workers as this is the only "new" vocational courses in mental health that I could think of. I cannot think of what degree, certainly professionally accredited degree, the people in the OP's post are being made to do in order to. The OP did not (and probably still has not) mentioned exactly what degrees
    I wasn't having a go, i haven't even read the original posting by the OP, i just wanted to give a more detailed, realistic idea of the graduate mental health worker role in case someone was randomly reading this and considering it as an option.

    I believe that primary care graduate mental health workers (based at GPs) may attract a higher wage and more experienced/trained graduates, but secondary mental healthcare positions (whereby the degree is non-specified) definitely do not earn that much.... with band 4 being £18,652 to £21,798 pa, colleagues of mine continuing with the job are paid at the bottom of the end still hence my reply that they are under 20k. At an hourly rate that would be £8 roughly so only a couple more than minimum wage (still more yes, but not a 'considerable' amount more).

    Graduates of occupational therapy/nursing/paramedics may be paid on a band 5 scale, all requiring vocational degrees though... hence my example that these sorts of applied, specific degrees are beneficial to do.

    I would say though it is a shame that graduates are paid at this level or less, since they've worked hard for 3 years and been under the impression that a degree will instantly provide them with a better starting salary. These days most graduates are prepared to start lower on a ladder they want/able to climb though.
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    (Original post by alleysee)
    I wasn't having a go
    Didn't think you were...

    i haven't even read the original posting by the OP, i just wanted to give a more detailed, realistic idea of the graduate mental health worker role in case someone was randomly reading this and considering it as an option.
    There are lots of more "realistic" portrayls of that someone is more likely to find (some of the made by me). I'm unwell, barely capable of coherent thoughts at the moment and, as mentioned, it was not my intention to provide a detailed description of the role as it is not relevant to the thread. I was just using it as one example of a graduate only mental health role within the NHS (aside from the obvious such as professionals . occupations such as nursing and psychology).

    I believe that primary care graduate mental health workers (based at GPs) may attract a higher wage and more experienced/trained graduates, but secondary mental healthcare positions (whereby the degree is non-specified)
    Exactly, and I was not referring to those where degree is not specified, considering I specifically mentioned those who have done specific postrgraduate education or training such as the following: -

    http://www.ncl.ac.uk/postgraduate/co...ical-therapies


    Graduates of occupational therapy/nursing/paramedics may be paid on a band 5 scale, all requiring vocational degrees though... hence my example that these sorts of applied, specific degrees are beneficial to do.
    Yes and I mentioned these, along with engineering, town planning, and the like.

    Just to clarify, I know about the role of graduate mental health worker but it was not appropriate, or necessary, to provide a detailed overview of it in this thread.
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    (Original post by River85)
    Didn't think you were...



    There are lots of more "realistic" portrayls of that someone is more likely to find (some of the made by me). I'm unwell, barely capable of coherent thoughts at the moment and, as mentioned, it was not my intention to provide a detailed description of the role as it is not relevant to the thread. I was just using it as one example of a graduate only mental health role within the NHS (aside from the obvious such as professionals . occupations such as nursing and psychology).



    Exactly, and I was not referring to those where degree is not specified, considering I specifically mentioned those who have done specific postrgraduate education or training such as the following: -

    http://www.ncl.ac.uk/postgraduate/co...ical-therapies




    Yes and I mentioned these, along with engineering, town planning, and the like.

    Just to clarify, I know about the role of graduate mental health worker but it was not appropriate, or necessary, to provide a detailed overview of it in this thread.

    This is clearly not worth responding to any longer but people are entitled to their own independent thought, who is to say what is and isn't appropriate in a certain thread when discussing the same topic.

    If you don't make your thoughts clear (i.e. 20-40k instead of your intended 20-30k) then people are going to pick up on it... that's the internet for you. If you're unwell and unable to think clearly perhaps you should be tucked up in bed.

    Perhaps perceived criticism/opposing ideas are hard for some people to take. Im done though, peace.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    I didn't call these micky mouse degrees.
    Your OP referred to "micky mouse degrees" and I replied that I don't believe in calling them that, whatever they are, as someone's choice of degree shouldn't be called something of a novelty.
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    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    I agree that there are now too many micky mouse degrees about.

    But I also think that there are also too many degrees out there for vocational jobs that shouldn't need a degree, they're not micky mouse degrees, but should only need apprenticeships/NVQs, like they have done in the past. There are many jobs that you could do until recently with NVQs and other such qualifications, that you now need to go to uni to do. It's just making more red tape and more debt.

    Who else agrees?

    I do think that they're worthwhile jobs and I respect anyone who works honestly for a living,


    Another point I should make is that people who work for just over the minimum wage with there job after getting there degree can't be good for the economy. With the way student loans work, people like him will barely pay any of their loan off, so the government who ultimately give out this money is getting poorer (even if you include the small amount of extra income tax the government would recieve) and the unis richer. Obviously this doesn't apply to every vocational job, but for some such as those where most of the jobs are on or slightly above the minimum wage.

    I do think that these people need training by the way. But why aren't NVQs and apprenticeships etc good enough anymore, they have been for several years now. That's the main issue here.
    Pharmacy and medicine are vocational degrees btw

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