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Typical ignorant transphobia from Daily Mail and its readership? Watch

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    (Original post by FrogInABog)
    Seriously, you're not helping your cause. I don't have much of a problem with people seeing themselves as male/female (or whatever the correct terminology is...), but it really irritates me when some people jump at every opportunity to 'correct' others on the matter. It's complicated enough as it is without being told that man=/=male or woman=/=female.
    I apologise for politely trying to educate someone. I don't jump at every opportunity, I was just posting there. I haven't been through the whole thread and corrected everything, have I?
    And it isn't as complicated as some people make it out. My uni's Sex and Gender department (or they're a sub-department of another department, I can't remember) covered the basics in an hour long seminar. Hank Green covered it in a sub 4 minute video. And it doesn't get all that complicated until you're told that man=/=male in all case or woman=/=female in all cases...
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    Imo, the dm is nothing short of offensive. Not to mention a chronic waste if trees. Sure everyone is allowed thier opinion ect but i find it hard to belive anyone with half a brain could agree with a word thier journalists write. Iam not suprised at these comments i would expect nothing less from people who buy the dm. I still cant work out who they despise the most - Benefit scroungers or tory elite? Unrelated rant over just so annoyed by these ridiculas comments.
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    (Original post by Arnob204)
    Sex and Gender classes... what are you studying? Sociologists opinions do not trump scientific research. Have you seen my above post where I provided links to disprove the idea that gender is a social construct? Is that a view you subscribe to?
    I study psychology. The classes were put on by a different department but were open to everyone in an attempt to educate people about the issues.
    And no, gender isn't something you pick and choose from, it's something you have in your mind that generally doesn't change. But to say that certain aspects are masculine and make you a man and certain aspects are feminine and make you a woman is a social construct.

    Saying he runs one of the most subscribed-to channels on youtube is an argumentem ad populum, what are his credentials?
    He has a degree in Chemistry and is supported by a team of researchers.

    Journal arguments written by whom? Scientists? Or those with an agenda to push?
    Psychologists in peer reviewed journals.
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    I apologise for politely trying to educate someone. I don't jump at every opportunity, I was just posting there. I haven't been through the whole thread and corrected everything, have I?
    And it isn't as complicated as some people make it out. My uni's Sex and Gender department (or they're a sub-department of another department, I can't remember) covered the basics in an hour long seminar. Hank Green covered it in a sub 4 minute video. And it doesn't get all that complicated until you're told that man=/=male in all case or woman=/=female in all cases...
    You still haven't responded to my questions. Your 'sex and gender' classes are a joke. Find me any scientific evidence that conclusively proves that gender is a social construct and thousands of years of evolution are completely irrelevant.
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    (Original post by Arnob204)
    You still haven't responded to my questions. Your 'sex and gender' classes are a joke. Find me any scientific evidence that conclusively proves that gender is a social construct and thousands of years of evolution are completely irrelevant.
    You do realise that the scientific method cannot conclusively prove anything to be true?
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    You were the one that pointed out that we refer to people by their gender. And it isn't disrespectful to expect people not to insult you whenever they refer to you. And the social zeitgeist means very little, if it was still acceptable to refer to gay people in exclusively derogatory terms, I wouldn't do it.
    You're right. Which is kind of my point. There is a difference between self-proclaimed gender, and perceived gender. And you cannot expect everybody to instantaneously know the correct terminology in confusing and ill defined cases such as transgender. When people refer to a transgender as a something which they do not identify, they do not mean offense. Referring to somebody as a 'she' when they preferred to be called a "he" is no derogatory. It is a pronoun describing the person in a way which they would prefer to not be described. It is not necessarily self-evident how they wished to be described, and not everyone is aware of the correct way to address them.
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    You do realise that the scientific method cannot conclusively prove anything to be true?
    That's debatable, but even if it was true, are you seriously saying that ideological opinions of sociologists trumps scientifically gathered data?

    You have provided nothing so far, and have avoided answering all my question. As well as ignoring my links which demonstrate the faulty logic of the whole 'gender-studies' crowd, all you have done is question the validity of the scientific method, which is a laughable attempt at a rebuttal.
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    How is the NHS or surgery infact supposed to make her boy?
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    You're right. Which is kind of my point. There is a difference between self-proclaimed gender, and perceived gender. And you cannot expect everybody to instantaneously know the correct terminology in confusing and ill defined cases such as transgender. When people refer to a transgender as a something which they do not identify, they do not mean offense. Referring to somebody as a 'she' when they preferred to be called a "he" is no derogatory. It is a pronoun describing the person in a way which they would prefer to not be described. It is not necessarily self-evident how they wished to be described, and not everyone is aware of the correct way to address them.
    But in this case it appears pretty obvious (to me at least) that if he's looking at getting sex reassignment surgery then he is a he and should be known as such.
    Fair enough, when there's doubt you can go with what you perceive but once you know then it is disrespectful to refer to them the opposite way round. And, if you're not 100% and know the person to be trans, there isn't anything wrong with asking either (granted not possible in this case).
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    (Original post by Arnob204)
    That's debatable, but even if it was true, are you seriously saying that ideological opinions of sociologists trumps scientifically gathered data?

    You have provided nothing so far, and have avoided answering all my question. As well as ignoring my links which demonstrate the faulty logic of the whole 'gender-studies' crowd, all you have done is question the validity of the scientific method, which is a laughable attempt at a rebuttal.
    I haven't avoided answering your questions, I answered them in an earlier post.
    Scientifically gathered data from those in the medical community assessing those who are transsexual is what I'm trusting. And my personal experience with trans individuals on this forum and in real life. And things I saw in psychological journals which are at uni while I'm at home but if you give me a week I'll be able to get for you (at least I think they're still in my file). Users NYU2012 and Rand'Zul'Zorander tend to have them to hand, but they're on holiday at the moment .
    And I didn't question the validity of the scientific method, I questioned your application of the scientific method when asking me for 'proof'.
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    But in this case it appears pretty obvious (to me at least) that if he's looking at getting sex reassignment surgery then he is a he and should be known as such.
    Fair enough, when there's doubt you can go with what you perceive but once you know then it is disrespectful to refer to them the opposite way round. And, if you're not 100% and know the person to be trans, there isn't anything wrong with asking either (granted not possible in this case).
    I certainly would agree that if someone explicitly says they want to be referred to as a 'she' or a 'he', and then someone refuses. That would be disrespectful. I'm not sure if Best made this clear or not, judging from the interview I don't think he minds.
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...tion-star.html

    FIRSTLY, Daily Mail, "Best" is a HE. NOT a "girl" or a "she"... a BOY. It does not take much effort to treat people the way they would like to be treated. Does it really matter what genitalia this person has? Is it REALLY going to ruin your day if you call them "he", in line with their identification as a male? Also the way they bring about this article, as if looking like Harry Styles is why she is doing it, is kind of trying to make a mockery out of her disorder.
    That's not really a big issue though... my problem lies with the retard comments..

    some people are soooooo stupid and ignorant! this is a serious disorder than can drive people to SUICIDE. it needs to be recognised and yes, TREATED, on the NHS.
    "All Daily Mail readers are idiots, bla bla" :yawn: Seriously, the vast majority of the comments hit the nail on the head. Of course, some of them are stupid and ignorant comments, but not the majority. Yes, it's definitely insensitive of the DM to refer to Best as "her" (but then to be fair, Best actually refers to himself as looking like One Directions "sister" so... :dontknow: I doubt it was intentional, acting as though Daily Mail and all of its readers are "trans-phobic" is a bit extreme to say the least).

    The bit I've emboldened/underlined - transgender isn't a HUGE deal anymore, the majority of cases aren't deemed newsworthy because it's not as shocking as it used to be (at least in the UK). What's made this story news-worthy is that Best went public about his desire to look like Harry Styles, lead singer one of the most successful bands of the moment (killed me to type that, haha, but that's a whole other issue! :unimpressed:). Saying "I want to change my gender" won't generate a lot of interest, saying "I want to change my gender and look like Harry Styles" is obviously going to attract attention.
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    I apologise for politely trying to educate someone. I don't jump at every opportunity, I was just posting there. I haven't been through the whole thread and corrected everything, have I?
    And it isn't as complicated as some people make it out. My uni's Sex and Gender department (or they're a sub-department of another department, I can't remember) covered the basics in an hour long seminar. Hank Green covered it in a sub 4 minute video. And it doesn't get all that complicated until you're told that man=/=male in all case or woman=/=female in all cases...
    Fair enough, I apologise for directing my anger at you! I just see it from certain people (both on here and in real life) a fair bit, so I tend to get worked up by seemingly pedantic corrections. I still maintain that the issue is one of immense complexity; the fact that your University has an entire department dedicated to the study of sex and gender is testament to that!
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    (Original post by FrogInABog)
    Fair enough, I apologise for directing my anger at you! I just see it from certain people (both on here and in real life) a fair bit, so I tend to get worked up by seemingly pedantic corrections. I still maintain that the issue is one of immense complexity; the fact that your University has an entire department dedicated to the study of sex and gender is testament to that!
    I don't know if it's a whole department or a sub department but they did seminars available to the whole university, so it's a pretty big sub department if it's a sub department.
    And I won't correct people in general conversation, that is pedantic. But in a debate about it, and particularly where people are using it as a part of their argument, I will do my best to educate (and hopefully not appear to be being snotty as I do it, tone doesn't transfer in text).
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    I haven't avoided answering your questions, I answered them in an earlier post.
    Scientifically gathered data from those in the medical community assessing those who are transsexual is what I'm trusting. And my personal experience with trans individuals on this forum and in real life. And things I saw in psychological journals which are at uni while I'm at home but if you give me a week I'll be able to get for you (at least I think they're still in my file). Users NYU2012 and Rand'Zul'Zorander tend to have them to hand, but they're on holiday at the moment .
    And I didn't question the validity of the scientific method, I questioned your application of the scientific method when asking me for 'proof'.
    I'd be very interested in seeing these journals. As I've already mentioned, I feel no ill-will to those who consider themselves to be born in the wrong body, but what I am attempting to refute is the specious notion that gender is a 'social-construct' and thousands of years of human evolution is completely irrelevant. I have already provided to links that demonstrate that eminent scientists disagree, I would like to know what it is that makes you believe that my view is wrong, a quick summary would be nice.
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    if you read the article (or better - watch the video) you will see that this person has struggled with gender identity throughout their life and harry styles is simply a style icon/physical role model... much like many girls choosing to dress like rihanna or guys like david beckham.
    You don't exactly seem to be decrying the issue of cost for wanting to look like someone.
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    (Original post by 2ndClass)
    How is the NHS or surgery infact supposed to make her boy?
    There are various steps she could take. Testosterone injections/cream are first. She'll start growing facial hair, sound different, look facially like a man, some degree of behavioural changes. Next step would be to chop her boobs off - simple and common operation for breast cancer so that's done easily enough. The final step would be removing her female reproductive organs +/- prosthetics to give male genitalia. That's pretty major surgery and its not done very often.

    The first two in particular aren't particularly expensive - the psychological therapy they'd otherwise be receiving is similar in price.

    Clearly, genetically he is still a girl, but outwardly and hormonally he would be a boy. You would not be able to tell the difference in a normal social setting.
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    While I think it would be respectful to call him a 'he', I don't think it's disrespectful to call him a 'she'.
    Then we disagree. If he has been asked to be called a he and you ignore that request, its just rude. I don't see why someone would deliberately do that other than to be an ass.

    It's for clarity, he is a she wanted to be a he. So calling him a she clarifies that he hasnt actually become a she yet.
    When would you classify him a 'she'. Would facial hair be enough? Or is it the boobs? Or would you have to inspect his genitalia before you were satisfied? Because technically he will always be female - we can't change genes. We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere.

    I don't see why asking to be a him is not sufficient for you.

    But more importantly, I think it's important to understand that referring to transgender people can be very confusing.
    Yes, it is! To be clear, mistakes are acceptable, and it should absolutely be acceptable to ask. Your view seems to be that one should deliberately antagonise though
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    I think the main problem that needed addressing was that she thinks she looks like Harry Styles. Next on the agenda is that Margaret Thatcher pouf she's got going on, which doesn't look anything like his hair either.
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    Ignorance from the Daily Mail, how shocked I am.

    The young gentleman in question is sexually female, gender male. You should address him how he wishes to be addressed, its only polite. Whether or not this condition warrants NHS funding is a matter that we don't really have all the information to be able to make an informed decision. Where else could the money be spent?
 
 
 
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