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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I entirely sympathise with that, it's because of things like that I joined the Labour Party. Class in this country is absolutely poisonous, set in amber... it's incredibly depressing. But the fact remains that even if you're the daughter of a duke, you're still considerably less likely than the son of a duke (or even men as a class) to get into what are considered the most elite practice areas of the most elite profesisons, into positons of authority etc

    Wealthy women, women from the ruling class, have always had more power than men of the working class in a general sense, but not in relation to their peers within their own class. Historically and now in many ways, women of whatever class are at an entire disadvantage compared to their male peers.

    Women from wealthier and more elite backgrounds should not be singled out, class and gender can and in many ways do exist as compartmentalised issues.



    The reason is that society is conservative, traditionally men had all the income and authority and so it made sense to make a "settlement" on a divorced woman. If women were superior to men in this way they would never have needed a "settlement". These days in the courts, at least in relation to financial settlement (and increasingly in custody issues) you do not see the same overly favourable situation for women.

    This has moved commensurately with increasing female participation in the workforce.



    From someone who is from what you call "the top", in terms of class, let me tell you that you couldn't be more wrong. If you think there is a level playing field between two people of equal intelligence, one of whom went to Eton and the other a bog-standard comp in Sheffield, you are under a very grave misapprehension.

    Let me tell you what the difference is. I was privately educated (in another country) and I've noticed that I and all my friends got pretty much most of our late teens and early 20s as a period to experiment and find ourselves and do what the **** we wanted on our parents dime. Almost all of us got serious by our mid-20s and have serious careers or academic pursuits.

    Working class people don't have that luxury. They have basically one shot at it unless they are ****ing extraordinary. It's a little hard to describe how much of a difference it is to know that you will never go without paid work because there is always a family connection who will give you a job interview, that your parents can always bail you out, that many of the people at the top of the corporate world are like you, and prefer being around people like themselves, and so will hire you over someone more qualified.

    Seriously, wake up.



    I suspect considerably more than you.



    I'm sorry, you've ceased to make any sense. You're basically arguing two mutually exclusive positions. Whatevs

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    Do you think of all people I know I onl have one shot to make something of my life, and as I already said I'm not even working class I'm from a council flat (underclass) as if I need to be reminded I know this and I rinsed my gcses like a glass, and the same with AS lvl.

    I have real pity for you being from the top sounds like hell. The top sounds like you could disregard education and could not give a monkeys.

    Of course not, that is so funny, I've seen many guys ending up where I live because their wives take than to court and economically destroy them, so no.

    Well you know that I'm anti marriage as I see how it can easily financially destroy a guy lol funny that divorce rates have been going up since the 60s irony?

    Thanks to hear that no matter how qualified I'll be ill never get to the top really made my day I might as well not go to university to be honest I was planning on Exeter and UofL or soton but its not worth it is it .

    I am awake and yes I'm aware there is old boy connections but really, what about the fact that I have raw talent, don't that mean anything :no:

    I doubt it unless you are doing a degree.

    Okay but why do MOST feminists hate men? I know they do. But we don't exactly set out to hate you or rape you rape isn't exactly common occurrences and I think it's disgusting.

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    No it's not fair some asshats at Eton who are probably less than ideal will get there and I won't what makes them better than me what Is it because father pennypinchfromtheworkers is there??

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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    No it's not fair some asshats at Eton who are probably less than ideal will get there and I won't what makes them better than me what Is it because father pennypinchfromtheworkers is there??
    What are you on about? I'm against this, I'm a socialist. I'm stating the facts.

    You seem to blame women for the plight of underclass or working class men. I blame the economic system and compartmentalise gender and class issues as necessary.

    Your posts make no sense, you seem confused.
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    Okay but why do MOST feminists hate men? I know they do. But we don't exactly set out to hate you or rape you rape isn't exactly common occurrences and I think it's disgusting.
    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not a feminist, I can't speak for them. In fact, I'm a homosocial gay guy so I'm probably the least qualified person to answer that.

    I think what I am at least qualified to speak about are the structural, social issues involved you seem to blame women generally, and particularly women from wealthy backgrounds. This makes no sense. That's all I'm trying to say
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    I have real pity for you being from the top sounds like hell. The top sounds like you could disregard education and could not give a monkeys.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think you have completely missed the point.

    Of course not, that is so funny, I've seen many guys ending up where I live because their wives take than to court and economically destroy them, so no.
    Give me an example, and I'm happy to comment. I'm studying law and I'm happy to discuss and debate its failings.

    Well you know that I'm anti marriage as I see how it can easily financially destroy a guy lol funny that divorce rates have been going up since the 60s irony?
    Correlation does not equal causation. I don't mean to be rude, but I can tell from the way you write that you've not read too deeply on the subject. It sounds like you've heard a few other people make some points that sound kinda impressive. Better off reading about feminist theory yourself, about understanding history and class and where, say, wealthy women stand both in relation to their male peers and to male and female members of the workign and underclass.

    Thanks to hear that no matter how qualified I'll be ill never get to the top
    Don't be a martyr, it's not a good look for a guy (or a girl, for that matter)
    really made my day I might as well not go to university to be honest I was planning on Exeter and UofL or soton but its not worth it is it .
    You seem to be under a grave misapprehension. Go back and read my posts, you might understand a little better what's been said.

    I am awake and yes I'm aware there is old boy connections but really, what about the fact that I have raw talent, don't that mean anything :no:
    Thank you for deigning to actually address the crux of the matter. Raw talent does matter. The point I was making was that, comparing two people of equal intelligence, someone from a wealthy background is likely to do better in terms of life expectancy, income, health outcomes etc.

    This is *particularly* true for *average* people. Take your average rich thicko and you'll find they don't do too badly half the time. Far better than if they'd been born in a sink estate. It simply comes from the advantages of having connections and a permanent safety net of money
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Okay but why do MOST feminists hate men? I know they do. But we don't exactly set out to hate you or rape you rape isn't exactly common occurrences and I think it's disgusting.
    I'm not a feminist, I can't speak for them. In fact, I'm a homosocial gay guy so I'm probably the least qualified person to answer that.

    I think what I am at least qualified to speak about are the structural, social issues involved you seem to blame women generally, and particularly women from wealthy backgrounds. This makes no sense. That's all I'm trying to say[/QUOTE]

    I'm too confused, a minute ago you supported feminists, now... Wow its just the system, well, the reason is all feminist stuff I've seen just ridicules men, what am I supposed to do just be happy with that? They hate us I haven't set out to attack them I'm just a kid with big ambitions they're angry at the system, but they're taking it out on the average guy.

    Oh well I know exactly what to do and I'm going to find a gap in the financial market, dominate the gap, buy off other companies, and I'm going to go out of my way to hinder the conservative monopoly board, I can't work for a society after I've seen how they treat people in poverty, by the way us "benefit scum" don't have plasma tvs and sky plus and heating, it's all lies. We have to push very hard to even get into Russell group, even ex poly is a good aim for half of our class. We aren't trying to ponce off the government, well not like as if I had a choice, I was born into it.

    There was this one kid who went to a private school who went to our sixth form, she asked me to help her with the homework. I don't get it do private schools teach by memorizing? I thought it was the concepts that were important. :confused:

    I don't hate women i just dislike feminists, they seem to hate men, I had to raise myself from 12 as my mum is a repeat sufferer of Neo-natal depression, I love my mom, I like girls, they're nice to me at college, I just need to be told why it's me who had to look after my mum and had to look after my brothers and the house, whilst studying. I guess I just want a scapegoat for the stress that I've had since my mum's been ill. I am nearly as bad as they are by blaming the average man, I went from blaming my dad to Christianity, to the area I live in, but its just hit me it's society, the monopoly board. I just don't know what to do I want to go to uni, but if I leave my family will fall apart and the local one is like rubbish. It want a challenge in education and I haven't been given one yet and I know an ex poly defiantly wouldn't.



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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    I'm too confused, a minute ago you supported feminists, now...
    ... I suppose equality. I don't label myself a feminist, I don't agree with the theory of patriarchy. Somehow, I suspect you haven't read up on what is required to say you subscribe to the ideology of feminism.

    Just because I don't believe that women's inequalities are caused a conspiracy of the "patriarchy" doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that women are still, in many ways, second class citizens.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    ... I suppose equality. I don't label myself a feminist, I don't agree with the theory of patriarchy. Somehow, I suspect you haven't read up on what is required to say you subscribe to the ideology of feminism.

    Just because I don't believe that women's inequalities are caused a conspiracy of the "patriarchy" doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that women are still, in many ways, second class citizens.
    What about a male from a sink estate, what class is he? Third, fourth, fifth?

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    ... I suppose equality. I don't label myself a feminist, I don't agree with the theory of patriarchy. Somehow, I suspect you haven't read up on what is required to say you subscribe to the ideology of feminism.

    Just because I don't believe that women's inequalities are caused a conspiracy of the "patriarchy" doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that women are still, in many ways, second class citizens.
    I have learnt a little bit, but in the last 40 years, what disadvantage does a middle class born women have over me, someone in my sixth form called me a CHAV because I sound common, I haven't done any damage to a woman, and I have real respect for them as I know how hard looking after a house is. Whilst doing a levels on top I just Do not know why they take it out on the little guy, we haven't done anything.

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    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    Question: do you genuinely think that women can get away with any stupid behaviour simply because they have a fanny? And if so, then in what way?
    of course that's true, how could you even try to deny it?

    If a man goes on like a **** in public he gets a black eye. if a woman does the same, she deserves the same, but she won't get it because people want to **** her. Women get away with this sort of thing all the time, all over the world.
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    I have learnt a little bit, but in the last 40 years, what disadvantage does a middle class born women have over me
    They same could have been said 500 years ago. A rich or middle class woman could wield significant power over a working class / underclass man. But in relation to other wealthy or "noble" men, they were still subordinate. It is not their fault, and elevating men over women will not ameliorate this structural injustice.

    someone in my sixth form called me a CHAV because I sound common
    That person sounds like an asshat. It's a cruel and stupid thing to say.

    I haven't done any damage to a woman, and I have real respect for them as I know how hard looking after a house is
    Anyone can look after a house. I think what they are unhappy about is that, comparing like with like, women do not do as well as men in terms of the top jobs, the positions of authority etc.

    Whilst doing a levels on top I just Do not know why they take it out on the little guy, we haven't done anything.
    Do you mean women or the ruling class?
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    (Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)
    of course that's true, how could you even try to deny it?

    If a man goes on like a **** in public he gets a black eye. if a woman does the same, she deserves the same, but she won't get it because people want to **** her. Women get away with this sort of thing all the time, all over the world.
    A good example of this was a thread on here not so long ago where this girl came on and moaned about the fact that a man had called her ugly after she went and elbowed him in the back (because he was kissing his girlfriend in front of her).

    I was negged by many women and men for saying that it was pathetic that this woman had used violence against another person and that if she were a man being called ugly probably would have been a good outcome.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    They same could have been said 500 years ago. A rich or middle class woman could wield significant power over a working class / underclass man. But in relation to other wealthy or "noble" men, they were still subordinate. It is not their fault, and elevating men over women will not ameliorate this structural injustice.



    That person sounds like an asshat. It's a cruel and stupid thing to say.



    Anyone can look after a house. I think what they are unhappy about is that, comparing like with like, women do not do as well as men in terms of the top jobs, the positions of authority etc.



    Do you mean women or the ruling class?
    Bit elevating women over men would just result in exactly the same thing. It's fact, it would just turn old boy networks into old girl networks, why not just make it a competition between both genders, all classes, all races, have a standardized test for the top level jobs.

    I think they are thick anyway I beat them in my mock exams by a mile they got 64%, I got 87% afterwards I reminded him I was a dumb chav what did that make him?

    But why do they take it out on the average male, and what's a nice guy, I'm nice, if they are nice back, I read about them hating nice guys, I'm not too sure what they are. But what about me I'm not likely to get to the top either as I'm from the sink estates as you put it. Do they blame men as a whole, why, i'm not exactly setting out to hold them back, the potential lies in the individual, not the race or gender, surely? Trust me its a lot harder getting pused straight in the deep end from 14, looking after a house, and sorting out finances etc is not easy.

    The ruling class, they are responsible for the decay of society, and the feminists that spit out junk about us in the media, what did we do, os it because my reproductive system is outside of my body? Women are not to blame, I'm not a chauvinist, I have met great women who have told me to ignore the guy who called me a chav, been nice to me, told me that my mum's going to get better. I'm not blaming women as a whole as I'm not that nieve, but I have seen a lot of radical feminists compare men to dogs, what exactly did I do not as if I stopped them from becoming a C.E.O or a politician, or a surgeon, has nothing to do with me, or 99.9% of males, never has.

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    (Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)
    of course that's true, how could you even try to deny it?

    If a man goes on like a **** in public he gets a black eye. if a woman does the same, she deserves the same, but she won't get it because people want to **** her. Women get away with this sort of thing all the time, all over the world.
    Deny it? No, that's exactly where I was getting at if you bothered to read the posts after that.

    It's just that many people got annoyed at the first point I made (i.e. many women find that most men try to have sex with them rather than have a relationship with them). I can only get TSR to admit to it if I go down a certain line of logic rather than the other.
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    (Original post by HFerguson)
    123410char
    Ladies and gentleman take note, using red coloured text validates every point you make, and obviously as a result of this any reply you give is of course correct in every way. Oh wait.
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    (Original post by Okie dokie)
    Ladies and gentleman take note, using red coloured text validates every point you make, and obviously as a result of this any reply you give is of course correct in every way. Oh wait.
    I was using red bold text to indicate my commentary, as opposed to the bits that the OP had written that I bolded ....
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    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    1) Women are likely to reject you if you seem interested, but they would be intrigued by you if you don't show any interest in them.

    2) Girls don't know what they want.

    3) Girls don't like sex.

    4) Girls go for *******s
    okay... I like your suggested explanations. Here's mine ...

    1) some women like being chased, yes, but sometimes they like the chase too. I have turned down guys who have keenly shown interest in me and instead like to pursue ones who show no interest in me. I like the challenge and the thrill of the chase and go with my gut instincts. I like being chased too but if someone was to ask me out, I like them to persist and show originality and not just do it on a whim or I find out a week later they've asked someone else out or been rejected by another girl a week before and moved onto me. I like to feel special and he has to show genuine interest in me and not just go by 'I think you look fit' :rolleyes:

    2) I agree that often girls hope that the guy knows enough about them to know what to say and do without being told. A girl liked it when a guy is attentive, a keen listener and genuinely interested in them as a person. I don't think that's the same as girls not knowing what they want. A lot of people in general may not know what they want or they are constantly changing their minds as they learn more about the world and society and from their past experiences.

    3) Girls have lower sex drives than men. That is an accepted inherent difference between males and females. I agree that it's a lot harder to truly satisfy a girl sexually than a guy. I read somewhere that some women never orgasm in their lives cos they don't have sensitive enough nerve endings. So some women just accept that and feel that sex isn't as enjoyable as it could be. Whereas men are satisfied a lot easier and quicker than women.

    4) I think girls don't go out looking for a ******** but often when they find out their man is one, it's too late and they've already fallen for him. By then it's harder to let go and find someone new. Also I am stereotyping a bit here but often the ********* are ones who are confident, good looking, charismatic and naturally flirty and just all round good with women etc which are superficially attractive traits. They know how to make a woman feel good. It's only when you get to know them that their true colours show. They know how to get instant gratification and often are terrible in maintaining long term stable committed relationships. And often the girl gets hurt when she realises this. They fall for the exterior and persona.
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    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    x
    I read the article(in your OP) and while I thought there was some truth in it I also thought that there was some stuff that was harsh. There was some stuff I didn't think that applied to me too, but it might apply to other guys.

    Please give your perspective on this topic, do women want men to take charge? In what way? Do they want men to make the decisions? From a personal perspective I'm more than willing to make the decisions with regard to where to go out and the like but I also think it's rude not to make sure that everyone is happy about the situation. Lets say I wanted to see the last Bond movie that came out. Now, I would enjoy that but I know more than one girl who just couldn't care less about Bond. Or possibly would it be better to approach like this, "I want to do this, what about you?(as in, do you want to do this too or do you have a better idea?)" rather than say, "what do you want to do?" Or perhaps in the case of going to the cinema, "Do you want to go to the cinema?" "Sure" "Ok, lets see <blah>."

    Part of the article spoke about compromise and negotiating. Now, going back to the cinema example. I may really want to go to the cinema. I may want to see a certain film but she might not. In this scenario I think my motives are more to do with going to the cinema(what can I say? I really enjoy it) than giving in. Would you say it's a matter of, depending on how much she opposes seeing the film you want to see, persisting rather than giving in?

    Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."
    Thoughts on this? I found it a little hyperbolic and also untrue.

    The next paragraph is flawed too. While I agree that someone can be romantically loved by more than one person if you do meet someone you're going to spend the rest of your life with then by definition you should be the best person for each other.

    Sorry, I've got another next paragraph. Which I think is not very well thought out. It's not inherently wrong to need someone to be happy, per se. It's when that love is not returned that it becomes problematic. I mean, yeah, it's a little unhealthy but I don't see how that kind of love is ALWAYS bad.

    The rest of article descends further.
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    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    Deny it? No, that's exactly where I was getting at if you bothered to read the posts after that.

    It's just that many people got annoyed at the first point I made (i.e. many women find that most men try to have sex with them rather than have a relationship with them). I can only get TSR to admit to it if I go down a certain line of logic rather than the other.
    Another Q, is there really anything inherently wrong with just wanting sex from someone? Though that said I'd probably want to be at least friends with the girl first. What I'm saying is I don't think sex is conditional on a relationship. I hope I'm making sense there.
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    this is hilarious
 
 
 
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