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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Did anyone see this piece in the Independent? "Voters 'brainwashed by Tory welfare myths', shows new poll"

    The report in the paper had some charts and things which looked quite pretty. It is an interesting read anyway.

    As a side note - I have seen references to the Work Capability Assessment in some posts. Absolutely no problem with such a thing, however it is how it is conducted which is an issue.
    I read this the other day. Its just left wing propaganda, designed to keep people out and work and dependant for their cash fix from the state.

    Also it seems thats the TUC think they know better than the british people. Maybe Brendan Barber would like to contribute some of his massivily salary to paying down the deficet which he dosn't seem to want to talk about.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    I read this the other day. Its just left wing propaganda, designed to keep people out and work and dependant for their cash fix from the state.

    Also it seems thats the TUC think they know better than the british people. Maybe Brendan Barber would like to contribute some of his massivily salary to paying down the deficet which he dosn't seem to want to talk about.
    I disagree. The research merely contrasts perceptions with reality. Saying that people think that 41% of the welfare budget goes to the unemployed, when in fact the actual figure is 3% is just stating fact.
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      (Original post by L i b)
      Selling council houses has not led to a housing shortage, but instead removed families from the council system.

      I also remind you that in another thread, about criminals, you were discussing how someone's responses are guided not out of some instinct towards badness, but rather their circumstances and upbringing. Yet oddly enough, in here you see fit to condemn a woman as evil. A woman who, despite your politics, believed she was doing the best by this country and worked tirelessly for its improvement.
      Thatcher's selling off of council houses was ideologically motivated. The council house represented, and still represents, an expression of how our basic human needs, for shelter, can be satisfied without us being subject to the money-grubbing practices of the market; in the form of not-for-profit homes. Such a prominent socialist provision just had to go and damn the many subsequent people who would go homeless or suffer extortionate rents, she didn't give a flying. I can't defend Labour on the issue though, they never made any attempt to re-establish council housing as a central socialist aim (they were no longer socialists when they got into power in 1997 of course).

      You're right that there's something of a contradiction in my willingness to characterise Thatcher as evil, though to be fair I did, if imperfectly, qualify it. I guess that despite my understanding I still can't always step out of my instinctive human disposition to interpret behaviour in moral terms. Perhaps, if I was feeling more charitable, I should only refer to the consequences of her blindly ideological actions as evil.
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      (Original post by Oswy)
      This is another example of Thatcher's hostility to socialist ideas coming before any other consideration, damn the consequences. The principle of council housing is that it consitutes not-for-profit homes for, at least, those who struggle to pay rents or pay mortgages to the capitalist class. Thatcher recognised that council housing (like the NHS) was an obvious and popular socialist idea which further fostered the idea that we don't have to be subject to market forces for our most basic human needs, in this case shelter. As much as an atheist like myself can characterise someone as evil, she is it. Now there's a chronic housing shortage like never before and private rents for poor people are sky-high. She is disgusting.
      I'd say that we don't need a socialist ideal, all we really need is to allow the right to buy but sell at a price which allows the state to build a new property. In the Mhoc i believe one of the Greens referenced a figure of £107k as being the average cost of a 2 bedroom build before profit (including solar panels fitted), as such logic dictates that we keep the right to buy but just don't sell at a price lower than £107k.

      We can have our cake and eat it.
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      (Original post by InnerTemple)
      I disagree. The research merely contrasts perceptions with reality. Saying that people think that 41% of the welfare budget goes to the unemployed, when in fact the actual figure is 3% is just stating fact.

      If we polled the membership of the TUC about the public debt, I am sure we would get some interesting results there as well.

      However....

      Regardless of the voters believe, spending on welfare is too high, the debt is too high. You dont need a Phd to work out what to do next.
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      (Original post by dj1015)

      However....

      Regardless of the voters believe, spending on welfare is too high, the debt is too high. You dont need a Phd to work out what to do next.
      If we can afford to give the rich people a tax cut, we can't be in that much debt.
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      (Original post by dj1015)
      Regardless of the voters believe, spending on welfare is too high, the debt is too high. You dont need a Phd to work out what to do next.
      Create more jobs? Basically anything other than savage cuts.
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      Everyone should be entitled to the basics they need to survive comfortably as a human right. Nutritious food, a home with enough space for a person and their family, clean water, hygene facilities (flushing toilet, the basic means to keep clean) access to medical care, warmth, clothing and the means to gain employment. Anything beyond the basics should be considered as luxuries and have to be earned. Nobody should have to struggle for basic survival
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        (Original post by Rakas21)
        I'd say that we don't need a socialist ideal...
        Sure but I wouldn't expect you to agree with me, I'm a Marxist and you're a Tory after all. Likewise I can't seriously entertain your ideas because they exist within the normative ideological framework of capitalism itself.
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        (Original post by InnerTemple)
        Create more jobs? Basically anything other than savage cuts.
        So you solution to paying down the debt is to create more debt by needlessly increasing the size of the public sector again...

        right............
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          (Original post by Kabloomybuzz)
          Everyone should be entitled to the basics they need to survive comfortably as a human right. Nutritious food, a home with enough space for a person and their family, clean water, hygene facilities (flushing toilet, the basic means to keep clean) access to medical care, warmth, clothing and the means to gain employment. Anything beyond the basics should be considered as luxuries and have to be earned. Nobody should have to struggle for basic survival
          The problem is that capitalism will not suffer a barrier. Today there's more than enough wealth and production to ensure everyone has a decent home, decent food, decent clothing and so on but as these are all potential avenues of capital accumulation by the capitalist class they are as far as possible subject to marketisation as practicable. It's probably only a matter of time before council houses, the NHS and state run police and prisons are handed over to profit-orientated enterprises. State education, I suspect, will be the last to go as without it the masses cannot be easily prepared for the labour they will be expected to do for the capitalist class - and God forbit they start educating themselves about politics, history and their conditions of alienation and exploitation. No, I think state education is probably the one concession which capitalism will make because it is its greater interest to provide via the capitalist-state.
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          (Original post by OU Student)
          If we can afford to give the rich people a tax cut, we can't be in that much debt.
          I know your blinded by idological thinking. But 50% isnt all its cracked to be. Let me explain this to you another way, that way maybe you will see the error in your arugment.

          We can all agree that the best tax system is the one that yeilds the highest recipts? Yes


          Okay. So for this happen tax levels must be set at the correct level. What is the correct level you ask. Well it could be 50%, it could be 40%. It could even be 60%.

          However, the rich people can often find ways of avoiding paying tax all together. So ways must be found to get them to pay. We all agree with that as well.

          So logic and evidence will show, that as you increase the rate of tax on top earners, tax recipts fall. If you decrease the rate of tax of the wealth creators, the tax recipts will increase.

          So 45% is not unfair, infact is most likely to high. I would be lower now, but I suspect that the lib dems are holding the tories back.

          It would also like to point out that under the last goverment the top rate of tax was 40% for most of it. So labour supporters can just shut up.
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          (Original post by Oswy)
          The problem is that capitalism will not suffer a barrier. Today there's more than enough wealth and production to ensure everyone has a decent home, decent food, decent clothing and so on but as these are all potential avenues of capital accumulation by the capitalist class they are as far as possible subject to marketisation as practicable. It's probably only a matter of time before council houses, the NHS and state run police and prisons are handed over to profit-orientated enterprises. State education, I suspect, will be the last to go as without it the masses cannot be easily prepared for the labour they will be expected to do for the capitalist class - and God forbit they start educating themselves about politics, history and their conditions of alienation and exploitation. No, I think state education is probably the one concession which capitalism will make because it is its greater interest to provide via the capitalist-state.
          I'd actually agree with privately run prisons.

          Education could actually be done to a larger degree via an educational voucher system.

          Health in the UK will be the last to go completely.


          (Original post by Oswy)
          Sure but I wouldn't expect you to agree with me, I'm a Marxist and you're a Tory after all. Likewise I can't seriously entertain your ideas because they exist within the normative ideological framework of capitalism itself.
          Fair point.
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          The problem is media bias against welfare,tens of millions of people receive it. But it only takes the focus on one family that exploit the system or a few local girls that pop out kids to prevent themselves from working and everyone is condemned.

          You do know most people in receipt of welfare work? And even then life is a struggle. It's not their fault this country and its economy and politicians are so useless and ineffective it doesn't allow people to support themselves independently.
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          (Original post by Maxisussex)
          The problem is media bias against welfare,tens of millions of people receive it. But it only takes the focus on one family that exploit the system or a few local girls that pop out kids to prevent themselves from working and everyone is condemned.

          You do know most people in receipt of welfare work? And even then life is a struggle. It's not their fault this country and its economy and politicians are so useless and ineffective it doesn't allow people to support themselves independently.
          The real problem is, is the public debt is incrasing by £446,575,342.00 per day. So faced with the choice of taking away some pocket money from some labour voting scoungers and lumbering future generations with massive debt, its not hard to decide.
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          (Original post by dj1015)
          The real problem is, is the public debt is incrasing by £446,575,342.00 per day. So faced with the choice of taking away some pocket money from some labour voting scoungers and lumbering future generations with massive debt, its not hard to decide.
          Pocket money? Yeah paying for food and bills you couldn't otherwise afford is "pocket money" You sound like an immature,wannabe Tory,with no ****ing idea about the real world. Your views read like some right-wing trash rag paper that spreads the belief poor people are just scroungers.

          The choice isn't about making WORKING people suffer,the choice is put some effort into dragging this country up from the cesspit ****hole dump that the ruling elite (ironically all Oxbridge educated,privileged ****ers) have forced us into for their benefit.
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          (Original post by Maxisussex)
          Pocket money? Yeah paying for food and bills you couldn't otherwise afford is "pocket money" You sound like an immature,wannabe Tory,with no ****ing idea about the real world. Your views read like some right-wing trash rag paper that spreads the belief poor people are just scroungers.

          The choice isn't about making WORKING people suffer,the choice is put some effort into dragging this country up from the cesspit ****hole dump that the ruling elite (ironically all Oxbridge educated,privileged ****ers) have forced us into for their benefit.
          But how does cutting welfare benefit Cameron personnaly?

          Do you think he gets off over pictures of people queing for food banks.

          I would also like to point out most professional politians are PPE grads from oxbridge. So you can lump Labour in that boat as well.

          On a more seroius note, the public debt is real. Is not just a number on a computer. If you suddenly found your self with this level of equivilent debt, I very much doubt you would just brush it aside. Its everyones problem and someone has to pay to get rid of it. The rich already pay more than their fair share, so its time everyone else coughed up as well.
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          (Original post by dj1015)
          On a more seroius note, the public debt is real. Is not just a number on a computer. If you suddenly found your self with this level of equivilent debt, I very much doubt you would just brush it aside.
          Take note that it isn't quite accurate to compare personal debt to sovereign debt. The two are different.
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          (Original post by Maxisussex)
          Pocket money? Yeah paying for food and bills you couldn't otherwise afford is "pocket money" You sound like an immature,wannabe Tory,with no ****ing idea about the real world. Your views read like some right-wing trash rag paper that spreads the belief poor people are just scroungers.

          The choice isn't about making WORKING people suffer,the choice is put some effort into dragging this country up from the cesspit ****hole dump that the ruling elite (ironically all Oxbridge educated,privileged ****ers) have forced us into for their benefit.
          Why don't they find some way to find that extra money then. There's always ways to create some money out of nowhere. It isn't difficult. However I think the posters original point refers to the thousands of benefit scroungers in the north east of england who have never worked an hour in their lives?
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          (Original post by uktotalgamer)
          Why don't they find some way to find that extra money then. There's always ways to create some money out of nowhere.
          Pray tell.
         
         
         
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