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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well I'm personally in favour of freedom of movement, shared and standardised political and social rights and the fact that as a member of the EU, the UK has a major voice in one of the world's largest trading blocs.

    The EU does need our trade even if we were not a part of the Union, but we have a much better bargaining position from being a key member than being an outsider.
    I am for freedom of movement for certain nations. I think it is silly to be for freedom of movement for any EU country. inward EU immigration is simply not reciporical.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well I'm personally in favour of freedom of movement, shared and standardised political and social rights and the fact that as a member of the EU, the UK has a major voice in one of the world's largest trading blocs.

    The EU does need our trade even if we were not a part of the Union, but we have a much better bargaining position from being a key member than being an outsider.
    What bargaining position will we have when the EU is moves closer and closer towards being completely federal and completely integrated ???
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    If UKIP copied every policy of the Conservative party other than their European policies, people would. But the have no idea about al economics etc.

    Plus, the Conservative party are soon going to do something about Europe.


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    (Original post by Sovr'gnChancellor£)
    It seems to have Britain's interests at heart and advocates tougher immigration policies in the vein of Australia and the United States and whatnot and does away with all of that multiculturalism nonsense (whatever that is...).]
    So is it going to fill the UK with Lebanese and South East Asians or Hispanics?
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    (Original post by levellingmcs)
    Plus, the Conservative party are soon going to do something about Europe.
    Lol.
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    (Original post by levellingmcs)
    If UKIP copied every policy of the Conservative party other than their European policies, people would. But the have no idea about al economics etc.

    Plus, the Conservative party are soon going to do something about Europe.


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    as a former tory supporter they have promised that before and they may not even offer an in or out referendum but one with a third option to split the vote so nothing changes and it looks like they will not be elected anyway in 2015
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    In Germany the Nazis rose to power through an economic depression (doesn't that sound like the recession right now) and they also rose to power because they opposed the treaty of Versailles( that is very much like Britain having to follow the rules of Europe) so I don't think we want to go the same way as Germany in those times, I'm not saying they're nazis just that they hold very racially verging beliefs, though I do agree with their views on slowing Immigration down as the country is getting too full to supply its people.
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    (Original post by zk47)
    In Germany the Nazis rose to power through an economic depression (doesn't that sound like the recession right now) and they also rose to power because they opposed the treaty of Versailles( that is very much like Britain having to follow the rules of Europe) so I don't think we want to go the same way as Germany in those times, I'm not saying they're nazis just that they hold very racially verging beliefs, though I do agree with their views on slowing Immigration down as the country is getting too full to supply its people.
    Riiiiiiiiight !!!!!
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    (Original post by Ace123)
    and how do you propose the UK shapes the debate whne France and German rule the other nations, they do not care about the UK they just want to destory us. Look at the budget issues the UK's interest is to cut it back but the eastern nations who get all the money which we pay in wouldn't have it and who can blame them turkey do not vote for christmas.

    so how can the UK change EU policy
    Well, I'm not sure that France and Germany are out to destroy us, nor that they alone run the EU. There is input from all EU members at all levels of policy making, and whilst it isn't always in the UK's favour, imagine what the EU would do to us if British representatives weren't arguing Britain's case in Brussel's corridors of power (if you believe that the EU is biased against Britain).

    The UK can change European policy in the same way that all the other member states can (although we have a numerically greater amount of power). Although, I'm personally against the excessive politicisation of the EU, it is ultimately a democratic process and we have to accept the terms the Union agrees to.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well, I'm not sure that France and Germany are out to destroy us, nor that they alone run the EU. There is input from all EU members at all levels of policy making, and whilst it isn't always in the UK's favour, imagine what the EU would do to us if British representatives weren't arguing Britain's case in Brussel's corridors of power (if you believe that the EU is biased against Britain).

    The UK can change European policy in the same way that all the other member states can (although we have a numerically greater amount of power). Although, I'm personally against the excessive politicisation of the EU, it is ultimately a democratic process and we have to accept the terms the Union agrees to.
    you say they are not trying to destroy us but several attempts have been made to move the city of london (12% of our gdp) over to frankfurt.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well, I'm not sure that France and Germany are out to destroy us, nor that they alone run the EU. There is input from all EU members at all levels of policy making, and whilst it isn't always in the UK's favour, imagine what the EU would do to us if British representatives weren't arguing Britain's case in Brussel's corridors of power (if you believe that the EU is biased against Britain).

    The UK can change European policy in the same way that all the other member states can (although we have a numerically greater amount of power). Although, I'm personally against the excessive politicisation of the EU, it is ultimately a democratic process and we have to accept the terms the Union agrees to.
    Democratic as in the past with the Netherlands votting twice NO to the Mastricht treaty. Or when Ireland voted NO ??

    Are you implying that the EU is pro democracy ?
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    I doubt that we can significantly influence the EU from within just now, and we will be less and less able to as Europe becomes more integrated and federal.

    I think the argument that we are better of with the EU as we can "influence" this anti-democratic union is short sighted.

    Were the Dutch able to influece the EU when they voted NO to the Mastricht treaty (not once but twice voted NO) ? Were Ireland able to influence the EU when they voted NO ?

    You argument holds little water with me
    I'm also against the continued politicisation of the EU, so I think we actually somewhat in agreement there. Although our influence may not be automatically felt (partly because we're also working alongside 26 other member states) that doesn't mean however that it isn't there or that the decision making processes aren't democratic. Leaving the EU is still a hypothetical so no-one can say exactly what our influence will be, but the Norwegian experience shows that being when a country's economy is aligned closely with the EU but outside of it, then policies are effectively dictated at the country in question without representation granted in return. I don't want that type of settlement for the UK.
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    (Original post by zk47)
    In Germany the Nazis rose to power through an economic depression (doesn't that sound like the recession right now) and they also rose to power because they opposed the treaty of Versailles( that is very much like Britain having to follow the rules of Europe) so I don't think we want to go the same way as Germany in those times, I'm not saying they're nazis just that they hold very racially verging beliefs, though I do agree with their views on slowing Immigration down as the country is getting too full to supply its people.
    I don't think you're aware of the scale of the problems facing Germany in the 1930s and how they dwarfed what we're going through at the moment. Also I can't see Farage forcing constitutional change or staging armed uprisings to be honest.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    I'm also against the continued politicisation of the EU, so I think we actually somewhat in agreement there. Although our influence may not be automatically felt (partly because we're also working alongside 26 other member states) that doesn't mean however that it isn't there or that the decision making processes aren't democratic. Leaving the EU is still a hypothetical so no-one can say exactly what our influence will be, but the Norwegian experience shows that being when a country's economy is aligned closely with the EU but outside of it, then policies are effectively dictated at the country in question without representation granted in return. I don't want that type of settlement for the UK.
    Norway - A country with a GDP higher per capita than the UK. Who have one of the strongest economies in Europe relative to their population, that has a higher standard of living and human development than the UK. Same story with Switzerland.

    What is so unenviable about Norways position in Europe ??? They seem to be doing fine outside the EU to me ???
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    (Original post by Ace123)
    free movement has totally destroyed this country and referring to political and social rights, whilst Germany and France were still under despots the UK introduced all these rights first and used them to better effect then the EU does now
    (Original post by The Islander)
    I am for freedom of movement for certain nations. I think it is silly to be for freedom of movement for any EU country. inward EU immigration is simply not reciporical.
    Well, Britain is still here and still going (relatively) strong, so I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that freedom of movement has destroyed this country. Freedom of movement isn't just immigration though, it also gives you the freedom to travel across Europe freely (thus saving the average citizen and larger businesses money), opens up borders (which also improves international trade and relations) and fosters greater market opportunities for businesses. It has its downsides, but I'd argue they are outweighed by the positives.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    Norway - A country with a GDP higher per capita than the UK. Who have one of the strongest economies in Europe relative to their population, that has a higher standard of living and human development than the UK. Same story with Switzerland.

    What is so unenviable about Norways position in Europe ??? They seem to be doing fine outside the EU to me ???
    And Norway and Switzerland don't have to waste billions on a nuclear deterrent, something which UKIP think is essential for the UK.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    What bargaining position will we have when the EU is moves closer and closer towards being completely federal and completely integrated ???
    Less, which is why I am against greater European federalisation.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well, Britain is still here and still going (relatively) strong, so I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that freedom of movement has destroyed this country. Freedom of movement isn't just immigration though, it also gives you the freedom to travel across Europe freely (thus saving the average citizen and larger businesses money), opens up borders (which also improves international trade and relations) and fosters greater market opportunities for businesses. It has its downsides, but I'd argue they are outweighed by the positives.
    Freedom of movement in the EU means full access to any countries jobs markets and welfare. It does not mean merely being able to go on holiday without a visa.

    And opening uop borders does not in anyway make it easier to trade, there are always barriers to trading with different countries. It is not any easier to trade with France than it is with America or Canada.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Well, Britain is still here and still going (relatively) strong, so I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that freedom of movement has destroyed this country. Freedom of movement isn't just immigration though, it also gives you the freedom to travel across Europe freely (thus saving the average citizen and larger businesses money), opens up borders (which also improves international trade and relations) and fosters greater market opportunities for businesses. It has its downsides, but I'd argue they are outweighed by the positives.
    outweighed by the positives- queuing in the eu aisle at airports outweighs the disadvantages. opening up borders does require free movement or eu membership as other nations outside the eu freely trade very easily with eu nations
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    And Norway and Switzerland don't have to waste billions on a nuclear deterrent, something which UKIP think is essential for the UK.
    A nucleaer deterrent is important if we want to remain in NATO. However this is irrevelent to this discussion.
 
 
 
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