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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    its not banned on the internet... just pretty commonly seen as ****ing stupid

    I like both players, and both clubs pretty equally... but cleverly is still in the 'showing promise' phase

    Whereas wilshire, when fit, just makes you sit back and admire.. some of his games (brazil, barca, etc) have been incredible.. - if it wasn't for wenger's bad management of him, then we would be seeing him a lot more, and all be praising him..
    :rolleyes:

    the fact you can only name two stand out performances of his says a LOT frankly, Cleverley may not give games on that level but he plays at a good level a lot more often, consistency is just as important as ability, nobody would rate Messi if he only played that well 5 games out of 38 for instance...so why they do Wilshere is beyond me (though fairly obviously due to people being England/Arsenal fans)
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    as for this section.. its just plain silly..

    Wilshire: 7 caps
    Cleverly: 9 caps

    - though considering:

    Cleverly is 3 years older,
    Wilshire was injured for 18 months..

    -- the fact that he has anywhere near as many caps as Cleverly just shows how valued he is by the national manager..
    most of those caps for both have come in the last 2 years though...that was my point...Wilshere is younger yes, well done for observing that, do you want a medal? hence why I said he has the potential to better...I like how selective people read my posts here, any excuse to have a go on the internet I guess.
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    (Original post by poiuytrewq54321)
    I thought Walcott played so much better before he signed his £100,000 a week contract. But I agree Nani is better than any of our and Arsenals wingers when he is fully fit and not injured that is.
    And on form, Nani has always suffered horribly from fluctuations in form. Can't actually think of many players who are worse tbh. On a good days he's wc, up there with Robben as a near unplayable wide man, other days he's just useless.

    And I don't know why some United fans think Cleverly is better or at the same standard as Wilshere. Wilshere is way better whether they admit it or not. Yes his been injured most of the time but when fully fit he can change a game on his own which Cleverly simply can't do. I don't even know why we have this debate.
    I agree, I don't think they're comparable. Cleverly has had some decent games, but when has he had a brilliant game? Wilshere has had multiple games where he's be brilliant, the Brazil game as a recent one. He does quite regularly hit a level Cleverly doesn't and imo isn't capable of hitting. I'd say Cleverly and Ramsay are far more comparable, even then I'd probably go with Ramsay ( I rate him, I think he gets misused by Arsenal).
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    When Cleverley really came onto the scene about 2 years ago, he looked very promising. Two years later, where has he gotten? He's lost that promise and now just feels like he's an average player. I agree with Doggyfizzel completely, Cleverley isn't anywhere close to being considered a good midfielder, and he isn't the type of player we would look at twice if he wasn't in our team. In fact, none of Cleverley, Jones, Welbeck or Smalling have built on the promise they've shown, and if anything they've regressed. To be fair to Welbeck and Jones, they've been forced out of position most of the time, as has Smalling on the rare opportunities he gets to play. As for Cleverley, there aren't the same excuses...Prior to getting injured in that Bolton game 2 years ago, he was looking great in the first 4-5 games of that season. Since then, I haven't really felt the same about him. This season is going to be huge for him, as it seems we're not going to sign anyone in midfield. He absolutely has to improve, same for Anderson.
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    (Original post by SciFiRory)
    most of those caps for both have come in the last 2 years
    and in the last 2 years, wilshire was injured for 1.

    Yet has nearly the same number of caps? in half the time?

    funny that..

    You would almost presume that the england manager favours him over cleverly... hmm...

    But that couldnt be the case, could it? :rolleyes:

    -- EDIT.. your neg hurt... hurt me bad SciFiRory
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    (Original post by SciFiRory)
    :rolleyes:

    the fact you can only name two stand out performances of his says a LOT frankly, Cleverley may not give games on that level but he plays at a good level a lot more often, consistency is just as important as ability, nobody would rate Messi if he only played that well 5 games out of 38 for instance...so why they do Wilshere is beyond me (though fairly obviously due to people being England/Arsenal fans)
    I watched all of arsenals games last season..

    To the best of my recolection, I can remember 2 (possibly 3) occasions when wilshire wasnt playing very well...

    Most of the time, even just having come back from injury, he put in great performances, and topped player-ratings after the game..

    - When not injured, performing consistantly well, has been one of his greatest strengths..

    (though his injuries have marred peoples views on him, especially last season..)


    - its very very clear that you dont watch many arsenal games, (as you said MOTD, - which hardly shows off a player like wilshire that well, as he is rarely in the goals/assists..)
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    (Original post by EmperorMustard)
    Scores 21 goals almost all from the wing in a season.

    ...

    '**** on the wing'

    Seriously? I understand it's been vogue to hate on Walcott for the past 5 seasons now but this just shows how little of Walcott you watched last season (and the season before).

    With regards to Cleverley/Wilshere, Wilshere is clearly a cut above. Cleverley is a tidy player, I actually thought they played quite well together against Brazil, but Wilshere has the ability to grab a game by the balls and drag a team to victory. Cleverley will keep you ticking but is less likely to produce a moment of magic to win a game.
    Berbatov was the PL league top scorer in 10/11 season, yet he played pretty bad in parts of the season. He had great games but was inconsistent. I'd say the same about Walcott.

    Wilshere is better than Cleverley, don't think I said he wasn't.
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    (Original post by xDave-)
    When Cleverley really came onto the scene about 2 years ago, he looked very promising. Two years later, where has he gotten? He's lost that promise and now just feels like he's an average player. I agree with Doggyfizzel completely, Cleverley isn't anywhere close to being considered a good midfielder, and he isn't the type of player we would look at twice if he wasn't in our team. In fact, none of Cleverley, Jones, Welbeck or Smalling have built on the promise they've shown, and if anything they've regressed. To be fair to Welbeck and Jones, they've been forced out of position most of the time, as has Smalling on the rare opportunities he gets to play. As for Cleverley, there aren't the same excuses...Prior to getting injured in that Bolton game 2 years ago, he was looking great in the first 4-5 games of that season. Since then, I haven't really felt the same about him. This season is going to be huge for him, as it seems we're not going to sign anyone in midfield. He absolutely has to improve, same for Anderson.
    I agree with it all, apart from Jones..

    He proved himself to be a very very usefull player last season, and very capable of marking specific players out of the game..

    He did a great job on ronaldo, and bale etc.

    May have gotten in a bit of a muddle with his position being changed alot.. but he certianly has a lot of talent, and is a great addition to the team
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    Jones has shown that he has all the capabilities to become a world class player. Only 21. SAF thinks he'll be a lot more than just a world class player. I hope he's right.
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    Arsenal are in talks with Gustavo
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    (Original post by JM1987)
    Arsenal are in talks with Gustavo
    Don't rate him as highly as most. Won't improve their team that much really.
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    Wow, alot of debate going on around here - a positive distraction from the transfer sagas I'll say.

    Dave's post pretty much summed up my thoughts on Cleverley. Few years ago, when he got injured at Bolton, there was a genuine concern and disappointment as he had shown potential and we really felt he'd be a central figure in our team, if he maintained his levels.

    Last season was his real test and tbh, he didn't really do anything outstanding. He scored a lovely goal in the first half of the campaign at home against Sunderland when he opened his body up to stroke the ball past Mignolet and his general skills are satisfactory but I just don't see him really progressing. This season is a must do better one for him. I'm expecting much more if no other midfielder is bought. I remember in the season when he got injured, he was exciting because he got the ball and wanted to move forward with it whereas last year, he seemed content to be deep and it sideways or a small pass forward. Maybe he felt playing alongside Carrick, that's what he had to do IDK, but he needs to push up the ladder quickly or lose out.

    Jones/Smalling I feel for because they always get shifted around but the former did admirably and the latter had injury issues.

    Welbeck should be producing more, another big season for him.
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    (Original post by Kenan and Kel)
    Don't rate him as highly as most. Won't improve their team that much really.
    Agreed.

    On his day, he's great at the defensive side of the game. But going forward, I don't rate him. He might do the odd decent long pass and make some easy/obvious forward short passes. But that's it really. Most of the time, it will be sideways or backwards passes.

    But he's still a good player to have in a squad nonetheless.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    Agreed.

    On his day, he's great at the defensive side of the game. But going forward, I don't rate him. He might do the odd decent long pass and make some easy/obvious forward short passes. But that's it really. Most of the time, it will be sideways or backwards passes.

    But he's still a good player to have in a squad nonetheless.
    He is capable of making the odd decent pass, but yeah in general he plays it safe and retains possession with short and backwards passing. We have a very competent passer of the ball in Carrick, who he would play next to though. He's got a decent shot on him as well.

    I can't think of a better player for our squad going for as little money as he will go for. Fellaini, who has worse passing, and would be a worse fit for the team would probably cost £8-£10m more
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    - its very very clear that you dont watch many arsenal games, (as you said MOTD, - which hardly shows off a player like wilshire that well, as he is rarely in the goals/assists..)
    Wilsheres form after the united match where he got the red card until the tottenham game was outstanding tbh. If he stays fit he'll be world class.

    But tbh his opinion is based on MOTD. That's the problem. Shame about cleverley, he's gonna have to improve next season, but atm he's not good enough. Hence why he was dropped for jones there in the second half of the season.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    Wilsheres form after the united match where he got the red card until the tottenham game was outstanding tbh. If he stays fit he'll be world class.

    But tbh his opinion is based on MOTD. That's the problem. Shame about cleverley, he's gonna have to improve next season, but atm he's not good enough. Hence why he was dropped for jones there in the second half of the season.
    its a shame, as I really hoped cleverly would do well

    though there is still time.. some players do 'bloom' in their later years.. (arguably carrick for exsample..)

    So maybe there is still time for him to become the player, many predicted he would..
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    He is capable of making the odd decent pass, but yeah in general he plays it safe and retains possession with short and backwards passing. We have a very competent passer of the ball in Carrick, who he would play next to though. He's got a decent shot on him as well.

    I can't think of a better player for our squad going for as little money as he will go for. Fellaini, who has worse passing, and would be a worse fit for the team would probably cost £8-£10m
    Agreed.

    I reckon you should have gone for Gustavo, considering the shortage of available, cheap and decent DMs atm.

    If you could have gotten him and someone like Fabregas, your squad would pretty much have been perfect.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    its a shame, as I really hoped cleverly would do well

    though there is still time.. some players do 'bloom' in their later years.. (arguably carrick for exsample..)

    So maybe there is still time for him to become the player, many predicted he would..
    Thing is with carrick he was a class player at tottenham, he really thrived playing in a deep lying role at united now though. I think the talent has got to be there to begin with and glimpses of quality shown for you to become a world class/top tier player at the role.

    I think that cleverley will improve, with more gametime and being injury free he has to and he certainly is a good squad player. I think the anderson cleverley partnership at the start of that season was great, people were saying that united no longer had CM problems.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    its a shame, as I really hoped cleverly would do well

    though there is still time.. some players do 'bloom' in their later years.. (arguably carrick for exsample..)

    So maybe there is still time for him to become the player, many predicted he would..
    Although it has to be said, Carrick was already improving year on year, and its only this year he's arguably surpassed his best form when he was playing a more dynamic role.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    Agreed.

    On his day, he's great at the defensive side of the game. But going forward, I don't rate him. He might do the odd decent long pass and make some easy/obvious forward short passes. But that's it really. Most of the time, it will be sideways or backwards passes.

    But he's still a good player to have in a squad nonetheless.
    He just doesn't excite me at all, and this is coming from someone who's a big fan of defensive midfielders.
 
 
 
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