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Why doesn't everyone vote for UKIP? Watch

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    (Original post by Ace123)
    who says leaving the EU will make us isolated, the UK only needs one thing= free trade and the EU desperately needs that as well. Everything else the EU brings is irrelevant as long as we get a free trade agreement
    (Original post by The Islander)
    I disagree with the sentiment that leaving the EU will mean we will be isolated from the European marketplace.

    France and Germany are our biggest trading partners and they will remain our biggest trading partners long after we leave the EU
    I should have phrased my post more carefully: I believe very strongly in a free trade and market approach with Europe, probably more similar to the EEC than the EU of today. In part though, I share the worries of the Norwegian Foreign Minister who warned that Britain outside the EU would lose its voice at economic negotiations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20830201). If France and Germany (and the EU as a whole) remain our largest trading partners, then we need to make sure we don't lose our seat at the table and can continue to fight for a better deal from within rather than throwing stones from the outside.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    I should have phrased my post more carefully: I believe very strongly in a free trade and market approach with Europe, probably more similar to the EEC than the EU of today. In part though, I share the worries of the Norwegian Foreign Minister who warned that Britain outside the EU would lose its voice at economic negotiations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20830201). If France and Germany (and the EU as a whole) remain our largest trading partners, then we need to make sure we don't lose our seat at the table and can continue to fight for a better deal from within rather than throwing stones from the outside.
    The eu has formed trade agreement with dozens of countries such as egypt, mexico, algeria, south korea from all over the world and all of those countries are not even in the eec and get free trade without accepting immigration, any other eu laws besides free trade and do not have to contribute to the budget.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    I should have phrased my post more carefully: I believe very strongly in a free trade and market approach with Europe, probably more similar to the EEC than the EU of today. In part though, I share the worries of the Norwegian Foreign Minister who warned that Britain outside the EU would lose its voice at economic negotiations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20830201). If France and Germany (and the EU as a whole) remain our largest trading partners, then we need to make sure we don't lose our seat at the table and can continue to fight for a better deal from within rather than throwing stones from the outside.
    I think the Idea of a federal unified Europe under the anti-democratic EU is terrifying and that should be the motivating force for leaving. Again I doubt strongly that leaving the EU will affect trade with the EU.

    And as a matter of fact the EU has restricted Britain forming trade deals with non-EU countries.

    I think the viability of leaving the EU having the affect of improving trade with Britain and non-EU countries should certainly be debated.
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    Because the majority of people are idiots who would vote for a donkey if it had a red, blue or yellow ribbon on it.
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    (Original post by Joeman560)
    Because the majority of people are idiots who would vote for a donkey if it had a red, blue or yellow ribbon on it.
    lol
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    (Original post by Ace123)
    The eu has formed trade agreement with dozens of countries such as egypt, mexico, algeria, south korea from all over the world and all of those countries are not even in the eec and get free trade without accepting immigration, any other eu laws besides free trade and do not have to contribute to the budget.
    That's true, but those countries will not have the same level of interaction, power and influence within the EU decision making process (naturally I guess, because they're not a part of the European community). We on the other hand do have that opportunity, and I still believe it's better to be actively involved and fight for a reformed EU from within, rather than lose our influence within the Union and risk the terms of EU trade being forced upon us externally.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    What policies are ill thought out ?

    What fictional scare stories ?
    (Original post by Harry Callahan)
    Which policies are horrific? Name them.
    Most of their views on crime and punishment are out dated. They seem to be willing to use a hammer to 'fix' what is actually an intricate mechanism. Things such as "Life means life" which is ridiculous unless they plan to undertake a complete overhaul of every offence which currently carries a life sentence.

    They also promise to end the policy of early release and "end weak sentencing" however they don't really seem to go into any detail on this point. There have been various reports which show that longer sentences do not equal lesser crime. What does help is to increase the chances of actually getting caught. Also Britain imprisons a very large number of people - it would be refreshing for more creative and more effective sentencing options to be considered rather than an apparent drive to even more aggressive incarceration.

    They also say that they will get rid of the CPS and replacing it with the old style police prosecutions... which were just a complete disaster.

    All of that before you get to the section marked "Restoring Britishness" - pretty much everything under that heading is comedy gold.

    As for scare stories: UKIP had a section, probably still does, on their website where they state that the EU have a say in 73% of our laws. This is completely false yet they still push this lie in order to bolster support.
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    (Original post by rainbow.panda)
    I would vote for UKIP but I don't agree with their stance on gay marriage. I'm not gay, but I'm very pro-gay rights so on principle I won't vote for a party that would ban it.
    Civil Partnership is the same thing with a different name.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    That's true, but those countries will not have the same level of interaction, power and influence within the EU decision making process (naturally I guess, because they're not a part of the European community). We on the other hand do have that opportunity, and I still believe it's better to be actively involved and fight for a reformed EU from within, rather than lose our influence within the Union and risk the terms of EU trade being forced upon us externally.
    but once you have free trade what else does the UK need? the UK is also very strong and will not just agree to any terms the eu suggest they need our trade as well
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    I think the Idea of a federal unified Europe under the anti-democratic EU is terrifying and that should be the motivating force for leaving. Again I doubt strongly that leaving the EU will affect trade with the EU.

    And as a matter of fact the EU has restricted Britain forming trade deals with non-EU countries.

    I think the viability of leaving the EU having the affect of improving trade with Britain and non-EU countries should certainly be debated.
    I'd agree that we do need a debate on the future direction of the EU, and what our relationship with Europe should be. But as I said in my response to Ace123, I'd argue that it's better that we shape that debate from within rather than lose our influence completely.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Most of their views on crime and punishment are out dated. They seem to be willing to use a hammer to 'fix' what is actually an intricate mechanism. Things such as "Life means life" which is ridiculous unless they plan to undertake a complete overhaul of every offence which currently carries a life sentence.

    They also promise to end the policy of early release and "end weak sentencing" however they don't really seem to go into any detail on this point. There have been various reports which show that longer sentences do not equal lesser crime. What does help is to increase the chances of actually getting caught. Also Britain imprisons a very large number of people - it would be refreshing for more creative and more effective sentencing options to be considered rather than an apparent drive to even more aggressive incarceration.

    They also say that they will get rid of the CPS and replacing it with the old style police prosecutions... which were just a complete disaster.

    All of that before you get to the section marked "Restoring Britishness" - pretty much everything under that heading is comedy gold.

    As for scare stories: UKIP had a section, probably still does, on their website where they state that the EU have a say in 73% of our laws. This is completely false yet they still push this lie in order to bolster support.
    Having looked at Labours website their own policies are a complete enigma.

    And creative sentencing sounds like wishy washy liberal masterbation, straight out of the Guardian.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    I'd agree that we do need a debate on the future direction of the EU, and what our relationship with Europe should be. But as I said in my response to Ace123, I'd argue that it's better that we shape that debate from within rather than lose our influence completely.
    and how do you propose the UK shapes the debate whne France and German rule the other nations, they do not care about the UK they just want to destory us. Look at the budget issues the UK's interest is to cut it back but the eastern nations who get all the money which we pay in wouldn't have it and who can blame them turkey do not vote for christmas.

    so how can the UK change EU policy
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    And creative sentencing sounds like wishy washy liberal masterbation, straight out of the Guardian.
    It's short for finding solutions to problems.

    Person gets convicted = send him to prison for a long time

    The above is not creative and does not always work. By work, I mean it does not always achieve the accepted purposes of sentencing.

    Being more creative would mean that we look at the best ways of dealing with that particular person. What can the state do to make sure that all of, or as many of, the purposes of sentencing are achieved.

    [edit] the term creative sentencing may have been a mistake. However the principle I was referring to is outlined above.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    What policies are ill thought out ?

    What fictional scare stories ?
    Burkha Ban
    Increasing Military Spending
    Doubling the Number of Prisons ( already have record number of prisoners)
    Abolish Employers National Insurance Contributions ( ie Importing tea party economics)
    Cut Spending at twice the level of Cameron

    UKIP are not Libertarian, they made ignorant statements about multiculturalism and restoring 'Christian Values and turning the tide against Islam' which is code words for if your racist vote for us.

    UKIP are more Old Style Thatcherites than Libertarians.

    I may vote for them in the Euroelections because Im against a undemocratic EU superstate,EU wide Arrest Warrants,EU deciding what is chocolate etc .I want to be part of an Economic Free Trade Area,but I wont vote for them in the General election.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    What policies are ill thought out ?

    What fictional scare stories ?
    The policy of building 3 new aircraft carriers. http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-pol...ce-ukip-policy

    They are a party which is about Britain's right to self determination yet they wish to build 3 ships which are all about projecting power and removing other countries right to self determination. This seems to be illogical.

    A lot of their stuff on criminal justice is in the face of research. If you're a student you'll have access to an online library, sure if you search some of their stuff in there you'll find plenty of evidence refuting their claims.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    I'd agree that we do need a debate on the future direction of the EU, and what our relationship with Europe should be. But as I said in my response to Ace123, I'd argue that it's better that we shape that debate from within rather than lose our influence completely.
    I doubt that we can significantly influence the EU from within just now, and we will be less and less able to as Europe becomes more integrated and federal.

    I think the argument that we are better of with the EU as we can "influence" this anti-democratic union is short sighted.

    Were the Dutch able to influece the EU when they voted NO to the Mastricht treaty (not once but twice voted NO) ? Were Ireland able to influence the EU when they voted NO ?

    You argument holds little water with me
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    Well, because I find their social views abhorrent and antiquated - in particular their position on crime is the typical foolishness of the right-wing, despite all observations as to effectiveness being to the contrary: e.g. the Norwegian system against the more heavy handed systems produces far better results. Likewise their opposition to gay marriage is the sign of people living in the past, or sloven-jawed bigots who just randomly shout tradition as opposition to things outside of their comfort-zone.
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    (Original post by Joeman560)
    Civil Partnership is the same thing with a different name.
    So you might as well just call it marriage, right? We don't need two names for the same thing.

    I really need to read what else UKIP stand for, it's almost the same issue as the Green Party - once they fix this one thing, what else do they actually want to do? Not asking for links, I'll try and find it out.
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    (Original post by Ace123)
    but once you have free trade what else does the UK need? the UK is also very strong and will not just agree to any terms the eu suggest they need our trade as well
    Well I'm personally in favour of freedom of movement, shared and standardised political and social rights and the fact that as a member of the EU, the UK has a major voice in one of the world's largest trading blocs.

    The EU does need our trade even if we were not a part of the Union, but we have a much better bargaining position from being a key member than being an outsider.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well I'm personally in favour of freedom of movement, shared and standardised political and social rights and the fact that as a member of the EU, the UK has a major voice in one of the world's largest trading blocs.

    The EU does need our trade even if we were not a part of the Union, but we have a much better bargaining position from being a key member than being an outsider.
    free movement has totally destroyed this country and referring to political and social rights, whilst Germany and France were still under despots the UK introduced all these rights first and used them to better effect then the EU does now
 
 
 
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