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    (Original post by Ace123)
    you say they are not trying to destroy us but several attempts have been made to move the city of london (12% of our gdp) over to frankfurt.
    Do you have a source for that?

    (Original post by The Islander)
    Democratic as in the past with the Netherlands votting twice NO to the Mastricht treaty. Or when Ireland voted NO ??

    Are you implying that the EU is pro democracy ?
    Overriding those votes was wrong (indeed, I may have voted against the Lisbon Treaty if I had been Irish), but I am discussing the internal decision making processes of the EU - there is the chance for democratic input, but reform is greatly needed in that regard.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Do you have a source for that?



    Overriding those votes was wrong (indeed, I may have voted against the Lisbon Treaty if I had been Irish), but I am discussing the internal decision making processes of the EU - there is the chance for democratic input, but reform is greatly needed in that regard.
    Your argument really is non-existant. You are saying that the EU should reform this and that, that is not an argument for being aprt of the EU. That is just saying "we'll the EU it should be like this, but its not"
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Do you have a source for that?

    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...don-john-major

    a very good article
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    Norway - A country with a GDP higher per capita than the UK. Who have one of the strongest economies in Europe relative to their population, that has a higher standard of living and human development than the UK. Same story with Switzerland.

    What is so unenviable about Norways position in Europe ??? They seem to be doing fine outside the EU to me ???
    Norway do very well outside the EU, but that doesn't mean that they're getting the best settlement that they possibly can from the EU by being outside of the Union. That's a debate though which I'm not too knowledgeable on, there are always other factors influencing EU membership discussions.
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    On the outside , UKIP seem like the perfect party - putting British interests first , saving the country from the ' crisis ' its in. However as i scrolled down to the policies section of UKIP , things just went from " ahh they're not bad " to " oh dear me , they are truly delusional "

    Some of their policies are downright ridiculous , and whilst i personally agree with a fair few of them - they are simply NOT realistic . Lets take this prison policy as an example , UKIP seem to believe that they can sort out UK's prison population problems by doubling the number of prisons across the country. In principle ? Fantastic. In reality ? Ludicrous. the country is already in enough debt as it is , where would UKIP gain the money AND the land required for building these prisons ? They would have to resort to borrowing ( increasing UK Debt ) or making spending cuts in another region of the economy ( maybe one such as Education , which would cause pretty big problems )

    Then there's the issue of the EU . I again agree that staying at our current position inside the EU is pretty bad , and we do need to start moving away from the EU - however a pro-euro could argue here it would affect trading with countries such as France and Germany - as for this i myself am not sure as to whether the effect would be VERY detrimental , or not as detrimental as Pro-Euro's would want us to believe , so i won't make a comment . However the whole issue of " Britain will lose its say at the table " ask yourself this - did we have that much of a say in the first place ? Not even going to talk about the " 75% of our Laws are dictated by Brussels " bit because i can tell you now thats a blatant lie , its actually more in the region of 10-20% ( Source : http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/06/w...e-from-the-eu/ )
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Norway do very well outside the EU, but that doesn't mean that they're getting the best settlement that they possibly can from the EU by being outside of the Union. That's a debate though which I'm not too knowledgeable on, there are always other factors influencing EU membership discussions.
    Your sentiments sound very much to me like the EU is envitable and we must join otherwise we will be far worse off. I simply do not agree.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    Freedom of movement in the EU means full access to any countries jobs markets and welfare. It does not mean merely being able to go on holiday without a visa.
    Yes, I am aware of that. That's why I wrote "Freedom of movement isn't just immigration though".

    (Original post by The Islander)
    And opening uop borders does not in anyway make it easier to trade, there are always barriers to trading with different countries. It is not any easier to trade with France than it is with America or Canada.
    Well it does - it's easier to trade with another country if you can travel there without having to spend money on visas and lose time in immigration processing. And by having standardised trading regulations, there are less hoops to jump through when trading in Europe.
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    (Original post by Converse Rocker)
    So you might as well just call it marriage, right? We don't need two names for the same thing.

    I really need to read what else UKIP stand for, it's almost the same issue as the Green Party - once they fix this one thing, what else do they actually want to do? Not asking for links, I'll try and find it out.
    The definition of marriage:
    The formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife.
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    It's interesting to see how many people view the UKIP's fairly standardly "conservative" positions as outrageous and out-there. People have become so used to the ideological centre-ground convergence of the three main parties, that anything which distorts from this norm suddenly shocks them.

    UKIP's policies can be described as mostly Thatcherite and New Right Conservatism. Twenty years ago, no-one would have batted an eyelid at the Conservative Party having identical positions in many areas.

    With regards to UKIP's success, it is truly amazing, that even in this extremely left-leaning forum the party is animatedly supported by quite a large minority, especially regarding Europe. Many do not realise how amazing the UKIP rise of popularity is, political parties do not just rise up overnight. It's virtually impossible in fact in our electoral system, that in it self is testament to the frustration of a silent majority of the British public who simply want common-sense policies.

    Labour has been a failure because they can't grasp simple fundamental economic principles, such as you can't spend your way out of a recession.

    Conservatives are dropping in support because they are conservative only in name, they are a watered-down populist party now.

    The Greens are a real single-issue party so will never succeed, and the respect party is merely accomadating an Islamic/socialist protest vote.
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    (Original post by Fas)
    On the outside , UKIP seem like the perfect party - putting British interests first , saving the country from the ' crisis ' its in. However as i scrolled down to the policies section of UKIP , things just went from " ahh they're not bad " to " oh dear me , they are truly delusional "

    Some of their policies are downright ridiculous , and whilst i personally agree with a fair few of them - they are simply NOT realistic . Lets take this prison policy as an example , UKIP seem to believe that they can sort out UK's prison population problems by doubling the number of prisons across the country. In principle ? Fantastic. In reality ? Ludicrous. the country is already in enough debt as it is , where would UKIP gain the money AND the land required for building these prisons ? They would have to resort to borrowing ( increasing UK Debt ) or making spending cuts in another region of the economy ( maybe one such as Education , which would cause pretty big problems )

    Then there's the issue of the EU . I again agree that staying at our current position inside the EU is pretty bad , and we do need to start moving away from the EU - however a pro-euro could argue here it would affect trading with countries such as France and Germany - as for this i myself am not sure as to whether the effect would be VERY detrimental , or not as detrimental as Pro-Euro's would want us to believe , so i won't make a comment . However the whole issue of " Britain will lose its say at the table " ask yourself this - did we have that much of a say in the first place ? Not even going to talk about the " 75% of our Laws are dictated by Brussels " bit because i can tell you now thats a blatant lie , its actually more in the region of 10-20% ( Source : http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/06/w...e-from-the-eu/ )
    in regards to the prison the majority of the public think criminal justice is too weak and would support harsher sentences and there would be more space as you would be able to deport foreign criminals which the eu does not currently allow
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    Yes, I am aware of that. That's why I wrote "Freedom of movement isn't just immigration though".



    Well it does - it's easier to trade with another country if you can travel there without having to spend money on visas and lose time in immigration processing. And by having standardised trading regulations, there are less hoops to jump through when trading in Europe.
    but we do not have standardised trading arrangements in the EU. Different taxation different internal laws are all barriers to trade. There are no less barriers to trading with eu partners for britain than there are norway. Who says that leaving the eu will mean that we we will need visas to travel to France or Germany ?
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    Your argument really is non-existant. You are saying that the EU should reform this and that, that is not an argument for being aprt of the EU. That is just saying "we'll the EU it should be like this, but its not"
    You know it is possible to be in favour of something without having to unconditionally accept it in its present form, warts and all? No political settlement is ever perfect and the EU is in urgent need of reform (as I have said right out from my first post). Whilst that doesn't mean we should automatically continue our membership, it doesn't mean that we should jump ship either - we have influence through our membership of the EU, and hopefully we can use that influence to scale back the more restrictive aspects of the EU whilst still enjoying the benefits of membership.
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    I feel very similarly about the green party.

    Simply put it's because people put different emphasis on different political issues, and for me at least Europe barely even features.
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    (Original post by The Islander)
    A nucleaer deterrent is important if we want to remain in NATO. However this is irrevelent to this discussion.
    Norway manages to remain in NATO and it doesn't have nuclear weapons? Why does the UK taxpayer have to get conned that it is essential that we blow billions on the deterrent, when Norway seems to be going fine without it?

    And Switzerland isn't in NATO or any military group and its economy seems to be doing just fine as well.
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    (Original post by Eloquai)
    You know it is possible to be in favour of something without having to unconditionally accept it in its present form, warts and all? No political settlement is ever perfect and the EU is in urgent need of reform (as I have said right out from my first post). Whilst that doesn't mean we should automatically continue our membership, it doesn't mean that we should jump ship either - we have influence through our membership of the EU, and hopefully we can use that influence to scale back the more restrictive aspects of the EU whilst still enjoying the benefits of membership.
    we have no influence look at the budget debates the uk cannot afford any more money and the other nations ganged up together because all our money goes to them. France will never give up farming subsidies, eastern states will not give up immigration so how is the uk meant to make any reform we could hypotheticallt create a perfect system and they would still not adopt it
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    Well that doesn't sound like the greatest policy ever thought up, but it's also not exactly indicative of a secret EU plan to move the City to Frankfurt.
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    (Original post by JackM95)
    It's interesting to see how many people view the UKIP's fairly standardly "conservative" positions as outrageous and out-there. People have become so used to the ideological centre-ground convergence of the three main parties, that anything which distorts from this norm suddenly shocks them.

    UKIP's policies can be described as mostly Thatcherite and New Right Conservatism. Twenty years ago, no-one would have batted an eyelid at the Conservative Party having identical positions in many areas.

    With regards to UKIP's success, it is truly amazing, that even in this extremely left-leaning forum the party is animatedly supported by quite a large minority, especially regarding Europe. Many do not realise how amazing the UKIP rise of popularity is, political parties do not just rise up overnight. It's virtually impossible in fact in our electoral system, that in it self is testament to the frustration of a silent majority of the British public who simply want common-sense policies.

    Labour has been a failure because they can't grasp simple fundamental economic principles, such as you can't spend your way out of a recession.

    Conservatives are dropping in support because they are conservative only in name, they are a watered-down populist party now.

    The Greens are a real single-issue party so will never succeed, and the respect party is merely accomadating an Islamic/socialist protest vote.
    Denying climate change is common sense now is it?
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Norway manages to remain in NATO and it doesn't have nuclear weapons? Why does the UK taxpayer have to get conned that it is essential that we blow billions on the deterrent, when Norway seems to be going fine without it?

    And Switzerland isn't in NATO or any military group and its economy seems to be doing just fine as well.
    Because you have not taken into account Norway or switzerlands annual defence budget into consideration, in comparsion to Britain or France.

    And even then it is more complex than that
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    (Original post by Bord3r)
    Denying climate change is common sense now is it?
    It is not denying climate change it is the cause of climate change which we need to be more open minded about
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    (Original post by Ace123)
    in regards to the prison the majority of the public think criminal justice is too weak and would support harsher sentences and there would be more space as you would be able to deport foreign criminals which the eu does not currently allow
    yep i agree there is the point that criminal justice is too weak ( life SHOULD mean life ) however the main issue facing the parties is how to enforce that without making it detrimental on other areas of the economy . Plus theres also the idea that we need to focus on " curing " criminals so that they dont commit crime again - fair enough one way of doing it is harsh punishment putting more people off committing crime .

    Yes i agree leaving the EU is what needs to happen - make space for more criminals . May not be the best solution , but definitely better than wasting money into doubling the prisons across the country.
 
 
 
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