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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Some Scots seem not to realise two things:
1. There are 4 countries in the union, not 2.
2. Devolution grants 3 of these members more rights as individual states to govern themselves than the one alleged to be pulling all the strings.
If anyone should be pushing for independence it should be England-what a shame that idiots like the EDL would hijack it for their own agenda.
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
1. There are 4 countries in the union, not 2.
2. Devolution grants 3 of these members more rights as individual states to govern themselves than the one alleged to be pulling all the strings.
If anyone should be pushing for independence it should be England-what a shame that idiots like the EDL would hijack it for their own agenda.
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
Original post by Good bloke
Er, most historians would agree that the English lost the Hundred Years War, despite winning all of the big battles.
And we're back to who said/did what in the fifteenth century.
i never understood why there was so much animosity in the Balkans over what happened centuries earlier. I guess that's what nationalism does. It's a backward looking philosophy.
Original post by MatureStudent36
And we're back to who said/did what in the fifteenth century.
i never understood why there was so much animosity in the Balkans over what happened centuries earlier. I guess that's what nationalism does. It's a backward looking philosophy.
i never understood why there was so much animosity in the Balkans over what happened centuries earlier. I guess that's what nationalism does. It's a backward looking philosophy.
Well, I never raised the matter; I was just correcting what I thought might be a mistake.
In fact, the whole basis for the SNP's desire for independence is the past. They hanker after what they see as past glories, try to stir up nationalistic feelings over mediaeval Scottish victories and complain about the injustice of a union freely entered into. Unfortunately they gloss over the fact that the last war between England and Scotland resulted in disaster for the Scots and, in particular, their king at the biggest Anglo-Scottish battle of all, Flodden.
Original post by MatureStudent36
How can you say English votes only count in Westminster? It's a democracy, we all have an equal vote. And you seem to think that there is some huge difference between somebody born and living either side of an arbitary line on a map. Have you ever studied in England? Worked in England? Lived in England? I also find your comments disinginuise to teh Welsh and Northern Irish. Are they different to you?
It really is becoming embarrassing how some elements in Scotland are viewing themselves. The navel gazing I'm seeing is shocking. I truely find it amazing that Salmond can promote an idealised image of Scotland when so many of it's supporters seem to be so insular in their outlook.
It really is becoming embarrassing how some elements in Scotland are viewing themselves. The navel gazing I'm seeing is shocking. I truely find it amazing that Salmond can promote an idealised image of Scotland when so many of it's supporters seem to be so insular in their outlook.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I mean is that when you vote in England, e.g. for your MP then that MP only has a voice on issues concerning England. Those MPs chosen in Scotland have a say on both Scottish and English issues. Of course the Welsh and Northern Irish have their own Assemblies, and the same principle applies. It’s called the West Lothian Question. And to answer your question I am living in England for the past 6 years and to say that the Scottish are narrow minded is a bit rude, everyone wants what is best for them. If they see becoming an independent state as a way to achieve that then we have no right to say no.
Original post by Kaiser MacCleg
That's not really an accurate description of the situation. Realistically, the only votes that count in Westminster general elections are those few cast in marginal constituencies. Voters in any constituency that isn't likely to change hands, or indeed voters in marginal constituencies who vote for candidates who were never going to win, are all equally disenfranchised, by they from Scotland, England or the Isles of Scilly
That's not really an accurate description of the situation. Realistically, the only votes that count in Westminster general elections are those few cast in marginal constituencies. Voters in any constituency that isn't likely to change hands, or indeed voters in marginal constituencies who vote for candidates who were never going to win, are all equally disenfranchised, by they from Scotland, England or the Isles of Scilly
Thanks for explaining my point. This just shows how unfair the electoral system is and its a shame that we are stuck with FPTP for the foreseeable future. The Scottish Parliament, Welsh and North Ireland's Assemblies all use proportional representation and it seems to work fine.
Original post by sandra95
Thanks for explaining my point. This just shows how unfair the electoral system is and its a shame that we are stuck with FPTP for the foreseeable future. The Scottish Parliament, Welsh and North Ireland's Assemblies all use proportional representation and it seems to work fine.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Neither is farer than the other.
would you explain the disadvantages of first past the post.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Piprod01
I think there is enough political difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK to justify separation. We've currently got a conservative government with an idealogical goal of shrinking the state; reducing welfare, layoffs for public sector employees.
I think Paul Krugman pretty convincingly shows the current drive for austerity to be lead by neo-liberal ideology, that is simply using the current financial situation to fight poverty with poverty.
I think Paul Krugman pretty convincingly shows the current drive for austerity to be lead by neo-liberal ideology, that is simply using the current financial situation to fight poverty with poverty.
Calling something "ideological" is usually nothing more than a cheap trick to avoid debating an issue. Of course every political decision is underpinned by ideology. Anything else isn't politics, it's administration.
"Fight poverty with poverty"? That's even less meaningful.
The only way I can see to avoid this is to split ourselves politically from the rest of the UK, since the people of Scotland tend to have a bigger view of what the government should provide. While the details of Independence may not be set in stone, it's not like issues like EU membership / having job prospects are any sure thing if we stay.
So it's alright if we're shafted, because we might be shafted anyway?
The rest of us work on probabilities. An independent Scotland is more likely to be poorer. An independent Scotland is more likely to find itself outside of the EU: more importantly, it is less likely to be able to cope outside of the EU.
But that's not even the issue. The point about EU membership is that renegotiated entry would harm our interests. There is no chance of the UK renegotiating entry to the EU. The same issues simply do not apply.
Original post by Mockery
Yorkshire has 52 MPs and got broken into several ridings as well as losing area due to border changes, yet we don't complain.
Maybe you can go for independence.
all you need is some natural resources that you can convince yourself will mean a Saudi style lifestyle and then become bitter that others are taking away from you forgetting they share their goodies with you.
promise the electorate lots of welfare related things and promise to simultaneously cut taxes.
ignore 300 years of history and focus on the past much further back than that. Might I recommend you play on some perceived wrong from say the war of the roses. Claim something along the lines that you have been oppressed ever since by the house of Lancaster and as such have been cheated out ofyour destiny.
Attempt to isolate your youth by teaching Yorkist centric history and encouraging them as much as possible to go to university in Yorkshire so as to ensure that they don't mix with people outside Yorkshire to perpetuate the myth of being different.
get your politicians to lie about the implications, and continuing to tell the same lie even after they've found out.
employ about fifty dullards to bombard comments boards on news papers and chat rooms repeating these lies and to attempt to give the impression that because there's a lot of posts then the majority of the population agree with you.
use the same dullards to conduct on line personal attacks against any expert or politician that criticises you.
Set up a website called newsnetyorkshire that the aforementioned dullards can cut and paste from and claim it as a reliable source.
ignore global and national recessions and claim that only you are being impacted.
Pick one political area of the uk to claim is picking on you. Ignoring other areas of the uk in your argument as if they don't exist.
Get yorkshiremen elected to key positions such as prime minister and chancellor and then claim your not represented in parliament.
attempt to sign up a motley crew of tax avoiding lovies who get emotionally attached to the argument.
Promise two successful Yorkshire business men huge tax breaks to spread the word everything will be fine. Ignoring the fact that seven out of ten businesses don't want it.
claim to be inclusive yet discreetly play on base tribal fears of anybody who sounds a little different or want born in a certain area.
Keep telling yourself you will sit at the top table and succeed whilst squandering £700 million on a tram line in York.
promote NATO membership whilst simultaneously threatening to shut down RAF Filingdales to appease CND types to keep up a socialist pretence.
claim the banking crisis wouldn't have affected you even though your political leader promoted the most reckless of behaviour.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
Maybe you can go for independence.
all you need is some natural resources that you can convince yourself will mean a Saudi style lifestyle and then become bitter that others are taking away from you forgetting they share their goodies with you.
promise the electorate lots of welfare related things and promise to simultaneously cut taxes.
ignore 300 years of history and focus on the past much further back than that. Might I recommend you play on some perceived wrong from say the war of the roses. Claim something along the lines that you have been oppressed ever since by the house of Lancaster and as such have been cheated out ofyour destiny.
Attempt to isolate your youth by teaching Yorkist centric history and encouraging them as much as possible to go to university in Yorkshire so as to ensure that they don't mix with people outside Yorkshire to perpetuate the myth of being different.
get your politicians to lie about the implications, and continuing to tell the same lie even after they've found out.
employ about fifty dullards to bombard comments boards on news papers and chat rooms repeating these lies and to attempt to give the impression that because there's a lot of posts then the majority of the population agree with you.
use the same dullards to conduct on line personal attacks against any expert or politician that criticises you.
ignore global and national recessions and claim that only you are being impacted.
Pick one political area of the uk to claim is picking on you. Ignoring other areas of the uk in your argument as if they don't exist.
Get yorkshiremen elected to key positions such as prime minister and chancellor and then claim your not represented in parliament.
attempt to sign up a motley crew of tax avoiding lovies who get emotionally attached to the argument.
Promise two successful Yorkshire business men huge tax breaks to spread the word everything will be fine. Ignoring the fact that seven out of ten businesses don't want it.
claim to be inclusive yet discreetly play on base tribal feats of anybody who sounds a little different or want born in a certain area.
all you need is some natural resources that you can convince yourself will mean a Saudi style lifestyle and then become bitter that others are taking away from you forgetting they share their goodies with you.
promise the electorate lots of welfare related things and promise to simultaneously cut taxes.
ignore 300 years of history and focus on the past much further back than that. Might I recommend you play on some perceived wrong from say the war of the roses. Claim something along the lines that you have been oppressed ever since by the house of Lancaster and as such have been cheated out ofyour destiny.
Attempt to isolate your youth by teaching Yorkist centric history and encouraging them as much as possible to go to university in Yorkshire so as to ensure that they don't mix with people outside Yorkshire to perpetuate the myth of being different.
get your politicians to lie about the implications, and continuing to tell the same lie even after they've found out.
employ about fifty dullards to bombard comments boards on news papers and chat rooms repeating these lies and to attempt to give the impression that because there's a lot of posts then the majority of the population agree with you.
use the same dullards to conduct on line personal attacks against any expert or politician that criticises you.
ignore global and national recessions and claim that only you are being impacted.
Pick one political area of the uk to claim is picking on you. Ignoring other areas of the uk in your argument as if they don't exist.
Get yorkshiremen elected to key positions such as prime minister and chancellor and then claim your not represented in parliament.
attempt to sign up a motley crew of tax avoiding lovies who get emotionally attached to the argument.
Promise two successful Yorkshire business men huge tax breaks to spread the word everything will be fine. Ignoring the fact that seven out of ten businesses don't want it.
claim to be inclusive yet discreetly play on base tribal feats of anybody who sounds a little different or want born in a certain area.
You've put a lot of thought into this, maybe there is a spot for you in my parliament
Original post by Mockery
You've put a lot of thought into this, maybe there is a spot for you in my parliament
which one? I'm not very competent.
if you want to I could come down to Yorkshire and help you start up the independence movement. We could do with a slogan. 'It's Yorkshires puddings!'
I'll contact mel Gibson and see if he can make a film about Richard, duke of York where he plays the duke. We won't bother basing it on historical fact or anything. He can rally the troops with the cry of sup up and we can get the theme tune to corrie playing in it for artistic effect to pull at the heart strings.
I'll need you to get a patriotic song as our new anthem. Preferably one written by a folk singer in the 60's.
All we need as well is 70% of the population of Yorkshire to not believe in our goals, any self respecting proud Yorkshireman living outside of Yorkshire to cringe with embarrassment as to whats happening and we're onto a winner.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Katiekj25
Good thing. I think every country has a right to be independent if it wants to. It's not as if England and Scotland are going to be at war. We'd be good neighbours.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Not quite war. But the SNP seem to be doing their best to create division and distrust with our neighbours South of the border.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/eu-budget-cuts-will-favour-the-english-says-snp-1-2800036
She continued: “Scotland (Sic) Wales and Northern Ireland also face significant reductions, whilst England could receive an increase.
I don't care what a politician is promising me in the future, but when they try and turn people against each other I get very worried.; Very worried indeed.
Interstingly though reports have come out about Child poverty. Contrary to what the SNP have been saying to us that we're being disadbantaged, we seem to be performing better than other area's of the UK.....contrary to what we''re being told, so no evidence of victimisation. Still, they must continue with that line to promote division.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Not quite war. But the SNP seem to be doing their best to create division and distrust with our neighbours South of the border.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/eu-budget-cuts-will-favour-the-english-says-snp-1-2800036
She continued: “Scotland (Sic) Wales and Northern Ireland also face significant reductions, whilst England could receive an increase.
I don't care what a politician is promising me in the future, but when they try and turn people against each other I get very worried.; Very worried indeed.
Interstingly though reports have come out about Child poverty. Contrary to what the SNP have been saying to us that we're being disadbantaged, we seem to be performing better than other area's of the UK.....contrary to what we''re being told, so no evidence of victimisation. Still, they must continue with that line to promote division.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/eu-budget-cuts-will-favour-the-english-says-snp-1-2800036
She continued: “Scotland (Sic) Wales and Northern Ireland also face significant reductions, whilst England could receive an increase.
I don't care what a politician is promising me in the future, but when they try and turn people against each other I get very worried.; Very worried indeed.
Interstingly though reports have come out about Child poverty. Contrary to what the SNP have been saying to us that we're being disadbantaged, we seem to be performing better than other area's of the UK.....contrary to what we''re being told, so no evidence of victimisation. Still, they must continue with that line to promote division.
One of the odd things about the way the SNP constantly try to find evidence of victimisation against Scotland like this, is that Salmond has made a great thing of Scotland "moving on from victimhood" and being a proud nation, etc, on equal terms with the ghastly English. Seems like they want to have it both ways.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
One of the odd things about the way the SNP constantly try to find evidence of victimisation against Scotland like this, is that Salmond has made a great thing of Scotland "moving on from victimhood" and being a proud nation, etc, on equal terms with the ghastly English. Seems like they want to have it both ways.
I just don't know how they can promote a culture of victimisation and grief whoring and expect us to be a successful seperate nation?
Original post by MatureStudent36
Not quite war. But the SNP seem to be doing their best to create division and distrust with our neighbours South of the border.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/eu-budget-cuts-will-favour-the-english-says-snp-1-2800036
She continued: “Scotland (Sic) Wales and Northern Ireland also face significant reductions, whilst England could receive an increase.
I don't care what a politician is promising me in the future, but when they try and turn people against each other I get very worried.; Very worried indeed.
Interstingly though reports have come out about Child poverty. Contrary to what the SNP have been saying to us that we're being disadbantaged, we seem to be performing better than other area's of the UK.....contrary to what we''re being told, so no evidence of victimisation. Still, they must continue with that line to promote division.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/eu-budget-cuts-will-favour-the-english-says-snp-1-2800036
She continued: “Scotland (Sic) Wales and Northern Ireland also face significant reductions, whilst England could receive an increase.
I don't care what a politician is promising me in the future, but when they try and turn people against each other I get very worried.; Very worried indeed.
Interstingly though reports have come out about Child poverty. Contrary to what the SNP have been saying to us that we're being disadbantaged, we seem to be performing better than other area's of the UK.....contrary to what we''re being told, so no evidence of victimisation. Still, they must continue with that line to promote division.
Actually, this is very, very cheap rhetoric. To an extent, the SNP's position is being talked-up by the press, but the position that's presented there is utterly baseless. The Multiannual Financial Framework, essentially the EU's budget, just sets ceiling limits on spending. Actual spending is always billions and billions of Euros below this level. On an intra-UK level, things simply haven't been worked out.
The SNP have extrapolated nonsense figures from this, which are indicative of nothing. Either way, what may well happen is that EU structural funds are - to some level - diverted from wealthy countries like the UK to genuinely poorer ones. Which I think is admirable and a better economic investment for the European taxpayer.
Original post by L i b
Actually, this is very, very cheap rhetoric. To an extent, the SNP's position is being talked-up by the press, but the position that's presented there is utterly baseless. The Multiannual Financial Framework, essentially the EU's budget, just sets ceiling limits on spending. Actual spending is always billions and billions of Euros below this level. On an intra-UK level, things simply haven't been worked out.
The SNP have extrapolated nonsense figures from this, which are indicative of nothing. Either way, what may well happen is that EU structural funds are - to some level - diverted from wealthy countries like the UK to genuinely poorer ones. Which I think is admirable and a better economic investment for the European taxpayer.
The SNP have extrapolated nonsense figures from this, which are indicative of nothing. Either way, what may well happen is that EU structural funds are - to some level - diverted from wealthy countries like the UK to genuinely poorer ones. Which I think is admirable and a better economic investment for the European taxpayer.
The structural funds have basically enabled Scotland to "keep open" the Highlands and Western Isles, these areas have been deeply unviable economically in the past, but the construction of roads using the money, subsidies for ferries and schools and the provision of island councils and so on, have all managed to bring about a mild recovery. They may find this difficult to sustain in the longer-term, but this seems to be one of a number of areas of very generous public spending in Scotland which are supported externally and which will be in trouble in a fiscally separated country. The SNP's real agenda is to point the finger of blame for this at anything but their own plan for independence.
Original post by L i b
Actually, this is very, very cheap rhetoric. To an extent, the SNP's position is being talked-up by the press, but the position that's presented there is utterly baseless. The Multiannual Financial Framework, essentially the EU's budget, just sets ceiling limits on spending. Actual spending is always billions and billions of Euros below this level. On an intra-UK level, things simply haven't been worked out.
The SNP have extrapolated nonsense figures from this, which are indicative of nothing. Either way, what may well happen is that EU structural funds are - to some level - diverted from wealthy countries like the UK to genuinely poorer ones. Which I think is admirable and a better economic investment for the European taxpayer.
The SNP have extrapolated nonsense figures from this, which are indicative of nothing. Either way, what may well happen is that EU structural funds are - to some level - diverted from wealthy countries like the UK to genuinely poorer ones. Which I think is admirable and a better economic investment for the European taxpayer.
How dare you imply that the SNP have used nonsense figures......... Oh yes, I forgot. They normally do.
In answer to the original question good or bad.
even salmond a advisor is saying bad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9884765/Independent-Scotland-should-dump-pound-if-it-wants-control-over-tax.html
even salmond a advisor is saying bad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9884765/Independent-Scotland-should-dump-pound-if-it-wants-control-over-tax.html
Original post by MatureStudent36
In answer to the original question good or bad.
even salmond a advisor is saying bad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9884765/Independent-Scotland-should-dump-pound-if-it-wants-control-over-tax.html
even salmond a advisor is saying bad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9884765/Independent-Scotland-should-dump-pound-if-it-wants-control-over-tax.html
You are quite literally a mouthpiece for the No campaign aren't you? The way you go on you'd think Labour did a fantastic job and the SNP came in and blew your house up. Why even waste your time writing things in your own words actually? Why not just go onto the Daily Record or the Better Together Facebook page and use Ctrl+C followed by Ctrl+V. It's quite easy really, I'm sure even you can manage it.
Original post by Tycho
You are quite literally a mouthpiece for the No campaign aren't you? The way you go on you'd think Labour did a fantastic job and the SNP came in and blew your house up. Why even waste your time writing things in your own words actually? Why not just go onto the Daily Record or the Better Together Facebook page and use Ctrl+C followed by Ctrl+V. It's quite easy really, I'm sure even you can manage it.
Attack the person. How novel of you. Is it a standard approach of your kind?
labour havent done a particularly great job, and if you read my other posts on other threads you may realise I'm far from a labour supporter. I'm deeply untrusting of any politician or political party. I'm what you'd call a floating voter. What I'm not willing to do is listen to a party that keeps telling me to trust in their future, believe them without question, critise anybody who questions their statements, and put my faith in them when there message is of division and promoting victimisation in order to sow further division.
the SNP haven't blown my house up, but they are proposing is an unsustainable future that will affect my income, retirement, investments and job opportunity as well as leave me in a position that I have family living in different countries.
Their technique is if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. I'm sorry but I never fall for Fox news style propoganda. Unlike many SNP supporters who seem to without question cut and paste from newsnetscotland, I get my media inputs from a wide variety if sources and make my own mind up based on reason and assessment. Not some idealistic nonsense based on some romantic ideal of the past, funded by windmills, dwindling oil supplies coupled with reducing oil prices and whiskey will save us all, while the politicians will scrabble to get a job in Brussels.
I'm being lied to on a daily basis and I can see through those lies. I worry that many others can't. They will base their vote on perceived wrongs that the English have caused against us because some chopper keeps messaging them that.
(edited 11 years ago)
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